Denver will switch to a 3-4, meaning more competition for Patriots-type players

[BradyFTW!]

I watched Barton and Davis play. I'm quite comfortable with the way I ranked them. And the reason that 3 of the players are even on this list is because they are coming from the same team which will either re-sign them or need 3 new linebackers. I'm sorry, but your assertion just doesn't hold up.

I think it's safe to say that we've all seen Barton play. He's not great, obviously, but nobody's saying otherwise. He's a capable starter. And even if you take 3 players off the list, Rob's point still holds up anyways.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think it's safe to say that we've all seen Barton play. He's not great, obviously, but nobody's saying otherwise. He's a capable starter. And even if you take 3 players off the list, Rob's point still holds up anyways.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't come close to holding up. For crying out loud, he tried using Monty Beisel and Larry Izzo in his "point". That should have told you all you needed to know.

 

[Rob0729]

I watched Barton and Davis play. I'm quite comfortable with the way I ranked them. And the reason that 3 of the players are even on this list is because they are coming from the same team which will either re-sign them or need 3 new linebackers. I'm sorry, but your assertion just doesn't hold up.

Davis played on a team with no viable starters. I don't blame him for the fact that there was virtually no one on that team who would have even had a shot to start on the Pats. Two years ago, the guy was very good player.

As for Baltimore, they are not a active free agency team. If they do not sign the three LBs (they will keep at least one), they may decide to promote from within the roster. They didn't go the free agency route to replace AD. They probably won't this time around. Baltimore builds through the draft primarily.

Again, at least three of the team who are in the 3-4 are not active free agency players ever. They will not be much competition for free agent LBs. The Jets are pretty much set with LBs since they paid big bucks for Pace last year, Thomas the year before, and Harris is a up and coming LB plus they probably have to get Gholston on the field one way or another (assuming they stay in the 3-4). I think McDaniels' priority will be to bolster the d-line. He may put more of his efforts there.

 

[BradyFTW!]

No, it doesn't. It doesn't come close to holding up. For crying out loud, he tried using Monty Beisel and Larry Izzo in his "point". That should have told you all you needed to know.

Maybe you need to go back and read what his point actually was, because it's pretty clear that you missed it.

 

[Rob0729]

No, it doesn't. It doesn't come close to holding up. For crying out loud, he tried using Monty Beisel and Larry Izzo in his "point". That should have told you all you needed to know.

I listed the entire list of LBs with 3-4 experience. I didn't want to leave anyone out. Never alluded to the fact that everyone on that list could start or even make a solid impact. There were years earlier this decade that an Izzo or Beisel type of player was the best LB available with 3-4 exerience. In fact, the Pats picked up Beisel and Chad Brown in 2005 because there were no viable options for exeperienced 3-4 LBs in free agency eventhough they had a bigger need than now at ILB. In 2005, there were more than half the teams there are now who ran the 3-4.

 

[Deus Irae]

Davis played on a team with no viable starters. I don't blame him for the fact that there was virtually no one on that team who would have even had a shot to start on the Pats. Two years ago, the guy was very good player.

As for Baltimore, they are not a active free agency team. If they do not sign the three LBs (they will keep at least one), they may decide to promote from within the roster. They didn't go the free agency route to replace AD. They probably won't this time around. Baltimore builds through the draft primarily.

Again, at least three of the team who are in the 3-4 are not active free agency players ever. They will not be much competition for free agent LBs. The Jets are pretty much set with LBs since they paid big bucks for Pace last year, Thomas the year before, and Harris is a up and coming LB plus they probably have to get Gholston on the field one way or another (assuming they stay in the 3-4). I think McDaniels' priority will be to bolster the d-line. He may put more of his efforts there.

The Ravens are expected to re-sign at least 2 of the 3 linebackers, which would take them off the list. Lewis and Suggs will remain Ravens, which means it will only be 6 players, not 8. Furthermore, Farrior is 34 years old, and I just put him in there to be generous. Again, it's less than 1 starter available per 3-4 team.

 

[Deus Irae]

I listed the entire list of LBs with 3-4 experience. I didn't want to leave anyone out. Never alluded to the fact that everyone on that list could start or even make a solid impact. There were years earlier this decade that an Izzo or Beisel type of player was the best LB available with 3-4 exerience. In fact, the Pats picked up Beisel and Chad Brown in 2005 because there were no viable options for exeperienced 3-4 LBs in free agency eventhough they had a bigger need than now at ILB. In 2005, there were more than half the teams there are now who ran the 3-4.

Beisel ended up NOT being viable, which is kind of the point, won't you admit?

 

[Rob0729]

The Ravens are expected to re-sign at least 2 of the 3 linebackers, which would take them off the list. Lewis and Suggs will remain Ravens, which means it will only be 6 players, not 8. Furthermore, Farrior is 34 years old, and I just put him in there to be generous. Again, it's less than 1 starter available per 3-4 team.

And in 2005, there were 0 viable starters available per 3-4 teams and the only teams that ran the 3-4 back then were NE, Cleveland, San Diego, Pittsburgh, and Miami (sorta). So the odds are still better this year than it was in 2005.

 

[Rob0729]

Beisel ended up NOT being viable, which is kind of the point, won't you admit?

Exactly! Thanks for backing up my point. Less 3-4 teams, less viable 3-4 LBs available in free agency.

 

[BradyFTW!]

to hell with linebackers, I'm more worried about what this is going to do to the value of NTs anyways. There aren't enough to go around, but I'll feel better about it once Wilfork is extended.

