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Colts losing Howard Mudd to retirement

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Colts play the AFC East with 1 legit team, the NFC West which has none, and have 4 games against Houston and Jacksonville who they will handle like they do every year. Those 12 games will probably be 9 wins. They are winning double digit games again as long as Peyton is healthy.
 
We won 8 or 9 in a row to finish the season. So yes, once Manning got healthy and we made some other tweaks, we were a top team. We beat PIT in PIT, for example. We would have beat SD in SD twice in the same year had Mudd's OL not done so pathetically in short yardage situations in that game.

Please tell me that you know this isn't true and you were joking....

The Patriots, Texans and Titans gave the Colts wins. The other games in that stretch included the Lions, Bengals, Jaguars and Browns.
 
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It's cumulative workhorse. Dungy wasn't handpicked by Polian because he was the flavor of the month in HC'ing. He was this unique individual who had a pretty firm mastery of a defense that didn't require some of the most expensive pieces in the game, he was a teacher, he was a facilitator and mentor, he had both cache and the kind of disposition and demeanor needed to keep a top heavy offensive team like the colts from fracturing, even absent his own coaching staff, and he had the capacity to get a talent like Manning to take a step back and reign in his own instincts in favor of allowing a team to form an identity around him and not just through him.

Losing him along with Harrrison, Mudd, possibly Moore while replacing him with a home grown rookie HC who seems oddly focused on tweeking the Dungy defense is a lot. I think that is why Polian took the RB in the first. Less new faces in Manning portion of the offense, hope the existing players can replicate what they've already been taught, focus on running the ball better just in case, pray Tennessee takes a step back and neither Jaxonville or Houston finally click. Dungy never had much to do with that offense beyond morally supporting it and suggesting it try to be more and balanced. Somebody has to run the practices and coach up youngsters and critique the veteran players and make decisions on the roster, and broker coaching compromises and deal with the media fallout...and that isn't Peyton's place, and if it defacto became it in the absence of Dungy, Mudd and Moore, the backlash could potentially be nasty.

Polian also already has a lot on his plate what with the overall economy, problems with the stadium, an impending uncapped year, potential labor unrest and Peyton's contract running out in 2010 (or 2012 if he doesn't opt to void which would be unusual for a Condon client). Coming off the kind of gift wrapped 12 win season you guys managed to pull off last year, this could be finally be the long anticipated beginning of the end of the Manning era Colts.

We got some issues looming too, as most teams do, but Bill has dealt with those frequently over the last decade here. Won his first Superbowl after losing his #1 drafted franchise QB in week 2, won 2 more and got to a third with his 6th round replacement, and even managed to win 11 games after losing Brady for an entire season in the first quarter of last season. He has a stronger base or overall foundation (part of which is rooted in the system) to work with than Polian has had in Indy. You guys have always pointed to that when it suits you, as well as acknowledging that Manning is the franchise in Indy. Only Manning has always required a cumbersome support system. Polian has always had a vision of what will win, but he's also not capable of successfully implementing it himself as a GM, he's needed a HC and coaching staff to do that, and he has more stringent financial limits to work with in assembling all of the above due to market size and an ownership not nearly as financially strong and savvy as the Krafts.

It may not be a disastrous season in Indy, but don't make it sound like it doesn't have that potential written all over it...

What you say about Dungy is very fair and makes sense. He wasn't a great coach in every way, but in the ways that you mention, he certainly was. With that said, Caldwell has been here for a long time, so hopefully he has learned from Dungy. That wouldn't be unreasonable to expect. Manning also learned under Dungy, and should be able to continue with those lessons going forward. Manning did go 13-3 in his second season in the NFL before Dungy got there in an amazing year by him, so don't make it seem like the guy was a lost soul or anything before Dungy got there.

Caldwell isn't really tweaking anything though on defense, despite what you may read. We've had big DTs in the past like Simon, Booger, and Pit****; they've just flamed out. The drafting of DTs would have happened with Dungy here as well. And he hired his own DC that he's comfortable with that coached on Tampa's staff the last two years. Maybe Caldwell thought that Meeks was just a figurehead for Dungy, and he wanted a stronger teacher in here? Again, I don't see anything unreasonable there.

As for Mudd/Moore, again, shouldn't they bear some blame for the mediocre running game we've had most of their existance here? Even when Edge was in his prime, our running game scared nobody.
 
