Excellent article on Shane Vereen article by Greg Bedard

[BTTA]

Others (Like Crable, Ras-I, etc) don't.

Pease provide the link to this info. Very interested. Thanks.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

How did 2012 Woodhead outproduce Vereen's 2013 numbers, when I just showed otherwise?

Vereen had a higher number of receptions, the same # of TD's via reception, and a higher yards per carry average at 4.7 vs 4.0.

All of this was on top of missing 1/2 the season, when Woodhead didn't miss a game last year.

And I don't agree with you that he didn't have blitz pickup capabilities that were certainly as equal or better than Danny Woodhead coming out of Cal. It's been discussed many times before here and in the draft threads. He may not have been great, but he was better than Woodhead--who was atrocious at times. Vereen never had good enough blitz pickup to be considered as an every down RB, especially since he was used to spending a lot of time split wide, but I am speaking as a primary 3rd down back. More specifically, I am using the comparison vs Danny Woodhead.

Anyone who thinks that keeping Vereen over Woodhead was a bad move is fooling themselves. Vereen has a much higher upside and would have blown Woodhead's numbers out of the water. The problem was that he suffered a broken wrist. Not only did we save precious cap space with the move, but we kept the player with a higher ceiling. Anytime that Belichick is able to keep the younger, faster, cheaper player with more upside in a close competition, he's almost always going to. We've seen that numerous times over the years, and we will see even more examples of that during this coming offseason.

747 yards and 7 TDs for 2012 Woodhead vs. 635 yards and 4 TDs for 2013 Vereen. You simply cherry picked stats that favored Vereen.

Woodhead atrocious at blitz pickup? You're serious?

Y! SPORTS
Blitz coverage and blocking are the areas where he has struggled to find consistency going back to when he came out of college, according to Pro Football Weekly.

Analysis of 2nd-round pick (B): Cal RB Shane Vereen - Extra Points - Boston.com
Blocking can be a little suspect. From OurLads Scouting: “(Against Oregon)
looked like he signed a non-aggression pact as a blocker in pass protection. A toe cutter when he does block.”

According to Vereen himself:

Transcript: Shane Vereen Conference Call

Q: Where do you need the most improvement?

SV: I think the area that I most need to improve on is my pass-protection technique.





Huh????
"Vereen never had good enough blitz pickup to be considered as an every down RB, especially since he was used to spending a lot of time split wide."
What????


Show me the part where I said keeping Vereen over Wooodhead was a bad move.

Does anybody else know of Belichicks secret plan to keep the younger, faster, cheaper player with more upside? What a novel concept.

 

[supafly]

Huh????
"Vereen never had good enough blitz pickup to be considered as an every down RB, especially since he was used to spending a lot of time split wide."
What????

I guess that you apparently didn't watch too many CAL games when he played there in his last season? Vereen caught 75 balls his final year there, and yes their offense used him in the same role that we have in many times. There were times that he was split wide too, although not as much as in N/England. Either way you look at it, he wasn't as used to blitz pickup because he was the target in the passing game. That isn't really debatable. All I said is that he was as good or better as Woodhead, who wasn't even drafted, was he? Why is that so controversial to you?

Just to refresh your memory, here's a tidbit from one of the scouting reports:

"He doesn’t have a ton of experience pass protecting as he was involved as a receiver in the passing game so often. However he is not afraid of pass protecting and sticks his nose in against bigger players really well."

Your follow up is a quote from a rookie 3rd down RB stating that he'll need to improve on his blocking skills at the faster, stronger, NFL level? Wow...I wouldn't imagine that too many 5'10" 3rd down backs would make a stunning comment like that one

The point is that his blitz pickup as a 3rd down back was fine, and I provided several quotes that stated such. I understand that Vereen stated that he needed to work on his NFL blitz pickup, as any reasonable rookie back is going to say the exact same thing, especially if he realizes that his size is going to be an issue and that he won't be able to offer services as an everydown back. Actually, if a rookie RB came here and said that he didn't have to work on his blitz pickup, I'd be very, very scared. I could just as easily find a Woodhead quote about his blitz pickup needing to be improved upon and make the exact same point.

I showed you how Vereen outproduced Woodhead in the passing game in only 50% of the games played due to his broken wrist. That is definitely not cherry picking anything or being selective at all, nor is pointing out the fact that Vereen even had a higher ypc at 4.7 vs Woodhead's 4.0; so he'd have blown him away in the running game too had he not broken his wrist and been out week 1--week 11. Hell, they were only about 93 yds apart in terms of total rushing, even though Vereen only played in 8 games. You're obviously correct that Woodhead had 3 more TD's than Vereen in the rushing category, even though Woodhead was either behind or barely ahead in the other aspects of the run game.

I'm not sure why you'd take such offense to these comments or have such a problem with them? I don't want to turn this into a pissing match, so let's just agree to disagree and move on, please and thanks.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

I guess that you apparently didn't watch too many CAL games when he played there in his last season? Vereen caught 75 balls his final year there, and yes their offense used him in the same role that we have in many times. There were times that he was split wide too, although not as much as in N/England. Either way you look at it, he wasn't as used to blitz pickup because he was the target in the passing game. That isn't really debatable. All I said is that he was as good or better as Woodhead, who wasn't even drafted, was he? Why is that so controversial to you?

Actually it is debatable, especially since he didn't catch 75 balls, he caught 22. He was their every down back and had a 231/22 rush to catch ratio. You said Woodhead's blitz pickup was atrocious.

