Fixing the lack of pash rush: scheme, draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter King!)

[sieglo]

Re: Fixing the Lack of Pash Rush- Scheme, Draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

Logical statement. I'd rather have the pressure and possibly a pick for a potential TD rather than a sack master.

The answer then is obviously to draft a sack master and then train him not to complete the sack.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Fixing the Lack of Pash Rush- Scheme, Draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

Merriman had 10 sacks as a rookie.
Ware had 8 sacks as a rookie.
Wimbley had 11 sacks as a rookie.

They didn't peak as rookies but they made a significant difference.

As noted above, Orakpo has 7 sacks his rookie season.

This is just like saying rookie QB or WR don't have a big impact. They don't have a big impact if you choose to exclude those that do. Is it likely ? No. Is it 50-50 ? No. Is it reasonably possible ? Absolutely.

Please show me which Patriots LB had 10 or more sacks in any one season other than Vrabel in 2007 since BB got here..

You can't. The SCHEME doesn't allow for them. If they happen, great. But BB prefers getting pressure on the QB and causing a turnover rather than getting just the sack. BB's schemes were most successful when he could bring the pass rush from any of the 4 LBer positions. Yes, the OLBs were still the key pass rushers, but the ILBs also provided pressure at various times. And it was that variation that allowed them to be successful.

The Pats still need to add to the OLB/DE position. But they need players who are good in 2 of 3 areas and who they feel can develop that 3rd area. There seem to be a lot of good DEs/OLBs coming out this year. Possibly even better than last year's crop.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: Fixing the Lack of Pash Rush- Scheme, Draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

Logical statement. I'd rather have the pressure and possibly a pick for a potential TD rather than a sack master.

Gimme the guy who's gonna finnish the job. A strip sack is more likely than an INT for a TD. We pressured Eli and look what happened.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Re: Fixing the Lack of Pash Rush- Scheme, Draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

Gimme the guy who's gonna finnish the job. A strip sack is more likely than an INT for a TD. We pressured Eli and look what happened.

Yea, a 1-in-1 million chance reception by a no-name receiver in the biggest game ever.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Re: Fixing the Lack of Pash Rush- Scheme, Draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

Please show me which Patriots LB had 10 or more sacks in any one season other than Vrabel in 2007 since BB got here..

You can't. The SCHEME doesn't allow for them. If they happen, great. But BB prefers getting pressure on the QB and causing a turnover rather than getting just the sack. BB's schemes were most successful when he could bring the pass rush from any of the 4 LBer positions. Yes, the OLBs were still the key pass rushers, but the ILBs also provided pressure at various times. And it was that variation that allowed them to be successful.

The Pats still need to add to the OLB/DE position. But they need players who are good in 2 of 3 areas and who they feel can develop that 3rd area. There seem to be a lot of good DEs/OLBs coming out this year. Possibly even better than last year's crop.

Correct but the bellweather of a BB defense is some kind of pass rush production from D-line as well. Wright has 4 sacks. Warren has one- thats it.

In all the sucessful years, there are one- of not 2 DE/DL individuals who are in the 5-8 sack range. Their sacks may come from protection sliding over to defend the edge, individual effort, etc, but the fact is that with the exception of Wright, the team had gotten virtually no pressure from the d-line. Now, that may be because the opposing offense doesn't respect the pass rush from the edge ( I dont think I've seen AD, Burgess doubled once this year) and believe that they can handle whomever with 1:1 blocking.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Fixing the lack of pash rush: scheme, draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

Apparently, the goal is to have lots of sacks rather than keeping the opponents from scoring. Our top 10 defense accomplishes the second goal but not the first.

And with regard to redzone performance, there are two components. First, keep the other team out of the red zone. Second, when they get there (a failure), limit thier points. The patriots succeed at the first but not the second. It is also critical to limit big, which the team did except against New Orleans.

The goal is to score more points than the opponents. Our OK defense has played well enough to win and even to look pretty good with regard to points allowed.

It is very. very frustrating to do your job, only too see a "great" offense fail time after time in the second half.

Our defense is simply not a top 3 defense. They cannot win the game on their own.

For the first time in a long time, I actually found some interesting insight by Peter King today.

Basically he showed that it is very difficult to draft a passrusher that makes a difference. In the last 2 years, no guys in the first two rounds have had more than 8 sacks TOTAL: Can't anyone here rush the passer?

