Eagles put CB Samuel on trading block....

[supafly]

I'd take Dowling over Samuel

While he's far from anything remotely close to as accomplished as Asante at this point in his career (barely seeing the field), he probably has more overall raw skill and upside than Asante did coming out of college.

Dowling is much bigger, can play man coverage (unlike Samuel), is much more effective at being physical with his WR's off the line, is younger, is cheaper, and can actually tackle.

We'll be extremely lucky if Dowling ever amounts to anything close to Samuel, but he certainly has the potential to be a decent player when healthy.

Of course "potential" and proving yourself are 2 different things, but overall Samuel is overrated and overpaid--at least in my opinion.

It's also interesting that the entire NFL likely knows about his trade possibilities due to his/the Eagles comments, yet it doesn't seem like too many teams are beating the door down to get to him.

 

[supafly]

The problem is we might have good tacklers, but they aren't good at preventing the receiver from catching the ball.

I think Bill is okay with smart/controlled freelancing. Ty Law is the best patriots example -- he had the ability to make the qb think the receiver was open by drifting away from the receiver, and then to jump the route. None of our current cb's have that ability -- all they can do is try to stay on the receiver as close as possible.
Or when a great LB reads the QB to drop into coverage -- that's also freelancing, but its based on an educated guess.

Whereas dumb freelancing might've been the reason merriweather isn't here.

I think Samuel falls somewhere in the middle.

I think we saw a significant improvement when there was an adequate safety back there, as Chung's absence really affected the secondary overall. Even then (with Chung) the safety coverage skills aren't too good, but without him it was a disaster. I actually thought that the best combo was the use of McCourty back there at times, as the other CB's seemed to do a lot better.

Overall, yes--the NEP secondary is still in need of improvement. No doubt about that, but I think many here tend to blame the CB's a bit too much, as it's a partnership of sorts with the safeties too.

Ty Law is a great example, but I think all he did was bait the opposing QB to some degree. I suppose it's fair to say that is a form of freelancing, but not quite what I had in mind. Your thoughts are fair though, it's a good possibility that we may just see this situation a bit differently.

Even Law, as good as he was and as vital as he was to our success, was not going to be overpaid here by Belichick.

I think it's probably very understandable to admit that many will see Samuel's skills differently, and there will be disagreements on our assessments. That's probably pretty common for a lot of players across the NFL, as everyone has a different opinion.

What I can almost virtually guarantee anyone though, is that it does not seem as though Bill Belichick would bring him back for anything close to what his value is to some of the other teams.

 

[Deus Irae]

A league source tells CSN's Derrick Gunn that Samuel could be traded to the Tennessee Titans for a conditional third-round pick some time in the next few days.

A league source tells CSN's Derrick Gunn that Samuel could be traded to the Tennessee Titans for a conditional third-round pick some time in the next few days.

I don't normally point to PFF, since I despise the site, but here's a little something for those of you who like the site but are bagging on Samuel, from this same article:

Pro Football Focus graded Samuel as the fifth-best cornerback in the NFC last season. He was targeted 61 times but allowed just 29 receptions for 296 yards and two touchdowns.

Only one full-time NFL corner, Darrelle Revis, allowed a QB Rating lower than Samuel's 52.4.

 

[ATippett56]

*****$ante $$$amuel ... no way.

The New England Patriots can select a cornerback with the 62nd overall pick and not deal with *****$ante's outrageous salary demands.

NFL Draft - 2012 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

The New England Patriots defense needs to get younger not older. As proven last season, Shaun Ellis and Gerard Warren were not the answer at the 3-4 defensive end position.

 

[Deus Irae]

With all due respect Deus, you didn't finish my sentence.

He's better in 'some' areas.

He also is worse in some areas.

Seeing as how his pay would be at the very least 7+ million, he's not coming here.

I have a feeling that Belichick looks at him and sees many more flaws than some posters here, but that's just my thought.

The rest of your sentence was nothing more than "he's better in SOME areas". Samuel was a much better overall CB than anyone the Patriots put on the field last year.

 

[Deus Irae]

*****$ante $$$amuel ... no way.

The New England Patriots can select a cornerback with the 62nd overall pick and not deal with *****$ante's outrageous salary demands.

NFL Draft - 2012 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

The New England Patriots defense needs to get younger not older. As proven last season, Shaun Ellis and Gerard Warren were not the answer at the 3-4 defensive end position.

Brian Waters was 34. Andre Carter was 32. It's not about age, on either side of the ball, when you talk about being 'the answer'. It's about getting the job done. Some additions did and some didn't.

 

[supafly]

A league source tells CSN's Derrick Gunn that Samuel could be traded to the Tennessee Titans for a conditional third-round pick some time in the next few days.

I don't normally point to PFF, since I despise the site, but here's a little something for those of you who like the site but are bagging on Samuel, from this same article:

Those stats certainly make for a compelling argument, no doubt about that.

I do think that Samuel is one of the best in regards to certain zone coverage schemes, and also jumping routes; so I want to make that clear. I do not believe that he is as nearly effective in man to man, and we all know about his tackling problems. Everyone will have differing opinions on his body of work as a whole.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is it that most people don't care for, in regards to PFF? Is it cherry picking certain numbers, or just an overall analysis that doesn't take enough into consideration?

I'm familar with the site itself, and have looked to it for certain numbers, but I also have caught on quickly that a lot of posters don't value their info too much. Was this the site that had some weird 'value' stat that pointed out that Brady himself was ranked lower than some of the no-names of the league or something? Or am I referring to another situation?

 

[supafly]

The rest of your sentence was nothing more than "he's better in SOME areas". Samuel was a much better overall CB than anyone the Patriots put on the field last year.

I will agree that he was better in certain areas last yr, however there are also other variables to take into account for some of the problems of the secondary last year too.

There were key injuries, there were poor personnel decisions made, there was an early change of scheme that effected the first 3-4 games, and there was a definite lack of any kind of adequate safety help.

Your opinion may differ, but mine is that there is substantial talent back there as a whole. Whether some of those issues will be solved enough to see some of that talent and potential will remain to be seen until the season is underway, and a large enough sample can be determined.

You are right that a comparison of an 8-9 year vet pro bowler is not a good comparison to a bunch of young kids who haven't had much experience; so that is probably the main point here. Taking that into consideration, I also believe that as a whole, when you factor in some of the other key strengths and weaknesses, that some of our players will measure up much better than a lot would expect them to in comparison to Asante Samuel right now.

 

[Deus Irae]

I will agree that he was better in certain areas last yr, however there are also other variables to take into account for some of the problems of the secondary last year too.

There were key injuries, there were poor personnel decisions made, there was an early change of scheme that effected the first 3-4 games, and there was a definite lack of any kind of adequate safety help.

Your opinion may differ, but mine is that there is substantial talent back there as a whole. Whether some of those issues will be solved enough to see some of that talent and potential will remain to be seen until the season is underway, and a large enough sample can be determined.

You are right that a comparison of an 8-9 year vet pro bowler is not a good comparison to a bunch of young kids who haven't had much experience; so that is probably the main point here. Taking that into consideration, I also believe that as a whole, when you factor in some of the other key strengths and weaknesses, that some of our players will measure up much better than a lot would expect them to in comparison to Asante Samuel right now.

I don't know if it's the homer in you coming through too strong on this particular topic, or if you've got something personal against Samuel here, but come on. Michael Vick runs better as a QB than does Tom Brady. Tom Brady, however, is the better QB. Now, you can play similar games with Asante all you want, but, last season, he was a significantly better CB than anything the Patriots had on the field.

 

[supafly]

I don't know if it's the homer in you coming through too strong on this particular topic, or if you've got something personal against Samuel here, but come on. Michael Vick runs better as a QB than does Tom Brady. Tom Brady, however, is the better QB. Now, you can play similar games with Asante all you want, but, last season, he was a significantly better CB than anything the Patriots had on the field.

In all seriousness, I was honestly agreeing with you and stating the fact that my original thought was incorrect.

 

[supafly]

I don't know if it's the homer in you coming through too strong on this particular topic, or if you've got something personal against Samuel here, but come on. Michael Vick runs better as a QB than does Tom Brady. Tom Brady, however, is the better QB. Now, you can play similar games with Asante all you want, but, last season, he was a significantly better CB than anything the Patriots had on the field.

I also said that the stat that you posted about him being the #8th best ranked CB last yr (5th in the NFC) was certainly a compelling argument.

I am also saying that I believe that Belichick, incorrectly or not, values ALL of the attributes of a CB; and some of us as fans do, too.

Yes, there is no doubt that any comparison by me with the NEP's young and inexperienced CB's was not a good one.

