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Did BB make a mistake bypassing Dunlap for Cunningham last year...


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I'm a fan of MayoClinic, and I still long for Connor Barwin.

I hear ya. I wish he'd come back over with his insightful posts. Dunlap and Barwin would of been nice but it didn't happen which kind of sucks.
 
"With the 53rd pick in the 2010 nfl draft, the New England Patriots select University of Florida DE.............." as Mayoclinic is coming out of his chair ready to jump up and down and cheer like a 10 year old cheer leader. Rest is history, this coupled with the passing on Barwin twice has put Mayo in a straight jacket never to be seen again on this board.

Barwin was selected in 09. We did draft Darius Butler and Ron Brace with our man Barwin on board though. There was a lot of talk about us selecting Butler. BB even worked him out on his pro day or something like that. Many were shocked we took Brace. Self included.
 
Barwin was selected in 09. We did draft Darius Butler and Ron Brace with our man Barwin on board though. There was a lot of talk about us selecting Butler. BB even worked him out on his pro day or something like that. Many were shocked we took Brace. Self included.

I realize Connor was 09, I was just combining the two drafts back to back. Sorry my post came out that way to you. I can see where it might be viewed that way though.
 
The biggest question about the Cunningham draft was why did the Patriots pick him so high. He was the 53rd pick and I remember several people on ESPN said he was a 3rd/4th round value that went in the 2nd round.
 
This is a pretty impressive list.

1 ROY, 3 All Pros, 6 Pro bowlers if you count Mankins. (maybe 7 one day, I think Solder is heading that way as well in the near future; health permitting)

For all the griping about BB the GM, his first round grade is A+++ in my book.

PS: We don;t need anybody posting his 3rd round draft classs over the years, that round is an F- for B.

PSS: I am all for trading our 1st 1st rounder and our 3rd in order to move up and draft Upshaw, depending on the combine results.

Damn..Missed Mankins :bricks:
 
Barwin was selected in 09. We did draft Darius Butler and Ron Brace with our man Barwin on board though. There was a lot of talk about us selecting Butler. BB even worked him out on his pro day or something like that. Many were shocked we took Brace. Self included.

I met one of Barwin's teammates in January. Even his teammates were surprised the Patriots didn't draft him.
 
I met one of Barwin's teammates in January. Even his teammates were surprised the Patriots didn't draft him.

I think Houston has the #1 defense in the NFL, or close to it and they have a bunch of players on that defense that we have wanted over the years.

Cushings
Barwin
Jackson
Watt
Reed

How sad is that?
 
Just think how much better this defense would be if Bill hadn't inexcusably effed-up both the Ron Brace (instead of Barwin) and the Chicken Legs Crable (instead of the obviously superior Cliff Avril) picks.
 
Just think how much better this defense would be if Bill hadn't inexcusably effed-up both the Ron Brace (instead of Barwin) and the Chicken Legs Crable (instead of the obviously superior Cliff Avril) picks.

Anti-Brace bias much? You're calling him the mistake rather than the already-cut Butler.
 
This is a pretty impressive list.

1 ROY, 3 All Pros, 6 Pro bowlers if you count Mankins. (maybe 7 one day, I think Solder is heading that way as well in the near future; health permitting)

For all the griping about BB the GM, his first round grade is A+++ in my book.

PS: We don;t need anybody posting his 3rd round draft classs over the years, that round is an F- for B.

PSS: I am all for trading our 1st 1st rounder and our 3rd in order to move up and draft Upshaw, depending on the combine results.
BB Always does a great job on hitting his 1st rounder.....its the 2nd and 3rd that he seems to have trouble with. Someone (maybe it was you) pointed out that he takes chances in rounds 2+3.
 
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barwin over butler and reed over dowling would have had this defense at least in the middle of the pack this year.

6 DB's drafted in the 1st 2 rounds since 2007, and only one stepped on the field

I don't have a problem with the drafting of cunningham over dunlap......at least the position was right......it could have been jerome murphy
 
barwin over butler and reed over dowling would have had this defense at least in the middle of the pack this year.

