Dan Connolly injury overreaction?

[Ring 6]

This is exactly the sort of reason why I don't buy the "Connolly is good enough" talk. You can get by against most teams with a weak spot on your OL, because you can scheme around it and most lines lack the personnel to punish you for it.

But against teams with good DTs, we get exposed because we can't scheme around the sheer mismatch of talent. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I believe that the Pats will have to beat multiple teams with good DTs if they want to win the Super Bowl. I dunno if you're getting that done with Connolly (a serviceable backup) starting and Ohrnberger (not sure how he's still in the NFL) as your top backup.

But you can't have a guy at every position who can beat the best guy in the league at the position across from him.
I'm pretty sure many teams have had good offenses and won SBs with a 'servicable' G.

 

[Ring 6]

If you call allowing 5 sacks and forcing Light and Koppen to have to shade towards you and, in turn, force the Pats to line up a blocking TE to Light's outside to ensure a DE doesn't come in unblocked, then sure Connolly was good.

The reality is that Connolly is actually a step down from Russ Hochstein. If you believe otherwise, then you are kidding yourself.

Can I make stuff up and call it an argument too?

 

[Ring 6]

After Connolly went down, Vollmer was too worried about helping Ohrnberger that he was out of position on his own man. Same with Koppen.

Least you could do is actually stick to reality.

Thats ridiculous. A T does not help a G in pass protection and ignore his own man.
Think about what you are suggesting. Vollmer ignored his man so he could blcok Ohrnbergers man if he happened to miss him. That thinking is absent of any football knowledge or insight.

 

[BradyFTW!]

But you can't have a guy at every position who can beat the best guy in the league at the position across from him.
I'm pretty sure many teams have had good offenses and won SBs with a 'servicable' G.

Sure, the Packers and Steelers are recent examples. The difference is that Brady, unlike Rodgers and Roethlisberger, requires a pocket to operate in. Give him that, and he's a far better QB than either of those guys. But if a team isn't threatened by our running game (and not many are- we're pass-first all the way) and can generate consistent interior pressure with a 4 man rush, the Patriots are most likely going to lose. Luckily, there aren't many teams with the personnel to do that, but we have to be better equipped to handle the ones that can.

I'm not saying that we need someone who can handle Suh head to head on every play. We just need someone who, with help, can keep him from literally camping out in the backfield. We're one starter-caliber guard--and for all I know, it could be Cannon--away from being pretty much all set on the line.

 

[Ring 6]

Sure, the Packers and Steelers are recent examples. The difference is that Brady, unlike Rodgers and Roethlisberger, requires a pocket to operate in. Give him that, and he's a far better QB than either of those guys. But if a team isn't threatened by our running game (and not many are- we're pass-first all the way) and can generate consistent interior pressure with a 4 man rush, the Patriots are most likely going to lose. Luckily, there aren't many teams with the personnel to do that, but we have to be better equipped to handle the ones that can.

I'm not saying that we need someone who can handle Suh head to head on every play. We just need someone who, with help, can keep him from literally camping out in the backfield. We're one starter-caliber guard--and for all I know, it could be Cannon--away from being pretty much all set on the line.

I love the comments on this board lately about Brady not doing well with pass rushers in his face. Duh.
Also, I think you can find a whole lot more examples than the ones you handpicked to make your point. Brady won without great Gs. Both Mannings, well, hell pretty much everyone but the 2009 Saints.
Ironically half the posts on this board say Connolly getting injured was the beginning of the pressure vs Detroit and half are saying this game shows we cant win with Connolly. Most are missing the fact that while Suh is the biggest name he wasn't actually the guy causing all or most of the disrupstion, but why bother with facts.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is exactly the sort of reason why I don't buy the "Connolly is good enough" talk. You can get by against most teams with a weak spot on your OL, because you can scheme around it and most lines lack the personnel to punish you for it.

But against teams with good DTs, we get exposed because we can't scheme around the sheer mismatch of talent. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I believe that the Pats will have to beat multiple teams with good DTs if they want to win the Super Bowl. I dunno if you're getting that done with Connolly (a serviceable backup) starting and Ohrnberger (not sure how he's still in the NFL) as your top backup.

Indeed. As I noted earlier, the Patriots are having Solder work at RG. That's not much of a vote of confidence for Connolly, IMO. If positional versatility was all they were looking for out of Solder, they'd probably have him working just at the two tackle spots or, in case of emergency, at LG. Having a rookie LT working on the offside guard position with such a shortened offseason seems much more like trying to fix a problem to me, which would mean that BB agrees with you. Obviously, I'm just trying to analyze the situation and not passing along breaking news, but that just seems to make sense to me.