Please tell me that you know this isn't true and you were joking....

What isn't true? We win the playoff game had we not been stopped on 4th down and short in their territory in the 3rd quarter. Or more importantly, had Jeff Saturday not fallen down on 2nd and 4 at the end of regulation, allowing Jamal Williams to tackle Addai near the line.
 
Please tell me that you know this isn't true and you were joking....

The Patriots, Texans and Titans gave the Colts wins. The other games in that stretch included the Lions, Bengals, Jaguars and Browns.

Ahh, sorry, I missed the bottom part, you must have revised it. The Pats, maybe, although you couldn't stop our passing game, and it's no sure thing you would have won even without the Thomas/Gaffney plays (Correct me if I'm wrong there, I can't exactly remember the scoring situation).

That Texans game you're speaking of was in the beginning of the year, when we were a mess.

The Titans wouldn't have beat us in Indy, in particular considering Haynesworth and KVB were hurt.
 
I think if you could have wrapped Sproles up you might have won the game.
Anyway every team has holes, last year it was our O-line(minor), Pass Rush, and Secondary. Two problems you cannot afford to have in the NFL are O-Line and Run Defense. You have taken strides to fix the problem but IMO your going to see a lot of 100 yard rushers against your D this year. MJ-D, Chris Johnson/LenDale White, Ronnie Brown are the prime candidates for the Job.

Maybe so. I just know I feel much more comfortable with a rotation of the Johnsons and Fili Moala (or possibly Terrance Taylor), then I did in the beginning of last year with 270lbers Dawson and Foster, and street free agent Lajuan Ramsey.

As for OL, Saturday not missing so many games due to injuries will make a big difference there. Not only bc we won't be starting a rookie 7th round pick at center like we did last year, but also bc he is our best blocker by far. And you'd have to think that Pollak will play better than he did as a rookie (if he doesn't, he may need to be replaced). And by some miracle, maybe Ugoh can play 16 games without getting hurt.
 
Winning games doesn't necessarily mean you're a great team.

Yeah, sure, that makes sense. In that scenario no matter how many games NE wins you can argue they're not necessarily a great team. Great analysis. What the hell does winning games mean anyway?
 
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Mudd has indicated that he wants to stay on with the team as a "consultant" but that was one of the areas that the owners were looking to change with the pension plan, so I don't know if it will happen.
 
Yeah, sure, that makes sense. In that scenario no matter how many games NE wins you can argue they're not necessarily a great team. Great analysis. What the hell does winning games mean anyway?

The Dolphins won 11 games. Were they a great team? It's not just about wins. It's about schedule, luck and more. You can be an 11 win team and not be anything like a great team.
 
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Mudd has indicated that he wants to stay on with the team as a "consultant" but that was one of the areas that the owners were looking to change with the pension plan, so I don't know if it will happen.

Back to the retirement issue:

Colts OC Considering Retirement
From Chris Mortensen of ESPN.com:

Confusion and mistrust over changes in the league’s pension program is wreaking havoc with some NFL teams’ coaching staffs, including the pending retirement of Indianapolis Colts offensive coordinator Tom Moore and offensive line coach Howard Mudd, according to Larry Kennan, executive director of the NFL Coaches Association.

Kennan confirmed that Mudd has “already filed his retirement papers” and added that he believes Moore is “just about there.”

“What a travesty it would be that two of the most successful coaches in the history of this league feel compelled to retire because of the owners’ greed and the state of confusion by recent changes in the pension plan,” said Kennan. “And let me tell you something: They don’t want to bail on the Colts but they just may feel like they have no other choice.”


But you won't be alone. Apparently upwards of 17 teams including the Patriots have opted out and others are on the fence. There are rumors that the association that represents the coaches and football staff (teams administrative and office personnel were also covered by this plan) is considering forming itself into a union and there may be some sort of organized walkouts as the season approaches. Not much to lose since most are only signed through 2010 because of labor concerns...

The changes effect different classes of coaches differently. The long timers are losing out on their lump sum options, while the younger guys will be losing portability in a league where there are no guarantees pending the end of any season. Younger coaches may feel they have to select jobs in part based on who still offers the plan they've had and who makes you start over. As I understand it the changes made in March also preclude double dipping (going back as a high paid "consultant" once you retire.