6 DB's drafted in the 1st 2 rounds since 2007, and only one stepped on the field

I don't have a problem with the drafting of cunningham over dunlap......at least the position was right......it could have been jerome murphy

Reed still doesn't fit the Pats' scheme.
 
what scheme
Any scheme Belichick has ever run in New England

and why not?
Because his only successful pass rush move is the speed rush, which by design requires selling out against the run. There's not really a block-shedding element to his game, just trying to blow past blockers. That's fine in just about every 3-4 scheme except one, and that's the one that you want to put him in.
 
Any scheme Belichick has ever run in New England


Because his only successful pass rush move is the speed rush, which by design requires selling out against the run. There's not really a block-shedding element to his game, just trying to blow past blockers. That's fine in just about every 3-4 scheme except one, and that's the one that you want to put him in.

this is ridiculous......based on your silliness, the pats would have never drafted wilfork because he dodn't fit the scheme.......seymour didn't fit the scheme out of college, neither did warren. Which teams actually run BB's scheme in college? is that how he drafts? Cunningham was a 4-3 DE they tried to fit into a 3-4 OLB uniform, he didn't fit the scheme....mayo was a 4-3 mlb.....he didn't fit the scheme

see, I think you have no clue as to what you are talking about, so you just throw crap out there to see what sticks......'didn't fit the scheme'....LOL....park that right next to 'BB knows best' because you don't have a clue
 
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this is ridiculous......based on your silliness, the pats would have never drafted wilfork because he dodn't fit the scheme.......seymour didn't fit the scheme out of college, neither did warren. Which teams actually run BB's scheme in college? is that how he drafts? Cunningham was a 4-3 DE they tried to fit into a 3-4 OLB uniform, he didn't fit the scheme....mayo was a 4-3 mlb.....he didn't fit the scheme

see, I think you have no clue as to what you are talking about, so you just throw crap out there to see what sticks......'didn't fit the scheme'....LOL....park that right next to 'BB knows best' because you don't have a clue

I'm not even going to bother. If I can't answer questions without having my credibility questioned by the least credible poster on the site, it's not worth my time.
 
I'm not even going to bother. If I can't answer questions without having my credibility questioned by the least credible poster on the site, it's not worth my time.

in other words, you have no answer.....I get it

I am just as credible as you.......to assume anything else is baseless
 
this is ridiculous......based on your silliness, the pats would have never drafted wilfork because he dodn't fit the scheme.......seymour didn't fit the scheme out of college, neither did warren. Which teams actually run BB's scheme in college? is that how he drafts? Cunningham was a 4-3 DE they tried to fit into a 3-4 OLB uniform, he didn't fit the scheme....mayo was a 4-3 mlb.....he didn't fit the scheme

see, I think you have no clue as to what you are talking about, so you just throw crap out there to see what sticks......'didn't fit the scheme'....LOL....park that right next to 'BB knows best' because you don't have a clue

You have captured succinctly the issue many on these boards have when they defend BB's passing over players like Barwin or Reed or countless others: they repeat the mantra that these players would NOT have fit BB's "scheme". This ignores the fact that few if any college players are a fit for BB's scheme because few if any colleges play that scheme. You cite examples like Seymour, Wilfork and Mayo and correctly point out that in each case BB was relying on his own projections of how a player might play for him.

Secondly, we know that BB values versatility -- the ability of a player to play different positions or different schemes. Third, BB is NOT averse to changing schemes to match personnel or to design schemes that bring out the best of the talent he has.

Yet, we have posters who claim to know BB's schemes and who claim to be able to divine whether a player fits that BB's profile as well as he can. Of course, while we could all agree that BB is one of the greatest coaches ever, he is not infallible. He has made glaring personnel errors (Cunningham who was a failure under the 3-4 and the 4-3) even as he has had some great homeruns (Gronk and Hernandez come to mind). The irony is that his failures have been glaring on the defensive side of the ball.

