Curran:Loss all on McCourty

[PatsFan2]

I expect corners to make the plays they are supposed to, and to not repeatedly get beat on routes they are specifically focused on defending, unless they are playing against the truly elite WRs of the league, like a Calvin Johnson. You seem to think that's unreasonable. I don't think it is.

I also expect my QB to avoid INTs. I expect my O-line to avoid giving up sacks. I expect my LBs to avoid missed tackles, etc... When there are failures in these, I consider that to be a bad thing.

I'm a harsh taskmaster that way.

Best post in the entire thrread...can't wait for AJ to spin it.:snob:

 

[TheComeback]

Claiming that a CB "had a few bad plays, but...." is right up there with "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...."

Then go get the all-22 and break it down for us.

 

[Ring 6]

I expect corners to make the plays they are supposed to, and to not repeatedly get beat on routes they are specifically focused on defending, unless they are playing against the truly elite WRs of the league, like a Calvin Johnson. You seem to think that's unreasonable. I don't think it is.

The discussion wasnt about getting repeatedly beaten on routes, it was about 'a few bad plays'. You moved the goalposts before expressing indignation at a concept no one espoused.

I also expect my QB to avoid INTs. I expect my O-line to avoid giving up sacks. I expect my LBs to avoid missed tackles, etc... When there are failures in these, I consider that to be a bad thing.

Me too, but I accept that they will all have 'a few bad plays'.

I'm a harsh taskmaster that way.

If you expect perfection you are actually delusional.

 

[Rob0729]

Eh, different takes off the same film. Greg works hard at it, no doubt.

Have to say, though, if the tackling form showed on the Pitta touchdown is exactly the way the Patriots coach it, it's a wonder teams don't score 100 every week. You're on the scene to assist in the tackle, you break down and get in athletic position regardless of where you're leveraging.

I guess I should have clarified what Bedard was saying. He meant in a situation where Gregory was supposed to either stop or redirect the receiver it is then McCourty's job to knock him out of bounds. That is what they teach in tandem tackling. Unfortunately, Gregory whiffed.

I can see it both ways myself. I can see that McCourty should have taken a better angle, but I also can see that McCourty was counting on Gregory to make the first hit and took the angle based on that assumption. If Gregory did make the hit like he was supposed to, McCourty probably would have knocked Pitta out of bounds at that spot. Easy to second guess it in slow mo on film, but I don't know if he could have re-routed in realtime when Gregory missed.

I do agree with Bedard that Gregory was more at fault though. It was Gregory's coverage and he had the best shot to make the tackle.

Maybe you are right and Bedard is wrong. I tend to agree with Bedard in this case. He is no McCourty apologist and had criticized him a lot during the preseason and even into the regular season.

I know he usually watches the All 22 before writing his wrap analysis. I don't know if you were going off that or the broadcast footage. I know that former players have differing views of his performance depending on what they saw. Ty Law said he stunk watching the game from the broadcast and Zolak said he was mostly great based on watching from broadcast booth where he could see the entire field. I don't know if you were at the game or watching the NBC broadcast. I also Ian tried to break down the broadcast footage and he felt he couldn't tell what his assignment was when he was the first guy to the receiver on a lot of plays (whether it was his guy in coverage or he was the first guy to someone else's assignment).

 

[Ring 6]

I didnt say that, don't put words in my mouth.

That is exactly the result of your criticism. He took the angle that anticipated a potential cutback. If he took the angle anticipating the runner to jump over the safety he would not have been in position for the cutback. You cant have it both ways.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That is exactly the result of your criticism. He took the angle that anticipated a potential cutback. If he took the angle anticipating the runner to jump over the safety he would not have been in position for the cutback. You cant have it both ways.

With slightly better position McCourty could easily push him out of bounds and also be able to engage Pitta in case he tries a cutback. After a jump like that he's going to need more time to rebound from his landing, making him frozen and an easy target.

This isn't rocket science, it just requires a good play on the part of McCourty, but unfortunately his play wasn't good.

 

[Ring 6]

That is totally ignorant and a picture after its over doesnt change that.
The angle to defend the cutback, and the angle to the spot beyond the safety after he jumped over him are completely different.
It is against physics to take both the angle to cover the cut back before the hit and also the angle to the sideline when he jumps over the tackler. You are right it isnt rocket science, but what yuo are saying is physically impossible.

 

[Deus Irae]

The discussion wasnt about getting repeatedly beaten on routes, it was about 'a few bad plays'. You moved the goalposts before expressing indignation at a concept no one espoused.

Part of those "few bad plays" involved getting repeatedly beaten on the same routes. There's no goalpost moving there.