Also, a question I find relevant, though not directly tied, to the topic: Does anyone remember Vollmer working at guard in his rookie year?

 

[BradyFTW!]

I love the comments on this board lately about Brady not doing well with pass rushers in his face. Duh.
Also, I think you can find a whole lot more examples than the ones you handpicked to make your point. Brady won without great Gs. Both Mannings, well, hell pretty much everyone but the 2009 Saints.
Ironically half the posts on this board say Connolly getting injured was the beginning of the pressure vs Detroit and half are saying this game shows we cant win with Connolly. Most are missing the fact that while Suh is the biggest name he wasn't actually the guy causing all or most of the disrupstion, but why bother with facts.

He didn't win while facing the kind of interior pressure that the he's faced in all of the playoff losses (and most of their losses, period) over the past couple of years. I understand that you're incapable of acknowledging that this team isn't perfect as constructed, but this is beyond question. It's just an objective fact.

If the DTs can collapse the pocket, then Brady has nowhere to go to evade the pressure and is forced to throw off-balance. He's one of the best QBs of all time, but throwing on the run just isn't his strength. Duh is right- there are only a few QBs who can do that effectively, and Brady isn't one of them. If you're comfortable with Connolly and Ohrnberger being the second and third guards on the depth chart, then good for you, but a whole lot of us aren't, and it's times like Saturday that show exactly why. They put Brady in the one situation where he can be most easily beaten.

And as for the different interpretations of Connolly, those are by no means mutually exclusive. Because we haven't replaced Neal, we've weakened both starting RG and backup G, obviously. The domino effect of Connolly being forced to start is that we have guy who shouldn't even be in the NFL as the primary backup, which is what Connolly should be. It hurts the team on two levels.

 

[Ring 6]

He didn't win while facing the kind of interior pressure that the he's faced in all of the playoff losses (and most of their losses, period) over the past couple of years.

So we don't do as well when the other team does well rushing the passer. Eureka.

I understand that you're incapable of acknowledging that this team isn't perfect as constructed, but this is beyond question. It's just an objective fact.

Right, I'm the one who has been saying how wonderful the team is in the preseason and not the one getting argued with all preseason about the deficiencies I see.
An objective fact would include that Brady struggles more COMPARED to others with inside pass rush, and not only have you not addressed that, it isnt true.

If the DTs can collapse the pocket, then Brady has nowhere to go to evade the pressure and is forced to throw off-balance. He's one of the best QBs of all time, but throwing on the run just isn't his strength. Duh is right- there are only a few QBs who can do that effectively, and Brady isn't one of them.

There are none that would be effective with heavy pressure coming up the middle.
Your concept is correct, your applying it solely to Brady is wrong.

If you're comfortable with Connolly and Ohrnberger being the second and third guards on the depth chart, then good for you, but a whole lot of us aren't, and it's times like Saturday that show exactly why. They put Brady in the one situation where he can be most easily beaten.

I'd love to have the best player in the NFL at every position, but I live in a world of reality. If I need some 'servicable' players because of that, G is certainly one of the spots that I can live with it. And the pass rush Saturday was not only or mostly) from the RG positon.

And as for the different interpretations of Connolly, those are by no means mutually exclusive. Because we haven't replaced Neal, we've weakened both starting RG and backup G, obviously. The domino effect of Connolly being forced to start is that we have guy who shouldn't even be in the NFL as the primary backup, which is what Connolly should be. It hurts the team on two levels.

How can it not be mutually exclusive to blame the pressure on Connolly or to say it started after Connolly was hurt?

 

[townes]

Can I make stuff up and call it an argument too?

lmao-like you haven't been doing that all along?

You claimed the owners had to opt out of the CBA for financial reasons but refused to ever back it up. You claimed the Bengals and Bills were among the leagues higher spenders and the truth, as we have seen is that they were way way under. You try to prosecute pretty much every poster you interact with and steadfastly refuse to answer questions that challenge you. If i'm not mistaken you are actually a moderator while also being one of the most arrogant and antagonistic posters on this site, which is a strange combination for what otherwise is a really good football site. i'm not sure what makes you feel so entitled and above everyone else but the act is really really old.

 

[TheSolderKing]

OK, so at RG we have a marginal starter at best (weakest link on the OL) and then not one half-decent to back him up. Awesome!

I hope Cannon can play this year.

Ignorance is Bliss.



