Brownback asserts Manning, not Favre, is greatest QB

[zippo59]

I can't think of another QB in history that has been in a better situation than Peyton Manning. The Colts have made it very clear that their absolute number one priority is surrounding Manning with every weapon he could ask for, even if that means neglecting other aspects of the tea. Next year Peyton Manning will have three first round wide receivers to throw to, as well a first round tight end, and a first round running back.

Did you know that Peyton Manning has never not had a first round running back on his team? Not only that but there has only been one year in his career where he hasn't had a future Hall of Fame running back on his team.

Did you know that Peyton Manning has only had one year where his team did have a 1000 yard rusher?

Did you know that Peyton Manning has had the same future Hall of Fame wide reciver to throw to his entire career?

Did you know that he has had a 1,000 yard receiver every year except one in his career? Did you know that since 1996 the Colts have spent 7 out of 11 first round draft picks picks on offense, (not including Peyton Manning himself.)

The Colts entire offense is designed around Peyton Manning and his strengths. The lack of turnover they have had is remarkable. They have had the same core of players and coaches for years and their familiarity really shows. Even losing Edgerrin James, there offense slowed down a little at the beginning of the year but they were able to get back in stride with a little time because they still had the same core players on the rest of the offense. As someone said, Peyton Manning can run that offense with his eyes closed. Bill Polian built the high flying Bills offense of the 90's and he's built this one in the same mold. He builds offenses that out up huge numbers and are litered with stars. It's what he does, and if you don't think Manning has greatly benifited form that then you are dead wrong. After everything the Colts have done for him it's almost as if he would be underachieving if didn't put up the kind of numbers he does.

And while we are throwing out statistics, Peyton Manning had statistically the worst postseason of any quarterback who won the Superbowl.

I still think Manning is a great QB and a first ballot Hall of Famer, but I think a lot more than numbers has to be taken into account when talking about the GOAT.

 

[Nordberg]

I can't think of another QB in history that has been in a better situation than Peyton Manning. The Colts have made it very clear that their absolute number one priority is surrounding Manning with every weapon he could ask for, even if that means neglecting other aspects of the tea. Next year Peyton Manning will have three first round wide receivers to throw to, as well a first round tight end, and a first round running back.

Did you know that Peyton Manning has never not had a first round running back on his team? Not only that but there has only been one year in his career where he hasn't had a future Hall of Fame running back on his team.

Did you know that Peyton Manning has only had one year where his team did have a 1000 yard rusher?

Did you know that Peyton Manning has had the same future Hall of Fame wide reciver to throw to his entire career?

Did you know that he has had a 1,000 yard receiver every year except one in his career? Did you know that since 1996 the Colts have spent 7 out of 11 first round draft picks picks on offense, (not including Peyton Manning himself.)

The Colts entire offense is designed around Peyton Manning and his strengths. The lack of turnover they have had is remarkable. They have had the same core of players and coaches for years and their familiarity really shows. Even losing Edgerrin James, there offense slowed down a little at the beginning of the year but they were able to get back in stride with a little time because they still had the same core players on the rest of the offense. As someone said, Peyton Manning can run that offense with his eyes closed. Bill Polian built the high flying Bills offense of the 90's and he's built this one in the same mold. He builds offenses that out up huge numbers and are litered with stars. It's what he does, and if you don't think Manning has greatly benifited form that then you are dead wrong. After everything the Colts have done for him it's almost as if he would be underachieving if didn't put up the kind of numbers he does.

And while we are throwing out statistics, Peyton Manning had statistically the worst postseason of any quarterback who won the Superbowl.

I still think Manning is a great QB and a first ballot Hall of Famer, but I think a lot more than numbers has to be taken into account when talking about the GOAT.

Couldn't have said it better myself Zippo....great job.

The question remains....What would Unitas, Marion, Elway, Brady, and Montana have done with Bill Polian putting a similar cast around them.

I thought so........

