Dolphins eye Caserio for GM

[signbabybrady]

You make my argument for me. For a team who has had the most draft picks half those guys you listed came from other teams.

Why is it that when Moss, Dillion, Welker, Harrison come to the team their the best player on the team when they have had ton of draft picks?

Well lets see what the facts say since 2000 here are the offensive Skill positions drafted not including QB:

2000
3rd Redman
5th Dave Stachelski
7th Patrick Pass
2001
4th Holloway
6th love
2002
1 Graham
2 Branch
7 Givens
2003
2 Bethel Johnson
2004
1 Watson
4 Cedrick Cobbs
5 PK Sam
2005
7th Andy Stokes
2006
1Maroney
2Chad Jackson
3David Thomas
4Garett Mills
2007
N/A
2008
N/A
2009
3 Branden Tate
7 Edelman
2010
2 Gronk
3 Taylor Price
4 Hernandez
2011
2 Vareen
3 Ridley
5 Lee Smith
2012
2 Dobson
4 Boyce

Thats 27 skill position players selected with 19 of them coming in the first 4 rounds and 9 in the first 2. At least 9 of these 27 players have been starter/significant contibutors with solid roles going to several more and a couple being undecided on from this year.


And this list does not include any UDFAs like Thompkins, Green-Ellis, Bolden, and anyone else not coming to mind.


Then when you consider some of the FA and trades they have made the idea that they have not tried and mostly succeded to surround Brady with significant talent is a complete fallacy.

I think part of this perception comes from the fact that one of the teams best weapons has always been the slot receiver who just does not get the same credit but when you consider between Brown, Wes, and Edelman Brady has basically had one of the 2 or 3 best slot receivers in the game every year. This fact plus Moss, Dillon and Gronk and to lesser degrees Branch and Hernandez stand alone as evidence that this team has always tried to surround Tom with the best talent.

For some reason people get blinded by the fact his weapons have tended to be TEs or shorter receivers and has really only had one big, tall, fast receiver.

 

[Koma]

Well, that's certainly a new standard. :bricks: I had no idea that we were playing fantasy football (which has nothing to do with real football).

I'm with ya. I should have thrown in a sarcasm emoticon.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

I believe you mean first overall.

Hey now - my plan for next year is to draft Solder 1st overall. I swear 2014 is the year that he'll perfect the Mike Vrabel 3rd TE in goal-line role. 16 TDs this year, book it done!

 

[signbabybrady]

Well lets see what the facts say since 2000 here are the offensive Skill positions drafted not including QB:

2000
3rd Redman
5th Dave Stachelski
7th Patrick Pass
2001
4th Holloway
6th love
2002
1 Graham
2 Branch
7 Givens
2003
2 Bethel Johnson
2004
1 Watson
4 Cedrick Cobbs
5 PK Sam
2005
7th Andy Stokes
2006
1Maroney
2Chad Jackson
3David Thomas
4Garett Mills
2007
N/A
2008
N/A
2009
3 Branden Tate
7 Edelman
2010
2 Gronk
3 Taylor Price
4 Hernandez
2011
2 Vareen
3 Ridley
5 Lee Smith
2012
2 Dobson
4 Boyce

Thats 27 skill position players selected with 19 of them coming in the first 4 rounds and 9 in the first 2. At least 9 of these 27 players have been starter/significant contibutors with solid roles going to several more and a couple being undecided on from this year.


And this list does not include any UDFAs like Thompkins, Green-Ellis, Bolden, and anyone else not coming to mind.


Then when you consider some of the FA and trades they have made the idea that they have not tried and mostly succeded to surround Brady with significant talent is a complete fallacy.

I think part of this perception comes from the fact that one of the teams best weapons has always been the slot receiver who just does not get the same credit but when you consider between Brown, Wes, and Edelman Brady has basically had one of the 2 or 3 best slot receivers in the game every year. This fact plus Moss, Dillon and Gronk and to lesser degrees Branch and Hernandez stand alone as evidence that this team has always tried to surround Tom with the best talent.

For some reason people get blinded by the fact his weapons have tended to be TEs or shorter receivers and has really only had one big, tall, fast receiver.

just for some added context that is out of 124 selections by my count.

thats roughly %22 selections on offensive skill positions.

If we just randomly assign percentage one could assume the below makes sense
%45 offense
%45 Defense
%10 Special teams
Then %22 percent coming from offensive skill position would seem the exact right number that would leave roughly %23 for QB, OL, and FB with the remaining %55 going to defense and STs as alotted above.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, but maybe they should.

Because sticking where they were and taking Baldwin would have been brilliant?


ATL was in the NFCCG last year. This year, they lost OL, saw their RB hurt all season long and lost their 2 elite/semi-elite WRs. That's on top of them letting Abraham go and not replacing his pass rush.

ATL had issues. The WR trade wasn't one of them.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Drafting 250+ LB's who can't cover and the middle of the field which has been wide open for the last several years. Look at the lack of INT's by our LB's in a passing league. Why is BB drafting players to stop the Bus, Marion Butts and so on? Those days are long gone my friend, but for some reason he keeps drafting those types of players. Collins has been a breath of fresh air.