I don't get the hate? Do you expect elite players at every position? Down here on planet earth in the real world it is a rarity to have all top tier players. Dan Connolly is a very capable STARTER. Next to Volmer and MANKINS you have unrealistic expectations. You look at this very myopically. This is no different to the rookie comparison of last year; we had 4-5 LEGIT starters that could contribute immediately as gr8 starters and the worst grade out of the bunch would be Jermaine (FAIR). Let us throw in Mesko for #6 This instance rarely happens. (GRONK, Hernandez, McCourty, Spikes, Cunningham

GRONK,HERNANDEZ, McCourty. Spikes as extremely solid starters is a rare occurrence.

PJ- stop! Drinking the KOOL-AID. PH eat Skittles and taste the Rainbow you are so wrong in every respect. I would argue that Koppen is our weakest link on the O-Line but he what do I know?

you talk a big game PJ, but I know your eye for recognizing talent is very sub-par; it is easily in the double bogey range if I may say so myself. You do not look @ the past and what he has done. Filling in for Logan at LG ( do you think that was a cakewalk?) Since this guy could that I have faith he will remain a very above average under the radar Guard.

 

[PatsFan24]

 

[jczxohn1]

It might have been smarter to draft an O Lineman who didn't have cancer and could play before Brady gets killed

If Cannon only gets PUPed and plays when eligbile, all will look differently.

 

[Observer]

If Cannon only gets PUPed and plays when eligbile, all will look differently.

I sure hope so. Brady plus the O-line as it was in Detroit is a bad bad combo.

 

[Kasmir]

1.) Mankins was on the line at the end of the year. He was first team All Pro.

2.) There's more to being a guard than just pulling.

3.) Connolly was so good last year that he was pulled from a game.

4.) Bruschi just talked about the Tampa game and McCoy taking Connolly on a play as the impetous for how the Lions attacked this past week.

5.) The Connolly stuff from last year has been done to death. If you want to believe he's good enough to get the job done, you're welcome to that belief.

Connolly started on one if the leagues best OL's at both LG and RG. But somehow you somehow know he's worse than all the other starting guards in the league. And Belichick stupidly or stubbornly disagrees with your assertion, refusing what should be an easy free agent improvement of his team, and incredibly only drafts a project as Connolly's backup.

That's just not credible. You argue as if you're blind to football on the field. You're only capable of arguing indirectly via selective quotations of 3rd parties. You quote Belichick's pulling him from the Cleveland game as evidence of something, but discount his return to the lineup for the rest of the year. You quote Bruschi but fail to note that Bruschi was also careful to point out that Connolly was injured in the opening kickoff. And still played a ton better than Orhnberger.

My eyes tell me that Belichick has had good reason to start Connolly. He's a competent pulling guard. No one is saying he's an all pro, or can't be improved upon. But your constant assertions that he's not an NFL starter -- despite his continuing to start on a good NFL line -- just tell me you either don't know squat about football, have an agenda ("pimping"?) -- or both.

 

[Ring 6]

lmao-like you haven't been doing that all along?

You claimed the owners had to opt out of the CBA for financial reasons but refused to ever back it up.

Oh Jesus, here we go again.
Are you saying they didn't opt out for financial reasons? What was it for social reasons? Comic relief? Fun?

You claimed the Bengals and Bills were among the leagues higher spenders and the truth, as we have seen is that they were way way under.

That is a LIE. You are a LIAR. Please find that quote and prove me wrong.

You try to prosecute pretty much every poster you interact with and steadfastly refuse to answer questions that challenge you.

I answer every reasonable question asked. You don't seem to like the answers but that doesn't mean they aren't answers.

If i'm not mistaken you are actually a moderator while also being one of the most arrogant and antagonistic posters on this site, which is a strange combination for what otherwise is a really good football site. i'm not sure what makes you feel so entitled and above everyone else but the act is really really old.

Read what you just typed. You just PERSONALLY ATTACKED me. This is nothing about football, nothing about opinion or disagreement.
Read what you just wrote, and you are calling me arrogant and antagonistic.
You jumped into a conversation that has nothing to do with you and brought up a conversation from months ago, lied about what I said and ANTAGONIZED me for no reason. You made a personal judgment of me, essentially saying I suck and you dont think I belong on this board, and you call be arrogant.

Dude, you need to get a grip. You had, for whatever reason, an overly emotional reaction to the lockout, and your feelings about it were tainted and lacked insight. You seem to want to hold a grudge against anyone who disagreed with your dubious views.
Get over it, unless you want to be arrogant and antagonistic.

 

[mgteich]

Our current projections are that Connolly, an injured Wendell and Ohrnberger will make the 53, with thought MIGHT be able to contribute late in the season.'

