Dion Lewis Fumble/NOT a fumble

[Chris Stevenson]

i'm just citing the rulebook, which makes a distinction between control and possession.

.

Would you please post what you're reading?

 

[mike_usagisan]

I will more than admit that I don't understand the rulebook enough to be able to parse this, and I assume everyone who is screaming that it can only be viewed as a fumble must be right, but this is where I get confused:

Also, even if this "pin to the hip" was enough to actually be possession, that still doesn't stop it from being a fumble.

The ball was clearly loose. Then, while falling down, Lewis put his hand on the ball with the ball between his hand and his hip. Let's be generous and say that "pin" actually met the standard of having possession. Because Lewis was falling down at that point he still has to maintain possession to and through the ground. As he hit the ground, Jack took it away from him. Lewis thus did not survive the ground and so could not be ruled down by contact. It's a validly recovered fumble by Jack.

Let's say the ball pinned to his hip was possession and he falls to the ground and still has it but then Jack takes it from him, why is that a fumble? He survived the ground but once on the ground he didn't survive someone knocking it out of his hands. Why wouldn't that be down by contact since the knocking it out came after him hitting the ground?

 

[Chris Stevenson]

I will more than admit that I don't understand the rulebook enough to be able to parse this, and I assume everyone who is screaming that it can only be viewed as a fumble must be right, but this is where I get confused. Let's say the ball pinned to his hip was possession and he falls to the ground and still has it but then Jack takes it from him, why is that a fumble? He survived the ground but once on the ground he didn't survive someone knocking it out of his hands. Why wouldn't that be down by contact since the knocking it out came after?

It's not a fumble. That's why. LOL

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Let's say the ball pinned to his hip was possession and he falls to the ground and still has it but then Jack takes it from him, why is that a fumble? He survived the ground but once on the ground he didn't survive someone knocking it out of his hands. Why wouldn't that be down by contact since the knocking it out came after him hitting the ground?

Surviving the ground is more than just having the ball in control the moment you hit the ground. Think of pass completions (which is where you see the surviving the ground rule in effect much more often). If a receiver going to ground has firm control of the ball, but the ball is knocked loose the moment he hits the ground, that's an incomplete pass. He has to maintain control for an (admittedly nebulous) amount of time after hitting the ground. Same thing here, except failure to survive the ground means the ball is still loose (because the original loose ball was a fumble, not a forward pass).

 

[TommyD4207]

Video is even more clear. He was hit by the second Jaguar while on the ground. This was not a fumble

That's not possession.

 

[bbobbo]

Would you please post what you're reading?

i already have several times in this thread. but here it is again:

 

[TPL]

I will more than admit that I don't understand the rulebook enough to be able to parse this, and I assume everyone who is screaming that it can only be viewed as a fumble must be right, but this is where I get confused:



Let's say the ball pinned to his hip was possession and he falls to the ground and still has it but then Jack takes it from him, why is that a fumble? He survived the ground but once on the ground he didn't survive someone knocking it out of his hands. Why wouldn't that be down by contact since the knocking it out came after him hitting the ground?

If Lewis was in possession of the ball running down the field with it "pinned to his hip" if he was contacted and his knee hit the ground the play is over the moment his knee hits the ground.

The point of contention some are having a hard time grasping is that before his knee hit the ground he lost possession of the ball, while trying to repossess the ball he has to "survive the ground" . Which the refs and replay deemed he did not. (correctly IMO)

 

[mike_usagisan]

Surviving the ground is more than just having the ball in control the moment you hit the ground. Think of pass completions (which is where you see the surviving the ground rule in effect much more often). If a receiver going to ground has firm control of the ball, but the ball is knocked loose the moment he hits the ground, that's an incomplete pass. He has to maintain control for an (admittedly nebulous) amount of time after hitting the ground. Same thing here, except failure to survive the ground means the ball is still loose (because the original loose ball was a fumble, not a forward pass).

Thanks. I'm not sure I'm ever going to know what's possession vs. a fumble anymore, but I'm glad it helped us in the Steelers game and didn't come back to bite us in this game.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

That's because the ball was being jostled all the way to the ground before he showed possession for a score, and he landed out of bounds without control, which means Jenkins has to show he has it all the way through to score. Otherwise, it is a touchback because he WAS OUT OF BOUNDS WITH A JOSTLING BALL. Correct call and not applicable to Lewis maintaining possession, running 15 yards, ball jostled, with clear re-possession.

That's not what happened.

ASJ caught the pass and took several steps, becoming a runner.

As a runner, he reached for the goalline. Just before crossing the front of the goalline the ball became loose in his hands.

While in the air he re-grabbed the ball.

While holding the ball he landed in bounds in the endzone. Jets fans, NE haters, and the ignorant think this means he should have had a TD. That's not the case, because...

...unfortunately for him and fortunately for NE, the impact with the ground made the ball move. This was the "not surviving the ground" part. That means the ball is still live and it's still not a TD. It also shows that having possession at the moment you hit the ground is not good enough to end the play.

He re-grabbed the ball again, but by the time he did so he was OOB. Touchback.

To relate all that to Lewis...

The ball came loose in his hands. By the time he regained anything close to control over it (the so-called "pin to the hip") he was falling. That means he has to survive the ground to be considered down by contact. Just like ASJ had to survive the ground for it to have been a TD. Jacks stripped him practically concurrently with hitting the ground, so he didn't survive the ground and was therefore not down by contact.