Only drafting one true edge rusher in 14 years in Chandler Jones again in a passing league.

The love of the overly fat D-linemen who again is waiting for the Bus and Marion Butts to come crashing through that line. Seymour is the last DT who could move and get to the QB. Again we are not in the early 2000's and it is a passing league.

HOF QB and you could only name 4 players he has been given. Branch, Welker, Moss, and Gronk. Why isn't one of the best QB's of all time not surrounded year in and year out with the best talent?

Parcells drafts were key to helping those teams win those Super Bowls. TY, Willie, Teddy, Milloy, and Ted Johnson.

Have you seen Jamie Collins play? He's everything that you're claiming the Pats don't draft.

I don't like the emphasis on big, run-stopping LBs either, but it's no longer correct to claim that the role has been neglected outright. Even in Hightower's case, it's pretty clear that he was drafted to replace Spikes because, again, he's better than Spikes at doing all of the things that you're claiming the Pats don't draft for.

Wel, drafting Hightower to be MLB and Collins to play OLB pretty firmly says otherwise.

 

[Sicilian]

Because sticking where they were and taking Baldwin would have been brilliant?

I didn't endorse Belichick's player selection, just his strategy of not overpaying in draft capital for one player.

ATL had issues. The WR trade wasn't one of them.

And the mentality of trading a bunch of assets for one player, thus reducing your chance of building quality depth contributed to those issues. All eggs in one basket, basket breaks, no eggs.

Meanwhile, you see the Patriots team building strategy produce 11-5 when they lose the GOAT, and 12-4 with a CG appearance when they had worse injuries than Atlanta, who finished 4-12.

The trade may have resulted in a good player, but it's not the right way to BUILD a team. Once the team is built, it can work to make a final short term push though.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Because sticking where they were and taking Baldwin would have been brilliant?


ATL was in the NFCCG last year. This year, they lost OL, saw their RB hurt all season long and lost their 2 elite/semi-elite WRs. That's on top of them letting Abraham go and not replacing his pass rush.

ATL had issues. The WR trade wasn't one of them.

The WR trade wasn't the entire problem, but it definitely a major part of it. So was signing an old RB and expecting him to contribute. What we saw from Atlanta is exactly what you'd expect from a team that prioritizes getting a small group of elite players over filling out its roster, a philosophy that is best exemplified by trading a bunch of picks for a single pick.

When those elite players stay healthy, you're likely to be an extremely good team. But with 2-3 key injuries--even if your franchise QB isn't one of them--you become a cellar dweller.

I understand what they were trying to accomplish, but I'm of the mindset that you have to assume you're going to get nailed by injuries throughout the season. If you build your roster in such a way that you have to pray for non-QBs to stay healthy, then that's a pretty big problem. The Pats got nailed by injuries too, but they weathered it well enough to go deep into the playoffs (and have a puncher's chance at taking home the Lombardi) yet again.

 

[Deus Irae]

Probably not, but they might if he doesn't re-sign or breaks his foot for a 3rd time.

I still wouldn't give up that many picks to move up in a draft.

That sort of logic (both sentences) makes no sense to me.

You draft players, regardless of re-signing, and understanding injuries happen.

And you sometimes have to pay to move up and get elite talent.

 

[Deus Irae]

I didn't endorse Belichick's player selection, just his strategy of not overpaying in draft capital for one player.



And the mentality of trading a bunch of assets for one player, thus reducing your chance of building quality depth contributed to those issues. All eggs in one basket, basket breaks, no eggs.

Meanwhile, you see the Patriots team building strategy produce 11-5 when they lose the GOAT, and 12-4 with a CG appearance when they had worse injuries than Atlanta, who finished 4-12.

The trade may have resulted in a good player, but it's not the right way to BUILD a team. Once the team is built, it can work to make a final short term push though.

There is no one right way to work the draft. All those "eggs" didn't help the Patriots secondary, post Samuel/Hobb. All those "eggs" didn't help the Patriots DTs when Wilfork went down. All those "eggs" didn't do a damned thing for the WRs for more than a full decade.

In the case of Atlanta, they were coming off of

11-5
9-7
13-3

seasons when they made the trade. This wasn't a team that was rebuilding. Prior to this year's collapse, they'd gone to the playoffs 4 years out of 5, and were the #7 seed the year they missed (a lot like the Patriots from 2001-2005, albeit without getting to hoist the big tropy).


Just as a "what if", and realizing that this is a very imperfect trade because of the draft chart points.....

The Patriots 2010 1st and 4th were McCourty and Hernandez
The Patriots 2009 1st was traded away. Even kicking in BB's top 3 2nd rounders that year, we're talking Chung, Brace and Butler. The 4th rounder was Ohrnberger.


Does anyone really want to claim it would be a "no-brainer" Patriots trade win if it was

Julio Jones for

McCourty
Chung
Brace
Butler
Ohnrberger
Hernandez


?