It certainly seems that we could do better. I expected us to sign a veteran interior lineman in the next 3 weeks.

I don't think that Connolly is more than adequate., just OK, a JAG. However, Belichick has chosen to accept this level in his RG's in the past. What is much more concerning is our Game Day interior line backup. We have to be able to do better than Ohrnberger. Paerhas Wendell is back to 100%. Even then, I would replace Orhnberger.

 

[Deus Irae]

Connolly started on one if the leagues best OL's at both LG and RG. But somehow you somehow know he's worse than all the other starting guards in the league.

Actually, I don't believe I've made that statement. It's entirely possible that there are other starting guards who shouldn't be starting in the NFL, after all.

And Belichick stupidly or stubbornly disagrees with your assertion, refusing what should be an easy free agent improvement of his team, and incredibly only drafts a project as Connolly's backup.

Belichick has rolled the dice with his guards before. This is the same guard he benched last year, you may recall. Also, he's working his rookie tackle at RG now, instead of having him focusing exclusively on getting better at the two tackle positions. You can take that to mean that he's fine with Connolly if you want to.

That's just not credible. You argue as if you're blind to football on the field. You're only capable of arguing indirectly via selective quotations of 3rd parties. You quote Belichick's pulling him from the Cleveland game as evidence of something, but discount his return to the lineup for the rest of the year. You quote Bruschi but fail to note that Bruschi was also careful to point out that Connolly was injured in the opening kickoff. And still played a ton better than Orhnberger.

You argued this all last year and were wrong, as we saw by the end of the season, and you're doing it now as well when nothing's changed. You're now trying to argue that being the team's best backup last season, and only getting pulled once in favor of the lesser backups, is something not to be discounted when discussing his abilities as a starter. He's better than Ohnberger and Wendel. That doesn't make him starting caliber. The starter was Neal, with Connolly as the backup.

It's ironic that you attack Ohrnberger's play (backup coming in for the current starter) during the Lions game in comparison, because I haven't attacked Connolly for his play against the Lions. So you're now saying that Connolly played better than a complete scrub in an exhibition game as if it means something. IMO, he's not shown himself to be a starting caliber guard, and being better than the Ohrnbergers of the world doesn't serve as such a showing.

My eyes tell me that Belichick has had good reason to start Connolly. He's a competent pulling guard. No one is saying he's an all pro, or can't be improved upon. But your constant assertions that he's not an NFL starter -- despite his continuing to start on a good NFL line -- just tell me you either don't know squat about football, have an agenda ("pimping"?) -- or both.

Starting at RG on the line when the team has no depth on the interior isn't any kind of evidence in favor of Connolly being anything more than better than the likes of Ohrnberger. You're welcome to think that's meaningful. BB brought in a lot of players, and he may have fixed some major weaknesses. However, he hasn't got the safety position down, and he hasn't fixed RG, either.

You're welcome to disagree. That's what's so great about free speech and message boards such as this one.

 

[goheels22002]

not true. We got GR8 value for a potential STUD. He will be here soon enough.


Get G depth by waiver or FA's

Agreed. Marcus Cannon from TCU was a terrific pick in the 5th round. Everybody had him going as a high to mid-2nd round pick which means he'd get time but needed coaching and experience. Why do we have to deal with idiotic comments like this? Cannon will be great and he was not going to step in and fill Neal's shoes right away anyhow.

Connolly and Ohrnburger will be fine in that role while Cannon comes along. The Detroit Lions have an impressive and quick defensive front. Rather than bashing the Patriots, I think we should be praising the Lions.

What is Cannon's status, anyway? Is he on the non-football injury Pup list?

 

[goheels22002]

Indeed. As I noted earlier, the Patriots are having Solder work at RG. That's not much of a vote of confidence for Connolly, IMO. If positional versatility was all they were looking for out of Solder, they'd probably have him working just at the two tackle spots or, in case of emergency, at LG. Having a rookie LT working on the offside guard position with such a shortened offseason seems much more like trying to fix a problem to me, which would mean that BB agrees with you. Obviously, I'm just trying to analyze the situation and not passing along breaking news, but that just seems to make sense to me.

Also, a question I find relevant, though not directly tied, to the topic: Does anyone remember Vollmer working at guard in his rookie year?

I have no recollection of ever seeing Vollmer anywhere other than Tackle, but that wasn't necessary with Stephen Neal and Logan Mankins anchoring those positions. Neal's retirement changed everything.