It will be interesting to see if Scarnecchia has any issues here. Thing is Kraft has a way of smoothing those over (and making up the difference) with potential positions he can offer well into retirement with the Brand as opposed to the team. Ditto with retiring players. I don't think too many other organization can take that approach (probably Dallas). Things like owning The Kraft Media Group, Patriots Place, the HOF at PP, a myriad of deals with sponsors and advertisters and radio stations, etc. make it easier to absorb guys within the broader Kraft football related holdings or connections post career.
 
Hopefully losing all of these coordinators will hurt Indy. A nice 6-10 season for the Colts would be refreshing. I like seeing Peyton suffer through a bad year.

Although, it doesn't really matter if they make the playoffs or not since they're bounced in the first round almost every year they make it.
 
The long timers are losing out on their lump sum options, while the younger guys will be losing portability in a league where there are no guarantees pending the end of any season.

Holy smokes, what a mess. Pensions are all about longevity. If you spend 25 years as an NFL assistant coach with 6 different teams, that used to count as 25 solid years earning your way toward retirement benefits. So now it might amount to almost nothing, because the clock gets reset every time you switch teams? Or maybe you finally get your shot at the coordinator position you always dreamed of, but you're still 3 months shy of vesting your pension at your current team so you have to stay put?

The reality of the league is that a Dante who outlasts HC after HC is the rarest of birds. Assistants have little control over their own fates. If the HC who picked you loses his job, you're out. Coaches move constantly. Howard Mudd is with his 9th NFL team, and he's been more stable than most. That's how the league works, so the pension system should be leaguewide, IMO.
 


Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
Holy smokes, what a mess. Pensions are all about longevity. If you spend 25 years as an NFL assistant coach with 6 different teams, that used to count as 25 solid years earning your way toward retirement benefits. So now it might amount to almost nothing, because the clock gets reset every time you switch teams? Or maybe you finally get your shot at the coordinator position you always dreamed of, but you're still 3 months shy of vesting your pension at your current team so you have to stay put?

The reality of the league is that a Dante who outlasts HC after HC is the rarest of birds. Assistants have little control over their own fates. If the HC who picked you loses his job, you're out. Coaches move constantly. Howard Mudd is with his 9th NFL team, and he's been more stable than most. That's how the league works, so the pension system should be leaguewide, IMO.

100% agree. This is ridiculous, and it's going to result in a PR battle that the owners absolutely cannot win.
 
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Holy smokes, what a mess. Pensions are all about longevity. If you spend 25 years as an NFL assistant coach with 6 different teams, that used to count as 25 solid years earning your way toward retirement benefits. So now it might amount to almost nothing, because the clock gets reset every time you switch teams? Or maybe you finally get your shot at the coordinator position you always dreamed of, but you're still 3 months shy of vesting your pension at your current team so you have to stay put?

The reality of the league is that a Dante who outlasts HC after HC is the rarest of birds. Assistants have little control over their own fates. If the HC who picked you loses his job, you're out. Coaches move constantly. Howard Mudd is with his 9th NFL team, and he's been more stable than most. That's how the league works, so the pension system should be leaguewide, IMO.

How is it any different than, say, myself? I may be with 10 different companies over the years, but I keep contributing to my 401k, and other savings. Perhaps they should forgo pensions entirely, and do what most of the rest of the US does - 401k and other retirement savings vehicles?
 
How is it any different than, say, myself? I may be with 10 different companies over the years, but I keep contributing to my 401k, and other savings. Perhaps they should forgo pensions entirely, and do what most of the rest of the US does - 401k and other retirement savings vehicles?

Because you don't work for a league, subject to league employment rules and league antitrust exemptions. An NFL franchise isn't truly an independent business.

Plus the reality of the employment culture in the NFL is that assistant coaches are expected to be constantly on the move. In your line of work, is it standard practice that every time a manager loses his job, everyone who worked for him is fired?
 
The vote was to allow individual teams to opt out. A couple apparently did immediately. We have no idea who they are beyond Indy. Perhaps Kraft isn't intending to.

The Colts have continued to pay into the pension even though it's no longer mandatory.
 
The vote was to allow individual teams to opt out. A couple apparently did immediately. We have no idea who they are beyond Indy. Perhaps Kraft isn't intending to.

The Patriots are one of the teams that have opted out.
 
The Patriots are one of the teams that have opted out.

I know, that's why i posted this a while ago...

me said:
Apparently upwards of 17 teams including the Patriots have opted out and others are on the fence.
 
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