The key thing about trading up a lot of spots early in the draft is that you'd better hit if you do it. The Falcons hit.

 

[signbabybrady]

There is no one right way to work the draft. All those "eggs" didn't help the Patriots secondary, post Samuel/Hobb. All those "eggs" didn't help the Patriots DTs when Wilfork went down. All those "eggs" didn't do a damned thing for the WRs for more than a full decade.

I am going to through another food reference out there.

You are looking at it too Apples to Apples.

All those eggs dont have to fill the exact holes you are talking about. The eggs can fill several other positions and layers of depth allowing you to add other Eggs via trades and free agency to fill each position. Its always going to be fluid a few eggs will break or leave for the market and the chicken is always hatching new ones.

Going back to real speak.

Might BB be a little weaker at drafting some positions than others sure but he fills those holes through free agency and trades then. This idea that he doesnt try and fill every hole he has with the best possible talent has to stop. Sure we can point to any position in any given year and claim he didnt properly stock this spot or that but the product speaks for itself and has always been deep enough and talented enough to make up for any holes you may speak of and taken the chances on elite guys that might put you over the top plenty of times too.

 

[Deus Irae]

I am going to through another food reference out there.

You are looking at it too Apples to Apples.

All those eggs dont have to fill the exact holes you are talking about. The eggs can fill several other positions and layers of depth allowing you to add other Eggs via trades and free agency to fill each position. Its always going to be fluid a few eggs will break or leave for the market and the chicken is always hatching new ones.

Going back to real speak.

Might BB be a little weaker at drafting some positions than others sure but he fills those holes through free agency and trades then. This idea that he doesnt try and fill every hole he has with the best possible talent has to stop. Sure we can point to any position in any given year and claim he didnt properly stock this spot or that but the product speaks for itself and has always been deep enough and talented enough to make up for any holes you may speak of and taken the chances on elite guys that might put you over the top plenty of times too.

I'll just put it this way. History shows that the Patriots way is not the only successful way, and Tom Brady has covered up a boatload of BB's personnel mistakes over the course of his NFL career. The Patriots probably never win a SB if they don't get Brady in round 6. That doesn't mean you trade all your higher picks for 6th round players.

The way I'm looking at it is fine. There are more ways to win SBs and remain competitive for a long stretch than the BB way. The 2000s proved that beyond a doubt.


Patriots - lots of "eggs"
Steelers - stand pat team
Colts - elite talent focus

 

[signbabybrady]

I'll just put it this way. History shows that the Patriots way is not the only successful way, and Tom Brady has covered up a boatload of BB's personnel mistakes over the course of his NFL career. The Patriots probably never win a SB if they don't get Brady in round 6. That doesn't mean you trade all your higher picks for 6th round players.

The way I'm looking at it is fine. There are more ways to win SBs and remain competitive for a long stretch than the BB way. The 2000s proved that beyond a doubt.


Patriots - lots of "eggs"
Steelers - stand pat team
Colts - elite talent focus

Definitely agree there is more than one way to skin a cat but the last 20 years show the Patriot Way is the best.

 

[l_j_r]

Did you see the patriots injury list ? They have a 100 mill dollar QB and dmitroff as the gm to put together the pieces like BB and caserio did here. Rolling the dice unfortunately results in inconsistency and 4-12 after a NFCCG is not very good at all.

Point was that ATL got scr*wed by injuries also, not trying to say equally to the Pats. They also made a cap ramifications decision of letting John Abraham go which came back to haunt them as well.

Unfortunately for ATL their 100 mill $ QB can't hold Brady's jock in trying to pull out games by himself

 

[Deus Irae]

Definitely agree there is more than one way to skin a cat but the last 20 years show the Patriot Way is the best.

It shows nothing of the kind.

 

[fgssand]

Definitely agree there is more than one way to skin a cat but the last 20 years show the Patriot Way is the best.

Yet, most of the media in this town and many posters right here just will not give credit where credit is due.

Nobody has done it better, ever.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yet, most of the media in this town and many posters right here just will not give credit where credit is due.

Nobody has done it better, ever.

Since 1998 (Manning's rookie year), the Colts have missed the playoffs three times.
Since 1998, the Patriots have missed the playoffs four times.

Since 2001 (Brady's first year as a starter), both teams have missed the playoffs twice.

What should be surprising to nobody is that the two best QBs of the era have been to the playoffs almost every year. They've eached missed the playoffs twice since 2001, and they've both missed once because of a year lost to injury and once because of an off year.

There is no single "right" way.
There is no single "best" way.
There is finding a way to get the pieces around elite QBs.

 

[l_j_r]

Nobody has done it better, ever.

Pass me a swig off that bottle please! :rocker:

 

[l_j_r]

There is no single "right" way.
There is no single "best" way.
There is finding a way to get the pieces around elite QBs.

Ding - Ding - Ding ... we have a winner!!! :first:

 

[nabwong]

I believe they let the GM draft/sign the cheerleaders in Miami. Boom!