If Solder is working out at guard, I think it's just a depth thing. Solder was clearly brought in to spell Light and Vollmer and ultimately take Light's spot when he retires. Cannon, right now, is the key to this position and with Connolly and Cannon you have depth and youth at the guard spot. Is it addressing a problem? Sure. We can have confidence that Dante will get this group playing well together. He's the best in the business.

Detroit exposed a weakness in a vanilla Patriots offense. It did not look like the Pats schemed for Detroit to exploit that particular agressive pass rushing defense. We would have seen more counter plays and traps, probably using the young backs who were not on the field. The offensive line was doing a lot of straight-up man-on-man pass blocking, exposing Ohrnberger.

This game also was an indication of the problems with no pre- pre-season so guys could study the playbook and more things could be put into place.

 

[Kasmir]

Actually, I don't believe I've made that statement. It's entirely possible that there are other starting guards who shouldn't be starting in the NFL, after all.

You might as well observe that almost half of all starting guards are below average. If they start, they're starters. But if you're admitting that there might be worse starters in the league than Connolly, that's progress.

Belichick has rolled the dice with his guards before. This is the same guard he benched last year, you may recall. Also, he's working his rookie tackle at RG now, instead of having him focusing exclusively on getting better at the two tackle positions. You can take that to mean that he's fine with Connolly if you want to.

The OL in general played poorly vs Cleveland. That he pulled Connolly for the game but later went back to him implies to me disciplinary action for poor preparation. One of the mysterious things about Connolly and Koppen last year was their sometimes poor communication in overload situations.

It's a real stretch to assume that Belichick's and Scarnecchia's trying of Solder at RG somehow indicates they agree with your assessment of Connolly. More likely they're concerned about depth at guard overall and about Ohrnberger specifically.

You argued this all last year and were wrong, as we saw by the end of the season, and you're doing it now as well when nothing's changed. You're now trying to argue that being the team's best backup last season, and only getting pulled once in favor of the lesser backups, is something not to be discounted when discussing his abilities as a starter. He's better than Ohnberger and Wendel. That doesn't make him starting caliber. The starter was Neal, with Connolly as the backup.

Huh? A healthy Neal being better than Connolly is not in dispute. But what does that have to do with your assessment of Connolly not being and NFL quality starter? For all you know, he could be the 3rd best guard in the league last year, and still backup Mankins and Neal. If Belichick shared your extremist view, you'd think he'd do something in the offseason besides drafting a project and experimenting with Solder.

It's ironic that you attack Ohrnberger's play (backup coming in for the current starter) during the Lions game in comparison, because I haven't attacked Connolly for his play against the Lions. So you're now saying that Connolly played better than a complete scrub in an exhibition game as if it means something. IMO, he's not shown himself to be a starting caliber guard, and being better than the Ohrnbergers of the world doesn't serve as such a showing.

Your universalization of such transitive comparisons is both illogical and irrelevant. Playing injured across from one of the better DT's in the game, Connolly was at best mediocre, and Ohrnberger played very poorly. But making NFL-scope conclusions from that observation actually requires knowledge both of football and of the current personnel of other teams. You have demonstrated no case to claim either that Connolly couldn't start on any other NFL team or that Ohrnberger is a "complete scrub". The former claim is extremely unlikely, the latter possible but remains to be determined.

Starting at RG on the line when the team has no depth on the interior isn't any kind of evidence in favor of Connolly being anything more than better than the likes of Ohrnberger. You're welcome to think that's meaningful. BB brought in a lot of players, and he may have fixed some major weaknesses. However, he hasn't got the safety position down, and he hasn't fixed RG, either.

Starting on a good OL no doubt correlates with being a good OLineman. If you persist in making only indirect observations, that should be important evidence for you. My personal practice is to actually review the play on the field. I started doing that last year in this case precisely because your jihad against Connolly seemed so odd based on what I had casually observed. I'm glad that I did, I learned a lot about the team's OLine. When I reviewed Connolly's play, I saw that he was a surprisingly good pulling guard but could be overpowered at times. So your statement that he isn't a starter despite starting continues to make no sense to me. Or to Scarnecchia either, clearly.

You're welcome to disagree. That's what's so great about free speech and message boards such as this one.

You don't seem to be a fool, so I'll speculate that you have had an agenda. I recall it started with your slamming the front office for going with Connolly and G. Warren instead of signing Mankins and Seymour. I actually have no problem with your questioning the team about those particular decisions, but I do have a problem with your demeaning Dan Connolly to make your point. He's no Mankins, but he's proven he can be an NFL starter, and deserves respect for what he's accomplished.