Crossen vs Dawson

[maineman209]

Dawson was a panic move on the part of the Patriots. The Patriots made a series of downward trades in the 2nd round. Then, there was a run on cornerbacks which forced them to trade up for Dawson.

Dawson had Official Visits with the Pats, Bills, Panthers and Steelers, and private workouts with other teams, including the Saints and the Bucs.

The Pats started the draft with two 2nd-rounders:
... #43 (from SFO for JimmyG) and their own #63.
The Bills had #53 & #56.
CAR had #55.
NOL had traded the #59 to SFO during the 2017 draft.
PIT had #60.

In the 1st round, the Bills traded their #12, #53 & #56 to TBY in order to move up to #7 for Josh Allen.

In the 2nd round ...
- The Pats traded the #43 to DET for the #51 + #117.
......... (DET took RB Kerryon Johnson)
- GBY took CB Josh Jackson at #45.
- The Pats then traded #51 to CHI for the #105 and the Bears 2019 2nd.
......... (CHI took WR Anthony Miller)
- TBY took CB MJ Stewart at #53 (using one of the Bill's picks).
- Carolina took CB Donte Jackson at #55.
- The Pats traded their #63 + #117 (from DET) to TBY for #56 (the other Bills' 2nd rounder) and took Dawson.
- The Steelers took WR James Washington at #60.
- TBY took CB Carlton Davis with the Pats' #63.

The Pats later traded the #105 from CHI to CLE for the #114 & #178.
They then traded the #114 (from CLE) to DET for their 2019 3rd-rounder (#72).
Finally, the Pats used the #178 from CLE to take LB Christian Sam.

So, that series of trades by BB resulted in the Pats getting
Dawson
+ Christian Sam
+ Chicago's 2019 2nd (#56)
+ Detroit's 2019 3rd (#72).

Seems more like skill than "panic" to me.

 

[DarrylS]

I admire folks who can dissect and articulate things that this organization has done, rather than responding to second hand stories or what the guy said on sportstalk...

 

[maineman209]

I watched both of them in college and there wasn’t anything that really indicated they were 2nd rd level talent. Not too fast or athletic. Both starting off hurt or not playing. It is just the same trajectory, I would like to be wrong but these 2nd round C.B. picks just haven’t been anything special.

Dawson had Official Visits with the Pats, Bills, Panthers and Steelers, and private workouts with other teams, including the Saints and the Bucs. He was widely projected to be an early Day-2 pick.

Similar situation with Cy Jones in 2016. He had Official Visits with BUF, PHL, NOL and PIT, and he was invited to the Ravens' Regional Combine (the Ravens were his favorite team, BTW). He was widely projected as a Day-2 pick. The Pats drafted him at #60, on spot ahead of NOL (who took DB Vonn Bell), and 10 spots ahead of the Ravens.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I'm sorry you don't get a pass for missing on a second round pick (not saying that is the case yet) because you (potentially) hit on the same position with a UDFA.

Depends if you are results or process oriented. Is the objective to draft 4 starters including 1 All-pro each year or draft 2 starters out of the first three rounds?

 

[203Pat]

Depends if you are results or process oriented. Is the objective to draft 4 starters including 1 All-pro each year or draft 2 starters out of the first three rounds?

That’s all well and good but draft Capital is valuable and if you continually miss you can’t consistently rely on UDFA’s to fill in spots that you should be drafting starters.

OTOH, you shouldn't be criticized for a pick without a significant injury history who ends up on IR.

I’m not criticizing the pick yet. If he’s a healthy scratch at this time next year then it would be reasonable to question the pick.

 

[PatsFan2]

Florida Gators drafted by Bill:

Duke Dawson:

Dominique Easley:

Jon Halapio:

Jermaine Cunningham:

Brandon Spikes:

Aaron Hernandez:

Chad Jackson:

Jeremy Mincey:

Gus Scott:

That gotta be the Post of the New year. Should we just cut our loses with Dawson already??

 

[203Pat]

That gotta be the Post of the New year. Should we just cut our loses with Dawson already??

Lol cautious optimism.

 

[varjao]

Is this where to insert the thread with all the people freaking out before and during camp about CB2 being a position of need ?

Of course now that the added players worked out it was retroactively not a problem anymore. Obviously.

There were questions at CB2. Thank God JC emerged

At that point JMac was already signed plus Gilmore, Rowe, all the safeties. Secondary was not a huge need, not in any way more than DT/DE, WR, LB, even TE or a QB2.

Also you guys say CB2, the positions above required a #1 player there, except QB and TE (at the time, because now it sure looks like we will need a #1 TE soon).

And Dawson is not exactly the CB2 to replace Butler that was the concern at the time, he is a slot corner undersized who can't cover a receiver outside.