 

[richpats]

Not only as Manning thrown to two all pro's.....but he has thrown to them for just about his entire career. Think about the kind of repore all three of them have together. There is no doubt in my mind.....Brady would run away with the Brady vs. Manning debate, if he was put in the same position. Manning should be able to run that offense with his eyes closed by now. I don't wish injury on anyone....but I must say, I wouldn't mind seeing both Wayne and Harrison go down with minor injuries for a few weeks....just to see how Manning would cope.

I think Father Time will eventually lessen the threat posed by Marvin Harrison, and don't forget that Tony Dungy is retiring after this season. This could also take OC Tom Moore out of the picture. I think by 2008, Manning will have some key personnel changes to work through.

Another point I've made since the SB is that Manning's play in previous postseasons is seen in a new light now. Before he simply had the 'out' of being beaten by a better team, and now that he has reached the promised land, the question is, why couldn't he do it before? He's even admitted that his own play has cost his team in the playoffs in previous years.

 

[evendelae]

John Elway...LOL...John does not even hold the season TD record for Denver, Jack Plummer does. John never threw more than 27 TDs in a season. John's career completion % is only 56. John threw for 4,000 yds only once in his career. Peyton lost Edgerrin James and won a SB. John needed Terrell Davis to win his.

Did you watch the **** team they fielded in the eighties? I thought not. It doesn't matter how many TD's you thorw if you win, which is what John did. Brady won't even come close to sniffing his record.

I know Favre's going to get it, but it's taken him two years longer than Elway to get the record. So Elway is still the winningest QB ever, imo.

And the best.

 

[workhorse]

Did you know that Peyton Manning has never not had a first round running back on his team? Not only that but there has only been one year in his career where he hasn't had a future Hall of Fame running back on his team.

Did you know that Peyton Manning has only had one year where his team did have a 1000 yard rusher?

It all depends on how you look at it. I guess your are saying Addai isn't going to the Hall of Fame. Does it count when Edge was out with a blown out knee and an undrafted rookie free agent (Dom Rhodes) replaced him?

The way that you word your statements could mislead those not familiar to the Colts a bit. During Peyton's time with the Colts there has been three starting running backs. Nearly the entire time Peyton has been in Indy, Edge was his running back. It's not like they have had a dozen of #1 RBs coming in the door. Faulk during Peyton's rookie year. In Peyton's second year the Colts drafted Edge, who was with the Colts for 7 seasons. The third is Rhodes. Rhodes finished out the season that Edge blew out his knee and he started all of last season's games. You might be able to argue that Peyton makes his backs better, outside of Faulk. James rushed for 6 TDs @ 3.4 per carry last season. When Rhodes replaced Edge he ran for 1100 yards and 9 TDs in 10 games. He was the first undrafted running back to run for 1000 yards in a season. Heck Addai was the only rookie to rush for 1000 yards last season and he did not start a game (his first start came in the playoffs).

 

[Nordberg]

It all depends on how you look at it. I guess your are saying Addai isn't going to the Hall of Fame. Does it count when Edge was out with a blown out knee and an undrafted rookie free agent (Dom Rhodes) replaced him?

The way that you word your statements could mislead those not familiar to the Colts a bit. During Peyton's time with the Colts there has been three starting running backs. Nearly the entire time Peyton has been in Indy, Edge was his running back. It's not like they have had a dozen of #1 RBs coming in the door. Faulk during Peyton's rookie year. In Peyton's second year the Colts drafted Edge, who was with the Colts for 7 seasons. The third is Rhodes. Rhodes finished out the season that Edge blew out his knee and he started all of last season's games. You might be able to argue that Peyton makes his backs better, outside of Faulk. James rushed for 6 TDs @ 3.4 per carry last season. When Rhodes replaced Edge he ran for 1100 yards and 9 TDs in 10 games. He was the first undrafted running back to run for 1000 yards in a season. Heck Addai was the only rookie to rush for 1000 yards last season and he did not start a game (his first start came in the playoffs).