So where does that leave the Pats? Their ability to draft well not-withstanding, this definitely does not bode well for our hope of getting a stud pass-rusher in the draft. And if anything even if you get one, it'll likely take him a couple of years to develop.

So where does that leave us? A change in scheme? A free agent?

Unfortunately I think the FA route is less likely due to the whole CBA/Uncapped year mess.

This is all just my interpretation but it seems rather sobering. To me the best chance is simply having some of the young guys continue to develop and to step up.

Thoughts?

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: Fixing the Lack of Pash Rush- Scheme, Draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

Yea, a 1-in-1 million chance reception by a no-name receiver in the biggest game ever.

Ok, Big Ben, Peyton Manning, Joe Flacco etc they all have ways avoid the pass rush. Weather it be moving around in the pocket or just being big strong QBs. We need to bring him down when we get their, playoff qbs will make you pay if you don't and Eli did.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Re: Fixing the Lack of Pash Rush- Scheme, Draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

The stats are somewhat flawed. Players on that list have been in the league 5-6 years, but have also been getting to the QB the entire time as well. Look at anyone one of those guys, and once they were inserted into the starting lineup (even as rookies) they all have 8+ sacks a year.

Sacks are actually not particularly telling of the kind of pass rush a team gets. I've seen Trent Cole kill a QB as he lets the ball go 5 or so times a game. The ball just bounces somewhere incomplete. That's just as good as a sack, and if time is of the essence, it's better. A decent pass rusher makes everyone else's life easier. All we have for a pass rush is Dean Pees' creativity because we're not getting into the backfield any other way.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Re: Fixing the lack of pash rush: scheme, draft, FA? (with actual insight by Peter Ki

The problems with the pass rush are scheme related more than talent related, but there are still some issues with the talent. Our defense is a gap control, read and react defense that isn't about blitzing and being aggressive. Our defense is constantly labeled bend but don't break, and that's exactly what we do most of the time. You look at the 3-4 the Ravens and Steelers and Jets play, and it's a get after the QB, bring more guys than you can block, get in your face, attacking defense that forces the issue and causes confusion.

Look at AD on the Ravens as opposed to his time with us. He was a monster with the Ravens who could either drop back or come after the QB. That's what was so great about him. He was great in their disguising blitz packages because he was just as good at getting after the QB as he was in dropping back into coverage and covering anyone. That's why he got the big bucks.

Another example is the Jets. Look at how David Harris and Bart Scott get after the QB on a consistent basis. They might not rack up huge sack totals but when you watch them they are changing the game by making the QB get rid of the ball before he wants to. You watch our D play and what do our two middle LB's do? Almost everyplay Mayo and Guyton drop back 5 yards from the LOS and play a soft zone where they are supposed to read and react to the play.

I think this style of defense that we played worked well in the early part of the decade because a) we had amazing personnel and b) the NFL wasn't as pass happy as it is now. The defense that we are running IMO helps you stop the run. When you control and clog up gaps it leaves you nowhere to go on the ground and lets the LB's come in and make the tackles. However, I think this defense is a little suspect in the passing game unless you have guys that are great cover corners. I think the Ravens, Jets, Steelers, and Chargers all play the 3-4 style that is more conducive to the modern NFL. That is the one-gap 3-4. This defense is all about penetration of the O-line and getting to the RB in the backfield in the running game and getting to the QB in the passing game. It's not just a coincidence that the Ravens and Steelers have been the two of the top defenses over the last decade in Opp YPG and turnovers forced. It's also not a coincidence the Jets are the #1 defense vs the pass this year.

You look at the talent we have, and yes we could definitely use a young OLB who's big strong fast and can get after the QB. But we still have Adalius Thomas and Derrick Burgess, who have been good pass rushers throughout their careers and couldn't have just suddenly fallen off a cliff. Mayo and Guyton are also two strong, fast, young athletes who I think would also benefit from more of an attacking defense. Over the past few years, we have gotten younger and faster and more athletic on defense. Mayo, Guyton, Meriweather, Chung, Butler, etc. I thought with these additions we'd see more of an attacking defense, especially with a young secondary. An attacking defense with a good pass rush helps your CB's out by not making them have to cover as long.

I think our defensive problems have stemmed much more from the scheme we are running rather than the talent we have. But I don't think BB is going to change his philosophy in the snap of a finger b/c this defense has gotten him to 4 SB's in which he's come out on top 3 times. It should be interesting to see how the D plays down the stretch.