BB and Caserio made a few moves at that point in the draft, trade downs, then trade up, lost draft position without good compensation. It sure looks like a **** up. I'll give them that it's the draft, I'm not condemning anyone. But it's not helping to improve and rejuvenate the roster these past mistakes, it's like 2 or 3 years in a row missing on the draft.

 

[Nunchucks]

I am starting to believe that Dawson will be another in a long line of failed 2nd round DB picks.

 

[RobertWeathers]

At that point JMac was already signed plus Gilmore, Rowe, all the safeties. Secondary was not a huge need, not in any way more than DT/DE, WR, LB, even TE or a QB2.

Also you guys say CB2, the positions above required a #1 player there, except QB and TE (at the time, because now it sure looks like we will need a #1 TE soon).

And Dawson is not exactly the CB2 to replace Butler that was the concern at the time, he is a slot corner undersized who can't cover a receiver outside.

Just because you have bodies doesn't mean you have addressed the problem with a serviceable solution.

I'm surprised you believe we had our CB2 in TC as Rowe, JJ , Duke and JMC were unreliable/unproven on the outside.

 

[Sciz]

And Dawson is not exactly the CB2 to replace Butler that was the concern at the time, he is a slot corner undersized who can't cover a receiver outside.

I have no idea why the roster heights are so messed up, but Dawson is taller than Butler, McCourty, and Jackson, three of the past four players to line up at CB2.

(Jackson, in particular, is more than 3 inches shorter than his listed 6’1” height.)

 

[VectorPrime]

Pats need to stop drafting defensive backs at all. We have better luck just signing UDFAs.

 

[zydecochris]

Not really an appropriate 1-to-1 comparison.

Dawson missed the last couple weeks of Camp and then the first 8 weeks of the regular season. Everybody else in the secondary is pretty much ahead of him now.

Crossen and Melifonwu have both shown ST capabilities (which Dawson may not have shown) and each got a few snaps in during recent games to prepare them for potential (dire) emergency roles (what the Pats typically do near the end of the regular season). Meanwhile, the CB combo of Gilmore, Jackson, JMac and Jon Jones has been working out very well - especially recently.

I don't think it's any slam on Dawson that not yet capable of beating out the guys ahead of him for an active roster spot. He's just behind, that's all. Maybe not by much.

As you say, I don't think that Dawson is necessarily a mistake, we have a bit of an embarrassment of riches at this position. However, that will not always be the case, and BB is always looking a couple of years down the road.

Who are the four oldest Patriot players (who are not QB or kickers)? Edelman (32), the two McCourtys (31), and Chung (31). Thus, although our secondary is playing really, really well right now, clearly it will be getting long in the tooth before too long, with three vital contributors hitting 32 in August. Thus: BB has been extremely active in bringing in new contributors to our secondary and that makes total sense as preparation for the future. Some, like Cyrus Jones, just couldn't compete with all of these other strong DBs on the roster (although I won't be shocked if he is still in the league in a few years). With Dawson, we will just have to see.

 

[mgteich]

I think that the Dawson pick can be evaluated on its own. We picked Dawson at 56, after moving up from 63.

For me, the issue is whether Dawson was a good pick or not. We don't know.
==================
PICK 51
This is the pick where Belichick got all the action and complexity. We got this pick by trading down from 43 (using the extra pick we got to move up for Dawson)

For 51, Belichick got a 2019 2nd, a 2019 3rd, PLUS Sam.

PICK 95
We traded for Trent Brown and 143 (where we picked Bentley)
=======
SUMMARY OF PICKS FROM OUR ORIGINAL 5 PICKS
23 Wynn
31 Michell
43 a 2019 2nd, a 2019 3rd, and Sam
63 Dawson (after trading up little)
95 Trent Brown and Bentley
======
BOTTOM LINE
IMHO, the only questionable pick was Dawson, and he is still a potential contributor, or even starter.

.
So, that series of trades by BB resulted in the Pats getting
Dawson
+ Christian Sam
+ Chicago's 2019 2nd (#56)
+ Detroit's 2019 3rd (#72).

Seems more like skill than "panic" to me.

 

[maineman209]

And Dawson is not exactly the CB2 to replace Butler that was the concern at the time, he is a slot corner undersized who can't cover a receiver outside.

Dawson is 5105/197. Butler is 5110/190. As far as Dawson not being able to cover a receiver outside, how TF can anyone even come close the knowing that yet?

BB and Caserio made a few moves at that point in the draft, trade downs, then trade up, lost draft position without good compensation. It sure looks like a **** up.

"...ost draft position without good compensation" ??

So, getting ...
- Dawson
- Christian Sam
- a 2019 2nd-rounder (#56)
- and a 2019 3rd-rounder (#72)
... isn't good enough compensation??