I agree with what you are saying....but I also think you could put just about any average back in that offense, and he would be pretty productive. As I have stated a million times. The running game is the absolute last thing defenses try to stop when playing the Colts.

That is all credit to the Colts having the best passing offense in the league...maybe ever. Yes....Manning has alot to do with that, but it's more due to the fact that he has been throwing the ball to two all pro's for most of his career, in the same offense to boot. As someone else commented.....Manning has had everthing given to him on a silver plater.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Which counts more towards being a great QB; Winning Games or Stats. Now lets forget about Brady and Manning when discussing this.

You want a guy that is a great field general, who can make the plays when they need to be made, a guy who knows how to win football games. Being able to read defences and make the smart choice. I know only good QB's have great stats so I am discounting them as being a good indicator, but I feel that a great QB has to be someone who you would want to be in a foxhole with! When you play with him you feel that your gonna win cause he is there.

I just feel it is more than stats to it, you want a guy there who you can say this guy is the man and with him were not gonna lose......

That was one of my points, It's not always about stats, sometimes it's about situations. Besides Brady's 2001 season, he has never had an 1000 yard season receiver. He has never had a GREAT receiver (Brown & Deion were good, not great).

When comparing Marino to Manning, I'd give the edge to Marino, he never had the weapons that Manning has had.

Stats are interesting, but they dont paint the complete picture. I'd take Montana over Manning any day of the week. And to quote someone here, to not think that's true is crazy.

 

[IndyDrummer]

I think Father Time will eventually lessen the threat posed by Marvin Harrison, and don't forget that Tony Dungy is retiring after this season. This could also take OC Tom Moore out of the picture. I think by 2008, Manning will have some key personnel changes to work through.

Exactally where did you get that scoop on Dungy? And, incase no one has noticed, Peyton runs that O on his own and has for years. A change in personnel will have no impact on his numbers. I hope not anyway, since every coach on the team is retiring after next year.........

 

[Nordberg]

Exactally where did you get that scoop on Dungy? And, incase no one has noticed, Peyton runs that O on his own and has for years. A change in personnel will have no impact on his numbers. I hope not anyway, since every coach on the team is retiring after next year.........

Keep telling yourself that, if it makes you happy

 

[zippo59]

It all depends on how you look at it. I guess your are saying Addai isn't going to the Hall of Fame. Does it count when Edge was out with a blown out knee and an undrafted rookie free agent (Dom Rhodes) replaced him?

The way that you word your statements could mislead those not familiar to the Colts a bit. During Peyton's time with the Colts there has been three starting running backs. Nearly the entire time Peyton has been in Indy, Edge was his running back. It's not like they have had a dozen of #1 RBs coming in the door. Faulk during Peyton's rookie year. In Peyton's second year the Colts drafted Edge, who was with the Colts for 7 seasons. The third is Rhodes. Rhodes finished out the season that Edge blew out his knee and he started all of last season's games. You might be able to argue that Peyton makes his backs better, outside of Faulk. James rushed for 6 TDs @ 3.4 per carry last season. When Rhodes replaced Edge he ran for 1100 yards and 9 TDs in 10 games. He was the first undrafted running back to run for 1000 yards in a season. Heck Addai was the only rookie to rush for 1000 yards last season and he did not start a game (his first start came in the playoffs).

Yes, James was the running back for alsmot all of Manning's career, but that certainly has to be more of an advanatge than switching running backs every few years.

And obviously Addai isn't a future Hall of Famer as of now but he is still a good back.

And when James went down with a knee injury and Rhodes came in Manning and the Colts struggled despite Rhodes putting up good numbers.

 

[Jacky Roberts]

I'd definitely put Manning ahead of Favre, and probably Marino, too. But someone needs to stop this "Greatest of all time" crap. I guess we all knew the mediots would come out with this crap after he finally won a SB.