Are you suggesting that draft status is a measure of how good a player is at blitz pickup? Controversial?????

Just to refresh your memory, here's a tidbit from one of the scouting reports:

"He doesn’t have a ton of experience pass protecting as he was involved as a receiver in the passing game so often. However he is not afraid of pass protecting and sticks his nose in against bigger players really well."

Great, an unattributed quote from an anonymous scout.

Your follow up is a quote from a rookie 3rd down RB stating that he'll need to improve on his blocking skills at the faster, stronger, NFL level? Wow...I wouldn't imagine that too many 5'10" 3rd down backs would make a stunning comment like that one
The point is that his blitz pickup as a 3rd down back was fine, and I provided several quotes that stated such. I understand that Vereen stated that he needed to work on his NFL blitz pickup, as any reasonable rookie back is going to say the exact same thing, especially if he realizes that his size is going to be an issue and that he won't be able to offer services as an everydown back. Actually, if a rookie RB came here and said that he didn't have to work on his blitz pickup, I'd be very, very scared. I could just as easily find a Woodhead quote about his blitz pickup needing to be improved upon and make the exact same point.

I see, we shouldn't listen to Vereen himself, instead we should to the nameless scout. If you easily could find a quote from Woodhead, then why don't you, instead of telling me what you could do?

I showed you how Vereen outproduced Woodhead in the passing game in only 50% of the games played due to his broken wrist. That is definitely not cherry picking anything or being selective at all, nor is pointing out the fact that Vereen even had a higher ypc at 4.7 vs Woodhead's 4.0; so he'd have blown him away in the running game too had he not broken his wrist and been out week 1--week 11. Hell, they were only about 93 yds apart in terms of total rushing, even though Vereen only played in 8 games. You're obviously correct that Woodhead had 3 more TD's than Vereen in the rushing category, even though Woodhead was either behind or barely ahead in the other aspects of the run game.

Total yards gained and TDs are pretty important measures of production. You are cherry picking stats that favor Vereen. You're using YPC as a measuring stick and Vereen only had 44 carries.

I'm not sure why you'd take such offense to these comments or have such a problem with them? I don't want to turn this into a pissing match, so let's just agree to disagree and move on, please and thanks.

Who's taking offense? I don't agree with your comments and said so. Why the hysterics?

I see, let's accept your half truths and misinterpretations as fact and move on - how noble.

 

[supafly]

Actually it is debatable, especially since he didn't catch 75 balls, he caught 22. He was their every down back and had a 231/22 rush to catch ratio. You said Woodhead's blitz pickup was atrocious.

Yes, the 75 catches were during the career, so that was nothing more than a mistype. Obviously I meant during his career, not in one season as a 3rd down back, but either way I apologize for the error and appreciate the correction.

It's no question whatsoever that Danny Woodhead was "atrocious" in his blitz pickups during the 2010 and 2011 seasons, although he did make some improvement down the stretch of 2011.

In 2012, which was his last year here, he made even more improvement. There was no doubt whatsoever that Belichick was forced to use Woodhead in that role since he was part of our hurry up package, knew that aspect of the hurry up better than anyone else, and offered the best RB for us in that situation. The downside of that was that we were forced to have to deal with Woodhead and his bad blitz pickups, where he was often completely run over. Many, many posters have had discussions on Woodhead's horrible blitz pickup attempts, specifically in the 2010 season. It's possibly one of the reasons why he went out and drafted Vereen in the upcoming draft. Woodhead was simply much too small to be anything more than a liability in that role. Again...I do believe that Woodhead made improvements in that area, particularly in the 2012 season, but overall he was certainly a liability in that area due to his size. I didn't realize that there actually was anyone who felt differently to be honest with you?

Who's taking offense? I don't agree with your comments and said so. Why the hysterics?

I see, let's accept your half truths and misinterpretations as fact and move on - how noble.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as "hysterics," but I simply asked you to tone it down a bit with the sarcasm, since it can be contagious and I started to reciprocate it myself. There's no reason for any of that. People have differences of opinions all the time without having to resort to such childish tactics, and you and I (along with plenty of others who you've had problems with) have had these conversations before. I asked that we not go 'round and 'round, as we obviously have a difference of opinions in how effective Vereen was in replacing Woodhead, and how "atrocious" Woodhead was with the blitz pickup due to lack of size, even though he obviously improved for the 2012 season pretty nicely.

As far as "half truths," this all started when I showed you that Vereen was MORE effective than Woodhead in the passing game last year. That is not a half truth. The yards per carry from 4.7 to 4.0 also proved that he was just effective in the run game as well, although he did not score as many TD's due to only playing in 50% of the games that Woodhead did. Even playing in only 8 games, Vereen was still within 93 yds of Woodhead's rushing total for 2012, so I'm not sure about what you're referring to as "half truths."

Again, I do apologize for the 75 reception comment, as anyone with half a brain would realize that a 3rd down back wouldn't have had that many college opportunities in one season, so that shows a horrible error on my part; although it was honestly just a mistype for whatever it may be worth to you.

As far as the "anonymous scouting sources" they can be found on the NFL.com draft site from that year, so I assumed that to be fairly reputable. I posted multiple examples of comments made that showed that while Vereen didn't have a tremendous amount of experience due to being used in the passing game so much, they did feel that he was viable enough with his blitz pickups, lower center of gravity, ability to take on larger players, etc. I'm not sure that others would see it as shrugging it off as some random comments, but obviously you are free to believe whatever you choose to.