 

[Rob0729]

to hell with linebackers, I'm more worried about what this is going to do to the value of NTs anyways. There aren't enough to go around, but I'll feel better about it once Wilfork is extended.

I think Wilfork will resign, but his paycheck might have gotten heftier. I think Belichick knows the value of a NT in a two gap 3-4.

 

[Deus Irae]

Exactly! Thanks for backing up my point. Less 3-4 teams, less viable 3-4 LBs available in free agency.

Wow..... you couldn't be missing the point more if you were actively trying to do so.

 

[Rob0729]

Wow..... you couldn't be missing the point more if you were actively trying to do so.

Well, considering you seem to have missed my point by a mile, maybe you shot me off course. I got your point. Your point backs up my point. Your point is irrelevant since I already said that my list of 3-4 LB free agents was a complete list and that was why he is included.

The Pats acquired Beisel to do the same thing you are arguing they are going to have to do. Teach players with different skill sets and from different defenses because they could not acquire a polished 3-4 LB in free agency to replace Phifer leaving and Bruschi having a stroke. This wasn't because there were too many teams fighting for 3-4 LBs, it was because there weren't enough teams developing 3-4 LBs.

This is the same argument people made in 2006 when Nick Saban was in Miami, Mangini was in NY, and Romeo were in Cleveland. People said they would all steal all the talent the Pats were going after. It didn't stop the Pats from restocking in 2007 and going 18-1 with one minute from 19-0.

I see there are two sides to every story. The more teams polishing 3-4 LB talent increases the free agency pool as much or maybe even more than dillute the availability of players due to more competition. Every team running the 3-4 will not need LBs in free agency every year. Many of them who lose free agent LBs will replace them with current talent on their roster and the draft, and not free agency.

I don't get why this concept is so hard to grasp. I am sure there will years that there will be a lot of competition for 3-4 LBs, but others where there will be a glut (at least in what free agency is today where most teams are well under the cap).

I can almost guarantee you that the Steelers, Chargers, and Jets (they are over the cap even if there is a need) will not be competitors for any of the top free agent LBs this offseason. I bet the Cards will probably not be a player either since Wisenhunt comes from the Pittsburgh tree that likes to build in the draft. That cuts the teams vying for the free agents available in half right there.

But I am getting tired of this argument. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[TripleOption]

Please stop calling it the 4-6! You'll mislead folks who've never seen it before into assuming it puts 10 players in the box, or 6 linebackers on the field, or something ridiculous.

"46". Forty-six.

For those who assume that, it's named "46" after one of the key players in the scheme during it's early days. #46 Doug Planck was the FS when Ryan was first running it.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Which is why the next coach may not want to go through that same process all over again.

Except that Rex Ryan, the only non head coach assistant, who didn't tell the JEST brain-drain to "Get Stuffed", is a proponent of the blitzing 4-3 one gap, and occasionally a 4-6 for Daddy.

By practical default, He is the predicted next: "HC of the NYJ". Probably 3 years to get the right players, and dump the ones they struggled to get, before he gets fired.

Self-inflicted, terminal Stupidity by the JEST.

 

[Deus Irae]

Except that Rex Ryan, the only non head coach assistant, who didn't tell the JEST brain-drain to "Get Stuffed", is a proponent of the blitzing 4-3 one gap, and occasionally a 4-6 for Daddy.

By practical default, He is the predicted next: "HC of the NYJ". Probably 3 years to get the right players, and dump the ones they struggled to get, before he gets fired.

Self-inflicted, terminal Stupidity by the JEST.

Baltimore runs a 3-4. Ryan will start with that.

 

[WhiskeyBreath]

The Packers have said they are switching to the 3-4 now that they hired Capers.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Packers have said they are switching to the 3-4 now that they hired Capers.

That means we could see 9 teams running it, depending upon what the Chiefs do. It figures that we finally have a year expected to be ripe with 3-4 linebackers, and this is the year that the league decides everyone wants to convert and will need those players.

 

[Deus Irae]

Just thought I'd post this article as a follow up:

Chargers.com - News Headlines Popularity of 3-4 challenges talent evaluators

“With so many teams moving to the 3-4, there’s a lot higher demand on the smaller defensive ends who move to linebacker in the NFL,” Raye said. “It’s hard to imagine getting a guy like Shaun Phillips in the fourth round now.”

“When we made the switch, there weren’t as much competition for some of the players we were looking for,” Raye said. “Now everybody is looking for similar types of players that fit the scheme.”

“If you don’t have a guy that can play the nose, the system just can’t work,” Raye said. “Those guys are hard to find and they’re harder to find when you’ve got a lot of teams looking for them. We’re fortunate that we’ve got one in Jamal Williams.”

The Chargers are apparently thinking along the same lines that I am. I don't know whether or not that's a good thing....

 

[Deus Irae]

And here's a bit of good news on this front, although as before, take it for what you think it's worth. San Francisco's GM thinks that the use of the spread offense in college will mean more players that can adapt to the 3-4 in the NFL:

Matt Maiocco's Instant 49ers

"What you're seeing now with the spread offenses is a lot of undersized defensive ends," 49ers GM Scot McCloughan said. "The defenses are adjusting now and saying, 'We don't need the big run stopper on the field or the big pass rusher; we need the undersized guy and more speed on the field because it's all misdirection.' The best thing to do in the spread offense is get the quarterback. You'll see the 220- to 240-pound defensive ends who are really good football players playing with their hand down. The bigger bodies don't get on the field."

The near future should be fun to watch.