Me too, but I accept that they will all have 'a few bad plays'.

No, you don't. You accept that some players will have a few bad plays. You kill others for doing it. Edelman comes to mind...

McCourty was lousy in the second half of that game. He did not have just "a few bad plays".

If you expect perfection you are actually delusional.

If you expect people, including teammates, coaches and the the individuals themselves, to be happy with players who blow 5-10 plays in a game, particularly when they're blowing plays that are similar, you are the delusional one.

 

[prentice mccray]

When your 5-11, 190 pound teammate is attempting a tackle on a 6-4, 245 pound tight end, it's a good idea to assume he may need some help.

Gregory got beat by a great athletic play. McCourty wasn't prepared to help.

That anyone looks at this and says that's the way to do it is proof we're making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Dennis Pitta Hurdled Steve Gregory and Scored a Touchdown For the Ravens | The Big Lead

I guess I should have clarified what Bedard was saying. He meant in a situation where Gregory was supposed to either stop or redirect the receiver it is then McCourty's job to knock him out of bounds. That is what they teach in tandem tackling. Unfortunately, Gregory whiffed.

I can see it both ways myself. I can see that McCourty should have taken a better angle, but I also can see that McCourty was counting on Gregory to make the first hit and took the angle based on that assumption. If Gregory did make the hit like he was supposed to, McCourty probably would have knocked Pitta out of bounds at that spot. Easy to second guess it in slow mo on film, but I don't know if he could have re-routed in realtime when Gregory missed.

I do agree with Bedard that Gregory was more at fault though. It was Gregory's coverage and he had the best shot to make the tackle.

Maybe you are right and Bedard is wrong. I tend to agree with Bedard in this case. He is no McCourty apologist and had criticized him a lot during the preseason and even into the regular season.

I know he usually watches the All 22 before writing his wrap analysis. I don't know if you were going off that or the broadcast footage. I know that former players have differing views of his performance depending on what they saw. Ty Law said he stunk watching the game from the broadcast and Zolak said he was mostly great based on watching from broadcast booth where he could see the entire field. I don't know if you were at the game or watching the NBC broadcast. I also Ian tried to break down the broadcast footage and he felt he couldn't tell what his assignment was when he was the first guy to the receiver on a lot of plays (whether it was his guy in coverage or he was the first guy to someone else's assignment).

 

[Joker]

yeah,TC...but to blame the loss entirely on McCourty is a tad over the top...c'mon man

 

[PP2]

With slightly better position McCourty could easily push him out of bounds and also be able to engage Pitta in case he tries a cutback. After a jump like that he's going to need more time to rebound from his landing, making him frozen and an easy target.

This isn't rocket science, it just requires a good play on the part of McCourty, but unfortunately his play wasn't good.

McCourty's responsibility is to play the cutback, this one is 100% on Gregory.

 

[Rob0729]

When your 5-11, 190 pound teammate is attempting a tackle on a 6-4, 245 pound tight end, it's a good idea to assume he may need some help.

Gregory got beat by a great athletic play. McCourty wasn't prepared to help.

That anyone looks at this and says that's the way to do it is proof we're making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Dennis Pitta Hurdled Steve Gregory and Scored a Touchdown For the Ravens | The Big Lead

I don't disagree that Gregory would have had a hard time bringing down Pitta, but a 7-2, 290LB CB would have a hard time taking down Pitta if he dove at the ground right in front of Pitta allowing him to easily hop over him like Gregory did. If Gregory did the proper thing and hit Pitta around waist or thigh range (and try to wrap him up rather than trip him), I think McCourty probably would have made the hit to knock Pitta out of bounds.

Again, I can see both sides of the argument on that play. I personally don't think McCourty did his best job on the play, but I also can see he was expecting Gregory to at least slow Pitta down to allow him to make a play.

I mostly agree with Bedard's overall assessment, not specifically that play. I don't think I made that clear in my last post.

 

[PP2]

When your 5-11, 190 pound teammate is attempting a tackle on a 6-4, 245 pound tight end, it's a good idea to assume he may need some help.

Gregory got beat by a great athletic play. McCourty wasn't prepared to help.

That anyone looks at this and says that's the way to do it is proof we're making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Dennis Pitta Hurdled Steve Gregory and Scored a Touchdown For the Ravens | The Big Lead

That white boy jumped all of 2 feet. That isn't a great athletic play but very poor tackling technique from Gregory, right out of the Ronnie Lott school of tackling. Like Kirwan says, everyone wants to do a Ronnie Lott, but very few people had his sense of timing, speed, and knack for seeing a play before it happened, so all they see is a great shoulder hit and try to emulate that.