 

[Jacky Roberts]

Duh, Peyton Manning is the best!!!!!!

I wish they would define "Best". Stats? Yes. All I know is I wouldn't want Manning as my QB if my life were on the line, so how does that make him the "best". LOL.

 

[Fixit]

Waitasec, a politician screwed up a sports analogy/metaphor whilst pandering to the local folk? No way!

 

[zippo59]

Waitasec, a politician screwed up a sports analogy/metaphor whilst pandering to the local folk? No way!

Yeah, just ask Manny Ortiz.

 

[richpats]

Exactally where did you get that scoop on Dungy? And, incase no one has noticed, Peyton runs that O on his own and has for years. A change in personnel will have no impact on his numbers. I hope not anyway, since every coach on the team is retiring after next year.........

Dungy is coming back to TRY and defend the title, though he had contemplated retirement:

http://www.tribstar.com/colts/local_story_050234207.html

That worked out well for Bill Cowher, didn't it?

So are you as confident in Peyton if he had say, Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney as his top 2 wideouts?

 

[Peytonsbetter]

I am a life long Pats fan and I too used to not give Peyton the credit he may have deserved because he could not beat our Pats or win the big game. We'll after last year we can no longer say that. And looking back on his career and stats now that he has beaten the Pats and won the big game he is clearly, to me, the greatest QB of all time. I like Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino and etc. But when you look at Peytons career stats and performance it is not even close. Here are just a few.

4,000 yd seasons
Peyton Manning 7
Dan Marino 6
Bret Farve 4
John Elway 1
Tom Brady 1
Joe Montana 0

Career Completion %
Peyton Manning 64
Dan Marino 59
Bret Farve 61
John Elway 57
Tom Brady 62
Joe Montana 63

Career TD to INT Ratio
Peyton Manning 1.97
Dan Marino 1.7
Bret Farve 1.5
John Elway 1.2
Tom Brady 1.88
Joe Montana 1.96

Single Season TD High
Peyton Manning 49
Dan Marino 48
Bret Farve 39
John Elway 27
Tom Brady 28
Joe Montana 31

Career QB Rating
Peyton Manning 94
Dan Marino 86
Bret Farve 85
John Elway 80
Tom Brady 88
Joe Montana 92

The stats go on and on. If you project his numbers out to 17 seasons like Marino then he will own all the nfl records.

I also think Tom Brady has gotten a couple of free passes from us the last two seasons. Look at what has happened;

2006-2007 AFC Championship - 4th QTR Peyton drives the length of the field on Pats for gaming winning score. Tom thows INT to end game.

2006-2007 Playoff Game - Tom has bad game with QB rating 57.6 If Troy Brown doesn't turn INT into fumble then season over for Pats.

2005-2006 Playoff Game - Tom throws game breaking INT to Champ Baily in end zone. Tom is trying to throw the ball to Troy Brown who is being covered by the best cornerback in the game.

Great post. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Peytonsbetter]

Yes, James was the running back for alsmot all of Manning's career, but that certainly has to be more of an advanatge than switching running backs every few years.

And obviously Addai isn't a future Hall of Famer as of now but he is still a good back.

And when James went down with a knee injury and Rhodes came in Manning and the Colts struggled despite Rhodes putting up good numbers.

The Colt's struggled that year because of their God-awful, Vic Fangio/Jim Mora, matador defense. It was one of the 10 worst defenses of all time, if I recall correctly. Mora's refusal to fire Fangio after that season is what led to his firing. "Playoffs? PLAYOFFS?"

The Colts offense was ranked 2nd that year, behind only the Rams.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I am a life long Pats fan and I too used to not give Peyton the credit he may have deserved because he could not beat our Pats or win the big game. We'll after last year we can no longer say that. And looking back on his career and stats now that he has beaten the Pats and won the big game he is clearly, to me, the greatest QB of all time. I like Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino and etc. But when you look at Peytons career stats and performance it is not even close. Here are just a few.