Even a generally supportive observer like Mike Reiss of ESPN Boston, is now outspoken about the state of NE defense:
"Lot of help needed. Don't mean to sound harsh, but I just don't think they can make the same mistakes of passing on players like Jabaal Sheard and Brooks Reed like they did in 2011. It's hard to find good, young talent in the front-seven and I thought they missed a great opportunity there. Believe they would benefit from being more aggressive in that area in '12."

Reiss argues for BB changing his approach to defense personnel and coaching next year. "I think everyone respects what [BB has] accomplished over the last 12 years here. The mindset is more on what can be done heading forward to maximize this great opportunity with Tom Brady. I've said it before, I think we'll all be looking back at this stretch of Patriots football and saying, "Remember how good we had it with Brady and Belichick?" So that context isn't forgotten whenever a critical thought is in play."
Chat: Chat with Mike Reiss - SportsNation - ESPN Boston
 
The irony is that his failures have been glaring on the defensive side of the ball.

Even a generally supportive observer like Mike Reiss of ESPN Boston, is now outspoken about the state of NE defense:
"Lot of help needed. Don't mean to sound harsh, but I just don't think they can make the same mistakes of passing on players like Jabaal Sheard and Brooks Reed like they did in 2011. It's hard to find good, young talent in the front-seven and I thought they missed a great opportunity there. Believe they would benefit from being more aggressive in that area in '12."
Great point on the irony of this defense being the worst in the NFL, though I think our middle linebacker #52--Dane Fletcher--is a big upgrade over Gary Guyton, who looked like a stud though tackled like a ballerina.
 
The great "Scheme vs. Player" debate again.

I think it's more BB's general defensive philosophy more than any strict "scheme" that guides his evaluations. And I think that "philosophy" is simply that, when spending a 1st/2nd round pick on a front seven player, BB prefers accomplished solid "defenders" who he might develop into "attackers" than attackers who may, or may not ever become solid defenders. And I do believe that this philosophy differs significantly from that of most teams.

What I mean by "defender" is a guy who has demonstrated fairly consistent gap/assignment-discipline, strength and/or technique to shed well, wrap-up tackling ability, football smarts/instincts to read and react appropriately and to work well in tandem with his teammates - IOW a guy who seems, from the get-go, capable of being in the right place most of the time to prevent a big play. This is distinct from "attackers" who've demonstrated gap-shooting pass-rush ability in college and little else. While it's true, that BB has passed on some guys like this who HAVE developed into fairly solid defenders, he seems to prefer to err on the other side. And, IMHO, he was right about Clay Matthews.

In that regard, I don't think Cunningham has yet "failed" outright, unless all one was looking for from him was pass-rush. He seemed (IMHO) well on his way to becoming a pretty solid "defender" as a rookie, even though his "pressure game" was lacking. However, the actual "scheme" this season has been much more attack-based than previous years and Cunningham (between a missed 2nd-year offseason and chronic injuries) simply couldn't develop into a role within it. If the Pats return to playing a larger percentage of 2-gap, "defender-based" 30-fronts in 2012 (closer to 2010 percentages than this season, anyway), AND Cunningham is healthy, I believe we'll see a resumption of progress on his part.

Anyway, because most teams are looking for proven "attackers" who may be able to develop as defenders, that means that, for the majority of the free-market, "attackers" have higher value and, thus, move up in the rankings at the expense of solid defenders who may be relatively weak attackers. The scouting reports of the highly-paid draftniks almost always focus on the attack skills of top DLine and OLB prospects while barely mentioning their "defender" chops. Of course, front seven players who end up going in the top 10 or so may well be both great attackers AND great defenders, but the Pats rarely have a pick in that range (when they did, they took Seymour, Warren and Wilfork). In the range that BB usually has to work with, a guy may be just one or the other and BB greatly tends to select for "the other". It doesn't always work well, but what does?

Now, BB has picked up guys for the team who were primarily attackers, but they have been veteran FA or later-round picks, but they've generally been role-players.

So, you may disagree with BB's approach, but I believe that's where his picks (and his passing on certain highly-touted others) actually come from.
 
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