Rodney Harrison was one of the very few who could do this.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That is totally ignorant and a picture after its over doesnt change that.
The angle to defend the cutback, and the angle to the spot beyond the safety after he jumped over him are completely different.
It is against physics to take both the angle to cover the cut back before the hit and also the angle to the sideline when he jumps over the tackler. You are right it isnt rocket science, but what yuo are saying is physically impossible.

Can McCourty see that Pitta is about to jump? One dips down before the actual jump, where they dip down is going to have a big impact on where they go, Newton's 1st law and all that, as the play is unfolding and he sees where Pitta is going he can change what he's doing to account for it. Where he puts himself initially can allow him to change.

Gregory's effort was pathetic but a good play by McCourty could have gotten Pitta out of bounds and ended the play.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That white boy jumped all of 2 feet. That isn't a great athletic play but very poor tackling technique from Gregory, right out of the Ronnie Lott school of tackling. Like Kirwan says, everyone wants to do a Ronnie Lott, but very few people had his sense of timing, speed, and knack for seeing a play before it happened, so all they see is a great shoulder hit and try to emulate that.

Rodney Harrison was one of the very few who could do this.

What does his color have to do with it? Do you make a habit of referencing color when it's a black guy?

 

[JackBauer]

What does his color have to do with it? Do you make a habit of referencing color when it's a black guy?

Please God, no.

 

[Ring 6]

Part of those "few bad plays" involved getting repeatedly beaten on the same routes. There's no goalpost moving there.

Changing from your opinion being a few bad plays being the equivalent of a Presidential assassination to saying you feel that way because of REPEATEDLY being beaten is absolutely moving the goal posts.
The goal posts stared at a few bad plays and moved to repeatedly being beaten. That is moving.

No, you don't. You accept that some players will have a few bad plays. You kill others for doing it. Edelman comes to mind...

I have never killed Edelman for a few bad plays. I have questioned Edelmans skill for a season or seasons of lacking good plays. Tremendous difference there.

McCourty was lousy in the second half of that game. He did not have just "a few bad plays".

You are the one that commented on 'a few bad plays' being the equaivalent of a woman seeing her husband murdered, not me.

If you expect people, including teammates, coaches and the the individuals themselves, to be happy with players who blow 5-10 plays in a game, particularly when they're blowing plays that are similar, you are the delusional one.

Well, first he didn't blow 5-10 plays. Second my comments were directed to yours about 'a few bad plays'. Again you are diverting the conversation to something else.
If you want to defend your comment by changing the parameters of it, and then embellishing things that weren't even included in it, be my guest, but any objectivity is out the window, and all you are doing is whining.
You have every right to whine, but others have every right to call you out on it. Thats the way a message board works.

 

[Ring 6]

Can McCourty see that Pitta is about to jump? One dips down before the actual jump, where they dip down is going to have a big impact on where they go, Newton's 1st law and all that, as the play is unfolding and he sees where Pitta is going he can change what he's doing to account for it. Where he puts himself initially can allow him to change.

Gregory's effort was pathetic but a good play by McCourty could have gotten Pitta out of bounds and ended the play.

Saying McCourty could have recovered and made a play is one thing. Pretending he should have taken an angle anticipating that in direct conflict with how he is coached is something else entirely.
I'm not thrilled with his play, in fact I thought he hesitated and should have tried to plant Pita, but he approach the play the proper way.

 

[Ring 6]

When your 5-11, 190 pound teammate is attempting a tackle on a 6-4, 245 pound tight end, it's a good idea to assume he may need some help.

Gregory got beat by a great athletic play. McCourty wasn't prepared to help.

That anyone looks at this and says that's the way to do it is proof we're making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

Dennis Pitta Hurdled Steve Gregory and Scored a Touchdown For the Ravens | The Big Lead

That is completely wrong.
He was absolutely in a position to HELP Gregory, had Gregory even slowed the runner down.
You are asking him to take an angle that assumes Gregory doesn't exist.
I would never expect a players proper pursuit angle to look right if there was a tackler approaching the ball carrier head on and ran out of bounds instead, which is the equivalent to Gregory's impact.

 

[jnug]

I really do think we are focusing entirely to much attention on the individuals themselves and not enough on the drafting process that brings them here and what they represent as a group.

I do think that we might end up very pleased with the play of that secondary (remembering how much more difficult it is to play in an NFL secondary since the league decided to stack the deck in favor of receivers) if we just sprinkled a bit more athleticism in that secondary than what we have now.