4,000 yd seasons
Peyton Manning 7
Dan Marino 6
Bret Farve 4
John Elway 1
Tom Brady 1
Joe Montana 0

Career Completion %
Peyton Manning 64
Dan Marino 59
Bret Farve 61
John Elway 57
Tom Brady 62
Joe Montana 63

Career TD to INT Ratio
Peyton Manning 1.97
Dan Marino 1.7
Bret Farve 1.5
John Elway 1.2
Tom Brady 1.88
Joe Montana 1.96

Single Season TD High
Peyton Manning 49
Dan Marino 48
Bret Farve 39
John Elway 27
Tom Brady 28
Joe Montana 31

Career QB Rating
Peyton Manning 94
Dan Marino 86
Bret Farve 85
John Elway 80
Tom Brady 88
Joe Montana 92

The stats go on and on. If you project his numbers out to 17 seasons like Marino then he will own all the nfl records.

I also think Tom Brady has gotten a couple of free passes from us the last two seasons. Look at what has happened;

2006-2007 AFC Championship - 4th QTR Peyton drives the length of the field on Pats for gaming winning score. Tom thows INT to end game.

2006-2007 Playoff Game - Tom has bad game with QB rating 57.6 If Troy Brown doesn't turn INT into fumble then season over for Pats.

2005-2006 Playoff Game - Tom throws game breaking INT to Champ Baily in end zone. Tom is trying to throw the ball to Troy Brown who is being covered by the best cornerback in the game.

Two points, in addition to thanking you for the research and your analysis.

One: the only stat you left out that is, IMO, relevant and important here, is Regular Season Games Played, where our TB, who has done quite well statwise to date, has ample time to show that he should be considered, statwise, as one of the all time greatest QB's.

Regular Season Games Played
Peyton Manning 144
Dan Marino 242
Bret Farve 241
John Elway 234
Tom Brady 96
Joe Montana 192

Two: it's very difficult for any individual to earn the right to be mentioned in the same sentence as the words "is one of the all time greatest NFL Quarterbacks."

To me, the right to be mentioned in that sentence is a combination of Stats and multiple Rings. Right now, IMO, limiting myself to the QB's on the list you presented, only three belong in that sentence today.

Montana alone belongs there by both measures.

Marino belongs there by the measure of Stats.

Brady belongs there by the measure of Rings. Why? Only FOUR QB's have won three or more SB's (Joe, Bradshaw, Aikman and TB), but another five, including Elway, have won two and another 17 (including Peyton Manning--and, BTW,Trent Dilfer) have won one. He may one day belong there, as does Montana, by both the measure of stats and rings.

As for the rest,

Manning will no doubt one day belong there by virtue of his stats, but he has to continue his excellence for another three to five seasons. He might also belong there by virtue of SB wins, but I hope that never happens, as it will be at our expense.

As for Favre, I think you could argue either way whether he belongs in that sentence. I wouldn't put him there. One ring and leading a team to only two SB's in a weak NFC shades him off the list. Also, creating a perennial distraction to his team in his final years keeps him off the list as well.

Elway's stats are not good enough to put him in that sentence, despite his two rings.

 

[Buchanty]

I agree with most of what you say Patsfan, but as far as greatest QB ever I think the 3 most important characteristics are strength of character, championships and finally stats.

Strength of character is the ability to inspire and perform well against the odds. It is earning the respect of ones teammates, then coaches then fans and lastly the media. It is setting an example to current and future generations of players and being heroic in victory and defeat.

Championships are the next measure because they indicate the ability to deliver those characteristics in the highest level of competition. The more you have the more you have proved, because with a little bit of luck (Dilfer, Johnson) you can always get a singleton.

Stats are incredibly misleading and perhaps the area where most people base their opinions because they confuse stats with facts. High numbers of yards and touchdowns mean very little if gained against weak competition. High percentage completions and TD/INT ratios depend on the quality and performance of other team members.

By these measures I cannot include Manning or Marino in the short list of the greatest. To my mind they are and were Stat machines and beat up on the weaker clubs. How many times has Peyton run up the scoreboard and thrown unnecessary TDs when the game was long since won. He is nothing less than a bully and shines most when the competition is the weakest. He does have incredible talent but it is seen mostly at the beginning of the season and rarely in the post season, his superbowl run was less than statistically glowing. I admit that he has had a couple of memorable games against good competition but these can be counted on the fingers of one hand, which over the course of 8 seasons means that it doesnt happen that often. Finally I go back to the strength of character requirement for the greatest and there PM is woefully short as he is always quick to blame other people for mistakes and failure on the field. And when things are a little more demanding his performance dips, get him scrambling and off balance and he becomes as inaccurate as everyone else in the league in such situations. I also find him greedy (how many endorsement and money does he need for goodness sake) and self absorbed but that is besides the point.

There are very few who can be honestly viewed as the greatest - Montana and Unitas. Brady isnt even in that mix yet, although he could be with a couple more rings. I would rate Peyton along with Elway, Favre and Aikman who were well above average, but never in the class of the "greatest".

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I agree with most of what you say Patsfan, but as far as greatest QB ever I think the 3 most important characteristics are strength of character, championships and finally stats.

Strength of character is the ability to inspire and perform well against the odds. It is earning the respect of ones teammates, then coaches then fans and lastly the media. It is setting an example to current and future generations of players and being heroic in victory and defeat.

Championships are the next measure because they indicate the ability to deliver those characteristics in the highest level of competition. The more you have the more you have proved, because with a little bit of luck (Dilfer, Johnson) you can always get a singleton.

Stats are incredibly misleading and perhaps the area where most people base their opinions because they confuse stats with facts. High numbers of yards and touchdowns mean very little if gained against weak competition. High percentage completions and TD/INT ratios depend on the quality and performance of other team members.

By these measures I cannot include Manning or Marino in the short list of the greatest. To my mind they are and were Stat machines and beat up on the weaker clubs. How many times has Peyton run up the scoreboard and thrown unnecessary TDs when the game was long since won. He is nothing less than a bully and shines most when the competition is the weakest. He does have incredible talent but it is seen mostly at the beginning of the season and rarely in the post season, his superbowl run was less than statistically glowing. I admit that he has had a couple of memorable games against good competition but these can be counted on the fingers of one hand, which over the course of 8 seasons means that it doesnt happen that often. Finally I go back to the strength of character requirement for the greatest and there PM is woefully short as he is always quick to blame other people for mistakes and failure on the field. And when things are a little more demanding his performance dips, get him scrambling and off balance and he becomes as inaccurate as everyone else in the league in such situations. I also find him greedy (how many endorsement and money does he need for goodness sake) and self absorbed but that is besides the point.

There are very few who can be honestly viewed as the greatest - Montana and Unitas. Brady isnt even in that mix yet, although he could be with a couple more rings. I would rate Peyton along with Elway, Favre and Aikman who were well above average, but never in the class of the "greatest".

Thanks for your thoughtful response and welcome to the Board.

I disagree. I think strength of character is important indeed, but it is something whose definition can be debated and that arguably changes with each generation (a guy who fathered a child out of wedlock would not have been viewed as having "character" 40 years ago, but I don't think many would pass that judgment on TB today)--I don't want to get into a moral-relativism argument here as this is not a philosophy board, I'm just saying that definitions change and different people define character differently. if "strength of character" is equal to "leadership," then "rings" captures it.

So, I think that that sticking to stats and rings is the best way to put someone on a hallowed list. For example, there is little debate that Jack Nicklaus' 18 Majors is the definition of "Greatest Golfer Ever." If Tiger Woods gets 19, he'll take over the title. If he doesn't, he won't. Otherwise, we can debate whether it's Bobby Jones or Jack or Tiger or any of a half dozen other "greats." Same thing, to me, for QB's.