I also do believe that Samuel is lacking in some very important areas. If you can't tackle well and play run support, you probably won't be as much of use as someone who can---even if their coverage skills are not as good. Belichick has done a decent enough job in the past at playing to player's strengths and covering their weaknesses at times, so I can only hope that he can find a suitable secondary to field for 2012.

Samuel is one of the best in the business at certain areas of coverage, and his reputation alone tends to make QB's shy away from him, as you can tell by his 61 overall targets (Arrington 100 in comparison). That alone would be beneficial, as would his excellent coverage skills (zone), and ability to jump routes and trick the opposing QB into making mistakes. All of those skills would have been much better than anyone here last yr.

However, his inability to cover man to man, play any kind of effective run support worth a damn, and suggested attitude problems would all prove that he also has characteristics that are NOT as good as some of the 2011 version of NE's CB core.

Would he have been better than anyone in the 2011 NEP secondary? Absolutely. That is the main point, as I stated in my other post, and that is where I was incorrect.

Do I believe that he's anywhere near the money that he's paid, or that BB would even remotely consider him here again? No. Do I believe that there are several CB's on this current roster that provide better value than Samuel? Absolutely.

 

[supafly]

Do I believe that there are several CB's on this current roster that provide better value than Samuel? Absolutely.

In other words, look at the reletive cap hit that Samuel is projected to bring this year.

10.5 million dollars.

Now look at the cap hit that Kyle Arrington brings (and I certainly realize his limitations, and the fact that he should be improved on the outside; however that's what I believe the plan was heading into the year until Dowling was injured. I believe it was to use Dowling on the outside, and utilize Arrington's strenth in the slot--where he held Victor Cruz to 4 catches and 25 yards in the SB).

Arrington effectively replaced the ballhawking skills that we would have expected from Samuel with 7 INT's last yr. Actually he did better than Samuel in that regard, for way less money. Way less.

The difference in Asante's 48% completion against rate, and Arrington's 54% against completion rate was not that different; especially for the money.

In this case, I believe that this could certainly be argued as someone in the CB core that currently provides a better value than Asante Samuel.

When Arrington hopefully moves full time to the slot this yr, he may lessen the gap between his 54% completion against rate, and Samuel's 48% even more.

As for overall skill, there's no comparison. A.Samuel is a much better overall CB than Arrington, however we all know that there is more to it than that.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Looks like he may be going to Titans

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The Titan's beat writer says that was speculation out of Comcast Philly...based largely on their losing Finnegan, and not going to happen. Says there is no way they trade for him on that deal let alone for a conditional third. Places their interest in him as tepid at best, thinks they might be interested down the road if he's released. He's not going to see that $9M average (or $21.5M remaining on his Eagles deal) from anyone else.

 

[brdmaverick]

MONEY IS the issue here.

It's like when the Red Sox placed Manny Ramirez on waivers. A lot of teams would love to have Manny, but not at the 20mil price tag that came with it.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Detroit Lions have departed the NFL meetings in Palm Beach, Fla., with a buzz that their interest has continued in obtaining cornerback Asante Samuel from the Philadelphia Eagles.

Samuel still possible fit for Lions at cornerback

 

[MoLewisrocks]

For the Lions, a potential stumbling block is whether Samuel is willing to take a pay cut. Detroit doesn’t have a lot of cap space, and Samuel’s base salary of $9.9 million is not something the Lions would likely be willing to pay.

He'd just become another stumbling block in 2013 on a team chock full of them even if the cap is crap...in the present. Now teams will be looking ahead to 2015 for a potential get out of jail card although by then so many of them will have pushed so much crap into that year to get out of cap heck it won't matter.

And apparently the asking price is a conditional 3rd...i.e. a 2013 pick.

 

[ATippett56]

With Samuel, Eagles could be sizing up another sucker | ProFootballTalk

 

[supafly]

With Samuel, Eagles could be sizing up another sucker | ProFootballTalk

I love this telling quote from the article: (per PFT)

"Though the pass-happy nature of the NFL puts a premium on defensive backs, if Samuel was a premium defensive back the Eagles wouldn’t have acquired a pair of defensive backs last season to render him unnecessary.

And now the Eagles can’t afford Samuel, and they’re looking for a sucker who will take him off their hands. History tells us that they’ll find one."

I think Samuel is a decent CB at certain areas..however, the lack of his talents at other areas is obviously known around league circles too, and his price I assume, will turn a lot of potential buyers off.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Dear lord, no. Not at that price.