 

[mike_usagisan]

The point of contention some are having a hard time grasping is that before his knee hit the ground he lost possession of the ball, while trying to repossess the ball he has to "survive the ground" . Which the refs and replay deemed he did not. (correctly IMO)

I'm having a hard time grasping it, too, because I'm not really sure what surviving the ground means any more. I thought he had once his knee was down, but apparently that's not enough anymore.

 

[TommyD4207]

I'm having a hard time grasping it, too, because I'm not really sure what surviving the ground means any more. I thought he had once his knee was down, but apparently that's not enough anymore.

He had already lost possession by the time his knee hit the ground, and never, at any point, regained it.

Not sure what's confusing about that.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

i already have several times in this thread. but here it is again:

Here is the problem:

The ball never came loose. There was never a gap between his hand, the ball and his body.

Show me where the ball came loose for this rule to apply. Tell us where in the video replay, where this happens:

 

[QuantumMechanic]

If Lewis was in possession of the ball running down the field with it "pinned to his hip" if he was contacted and his knee hit the ground the play is over the moment his knee hits the ground.

The point of contention some are having a hard time grasping is that before his knee hit the ground he lost possession of the ball, while trying to repossess the ball he has to "survive the ground" . Which the refs and replay deemed he did not. (correctly IMO)

Exactly. The key point is that if you lose or don't have possession at any point while going to the ground, even if you get possession after that point you have to survive the ground to maintain possession.

For the sake of argument, let's grant that "pinned to his hip" constitutes possession. Then:
(a) If Lewis right from the start has the ball pinned to his hip, is contacted, maintains the pin, and hits ground, he is down by contact the moment he hits the ground. No fumble even if ball comes out.
(b) If Lewis is running normally, loses the ball, pins it to his hip before falling down, is contacted, maintains the pin, and hits ground, he is down by contact the moment he hits the ground. No fumble even if ball comes out.
(c) If Lewis is running normally, loses the ball, is falling by the time he manages to pin it to his hip, is contacted, hits the ground, and loses the ball, he's not down by contact and the ball remains a loose ball.

 

[mike_usagisan]

He had already lost possession by the time his knee hit the ground, and never, at any point, regained it.

Not sure what's confusing about that.

Ha ha... I'm one of the crazies who thinks you can make a case for "pinned to the leg" as possession (having lived through the Tyree catch).

As I said, I really don't know what possession means any more.

 

[archstanton543]

Sure it is. Deleting one group's comments, while not the belligerents' comments, shows favoritism and is arbitrary, just like Mussolini, Hitler or Stalin's logic.

Fascism is fascism.

Nah. It's a free country. If you want to engage in nonsense like you're spewing, start your own Patriots fan forum. Nothing's stopping you.

You just can't do it here. It'd be like if you showed up to a bar and started being a nuisance and are told to leave. That's not fascism. That's a guy kicking out of of his establishment. Censorship only rises to the level of fascism when the government does it. The first amendment says "Congress shall make no law...". Nowhere in there is anything about a right to say anything you want to anyone at any time. It just says that the government can't throw you in jail for the things you say.

 

[TommyD4207]

Here is the problem:

The ball never came loose.

It did.

There was never a gap between his hand, the ball and his body.

There was.

Show me where the ball came loose for this rule to apply. Tell us where in the video replay, where this happens:

Dion Lewis does not have possession of the ball right there. It had been knocked free from his arm to that point. That is not possession under any definition.

 

[TommyD4207]

Ha ha... I'm one of the crazies who thinks you can make a case for "pinned to the leg" as possession (having lived through the Tyree catch).

As I said, I really don't know what possession means any more.

How do you not know?

Tyree had the ball pinned to his helmet, and survived the ground with possession.

Dion Lewis had the ball knocked out of his arm, and never re-gained possession.

I don't see how the two are analogous in any way.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I'm having a hard time grasping it, too, because I'm not really sure what surviving the ground means any more. I thought he had once his knee was down, but apparently that's not enough anymore.

See my post above. Knee being down is only enough if you had possession before falling to the ground and during your fall to the ground. If so (and if you've been touched, of course), you're down by contact.

But if you lose possession of the ball and don't regain it and maintain it during your entire fall to the ground, even if you're touched you're not down by contact unless you maintain possession when you hit and for a short time afterwards. That's "surviving the ground".

 

[mike_usagisan]

How do you not know?

Tyree had the ball pinned to his helmet, and survived the ground with possession.

Dion Lewis had the ball knocked out of his arm, and never re-gained possession.

I don't see how the two are analogous in any way.

Dunno. The way I saw it was Tyree had the ball pinned to his helmet and survived until he was down. (I don't think "survived the ground" was a thing back then.) Lewis had the ball, bobbled it, pinned it to his side and survived until he was down, at which point Jack flicked it out. Now you're saying Lewis didn't survive the ground, which I believe you, but I still don't understand it and clearly can't recognize it when I see it.

 

[bbobbo]

Here is the problem:

The ball never came loose. There was never a gap between his hand, the ball and his body.

Show me where the ball came loose for this rule to apply. Tell us where in the video replay, where this happens:

i also posted this several times, but here it is again: