Breaking: Gronk to Retire

[Steve102]

Agreed on Top 5.

Hondo, Raymond-Jean and Ortiz are locks.

I can't speak to Cooz other than I grew up with him doing color w/ Gil Santos for Celts games on WBZ and never saw him play. Maybe Sam Jones should get some consideration.

Pedro was the greatest pitcher in modern Red Sox history. Forget about the roids with Roger. I loved Clem when he was here. Pedro was better. He wasn't here long but what an impact on the region. Same category as Cam Neely.

Should either one be in the Top 10 over Yaz? Tough call but i'd lean towards Yaz.

Ok, so...

Locks:​

Tom Brady
Bill Russell
Bobby Orr
Larry Bird
Ted Williams
John Havlichek
David Ortiz
Carl Yastrzemski
Ray Bourque

Are we putting Pedro ahead of Hannah? I think so. You don't fill stadiums to watch guard play. That's not a diss on Hannah, merely a comment on the position he played. When Pedro pitched, it was electric. No one ever says that about a guard. I am sure there's an argument to put in Cousy over Pedro. I am not qualified to make it.

The real question is are we putting Gronk on the list ahead of both? Gronk certainly had game changing ability, and was electric when he was at his prime. He stepped up in big moments. Was he as dominant as Pedro? I think there's some parallels. Both were at the very top of their respective games for a short window. Both filled stadiums, both are HoFers, both gave great quotes.

Very similar. I think the only difference is how Gronk has distanced himself from the region, while Pedro has embraced being a Sox Alumnus.

I'll pencil in Pedro for now, and we will see if Gronk returns a happy member of the Patriot family or if he remains a bitter divorcee.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Locks:​

Tom Brady
Bill Russell
Bobby Orr
Larry Bird
Ted Williams
John Havlichek
David Ortiz
Carl Yastrzemski
Ray Bourque

Are we putting Pedro ahead of Hannah? I think so. You don't fill stadiums to watch guard play. That's not a diss on Hannah, merely a comment on the position he played. When Pedro pitched, it was electric. No one ever says that about a guard. I am sure there's an argument to put in Cousy over Pedro. I am not qualified to make it.

The real question is are we putting Gronk on the list ahead of both? Gronk certainly had game changing ability, and was electric when he was at his prime. He stepped up in big moments. Was he as dominant as Pedro? I think there's some parallels. Both were at the very top of their respective games for a short window. Both filled stadiums, both are HoFers, both gave great quotes.

Very similar. I think the only difference is how Gronk has distanced himself from the region, while Pedro has embraced being a Sox Alumnus.

I'll pencil in Pedro for now, and we will see if Gronk returns a happy member of the Patriot family or if he remains a bitter divorcee.

10. Pedro
11. Hog
12. Gronk

 

[Steve102]

10. Pedro
11. Hog
12. Gronk

 

[jimnance]

You can argue the order but my top 5 is:

Tom Brady
Bill Russell
Bobby Orr
Larry Bird
Ted Williams

Big Drop from there to ...

John Havlichek
David Ortiz
Carl Yastrzemski
Bob Cousy
Ray Bourque

Who do you bump? Where's Pedro fit in? John Hannah? Paul Pierce?

I think most of us would have the same top 5.
But after that, it gets tough. Ive seen all those guys and it's just too tough for me to choose. I appreciate em all.
Pedro and Ortiz are probably my next two.
Then Gronk.
Hey we're all just blessed to have had so many greats.
From 2001-2018, Boston pro sports teams won more championships than any other city in the U.S. EVER did in their entire histories in an 18 year span.
Think about that.
NYC, LA and Chicago all have either 7 or 8 pro teams in the Big 4 sports. Twice as many as Boston. But none of em even came close to us.

 

[Pats2000]

It is absolutely unacceptable that Belichick and the patriots have pissed off two of the greatest players to such an extent that they both won’t mention the patriots in retirement posts. Absolutely horrible for the organization.

Thank you Bill

 

[RobertWeathers]

Have Kraft a/o Bill issued any statements yet?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

From 2001-2018, Boston pro sports teams won more championships than any other city in the U.S. EVER did in their entire histories in an 18 year span.
Think about that.
NYC, LA and Chicago all have either 7 or 8 pro teams in the Big 4 sports. Twice as many as Boston. But none of em even came close to us.

Technically the Patriots aren’t from Boston…just sayin’

 

[TinhWoodhead]

According to my brother the top 5 are:

Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Tom Brady
Ted Williams
Bobby Orr

no Harry?

 

[The Gr8est]

Tony Gonzalez was so good, it changed what teams would look for in a TE. Nobody had success until the Chargers found Antonio Gates in 2003 who this board is forgetting about. That guy was a really f***ing good TE.

But Gronk was so dominant during his time, it forced teams to resort to dirty tactics to slow him down like teams did with Shaq in basketball. How many times did we see defenders not even waste their time tackling him straight up, but going straight for the knees instead?

Agreed.

I remembered thinking that many times. Gronk was so dominant that other players cheated and tried to injure him because they could not stop him legitimately.

There was a safety on the Seahawks, I am thinking it was Earl Thomas, who stuck Gronk with a clean legit hard tackle and he stopped him in his tracks in the open field.

I gained a lot of respect for a player on an opposing team. who did it the right way, instead of trying to take out a knee.

 

[The Gr8est]

I was trying to dig up an article from the archives but couldn't find it. I remember the gist of the article though. Ben Coates was saying how much more fun it was to play under Pete Carroll than it was under Bill Parcells.

If you want to make big money as an NFL player but not have to work too hard, then Pete Carroll was your guy.

Winning won't be part of the equation though.

A demanding coach like Parcells or BB tend to drive players to be successful, even if they may chafe under their leadership.

Without BB does anyone think the Pats have their dynasty?

Tom and Gronk going to a loaded Bucs team must have been a dream come true, but the Bucs were loaded because of years of failure which gave them access to the best players coming out of college each year.

The Pats had to keep winning while drafting at the end of each round, at least in the years when the NFL wasn't stealing their draft picks to try and level the playing field.

 

[archstanton543]

I was trying to dig up an article from the archives but couldn't find it. I remember the gist of the article though. Ben Coates was saying how much more fun it was to play under Pete Carroll than it was under Bill Parcells.

If you want to make big money as an NFL player but not have to work too hard, then Pete Carroll was your guy.

Winning won't be part of the equation though.

A demanding coach like Parcells or BB tend to drive players to be successful, even if they may chafe under their leadership.

Without BB does anyone think the Pats have their dynasty?

Tom and Gronk going to a loaded Bucs team must have been a dream come true, but the Bucs were loaded because of years of failure which gave them access to the best players coming out of college each year.

The Pats had to keep winning while drafting at the end of each round, at least in the years when the NFL wasn't stealing their draft picks to try and level the playing field.

Don't forget the rash of bad drafts the Pats had leading up to Brady leaving. We're still dealing with the fallout from that.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I was trying to dig up an article from the archives but couldn't find it. I remember the gist of the article though. Ben Coates was saying how much more fun it was to play under Pete Carroll than it was under Bill Parcells.

If you want to make big money as an NFL player but not have to work too hard, then Pete Carroll was your guy.

Winning won't be part of the equation though.

A demanding coach like Parcells or BB tend to drive players to be successful, even if they may chafe under their leadership.

Without BB does anyone think the Pats have their dynasty?

Tom and Gronk going to a loaded Bucs team must have been a dream come true, but the Bucs were loaded because of years of failure which gave them access to the best players coming out of college each year.

The Pats had to keep winning while drafting at the end of each round, at least in the years when the NFL wasn't stealing their draft picks to try and level the playing field.

With these "fun" culture teams, you'll end up winning 1 super bowl at best. Look at the Seahawks, Eagles, Bucs, etc - they were one and done. If you want to work hard and sacrifice, you'll end up being part of something greater - New England, NYG. No one liked playing for Coughlin but he got the Giants 2 super bowls. Same deal with Belichick. There was a hockey player named Aaron Ward who used to play for the Red Wings. He said "we hated Scotty Bowman's guts for 364 days of the year. On the 365th day we collected our stanley cup ring." That about sums it up.

 

[Zuma]

There was a hockey player named Aaron Ward who used to play for the Red Wings. He said "we hated Scotty Bowman's guts for 364 days of the year. On the 365th day we collected our stanley cup ring."

This.

 

[crawhammer]

Some of this is reposted since my posts are "disappearing"... I'm literally interacting with another member, replying directly to their questions, and my posts get deleted while some of my responses remain quoted in the other member's replies. Ridiculous! How am I supposed to discuss Gronk and games played with New England without mentioning Brady? It's a Gronk thread and everything I'm saying is Gronk related...

Look how badly the Pats struggled without a healthy Gronk in the Super Bowl against the Giants.

The one target Welker didn't pull in cost them the game. That and an 88-yard game-winning TD drive by Eli against our defense that was really weak in 2011.

They couldn’t move the ball a year later against the Ravens in the AFCCG (when Gronk got knocked out of the game).

They had 28 first downs and 428 total yards of offense.

They had no shot against the Broncos in 2013 AFCCG.

Agreed but Gronk's absence wasn't the only reason. Brady's #2 in that game was a completely washed Austin Collie. Their defense also wasn't good in 2013.

They suddenly won a Super Bowl with a healthy Gronk.

With a historic 4th quarter comeback against the Legion of Boom. 4 TDs by 4 different receivers in that Super Bowl.

You really think they’d win that game without Gronk?

Brady was 14-16 for 123 and 2 TDs in that 4th quarter. The biggest play was probably the 3rd-14 completion to Edelman for 21 yards when he got lit up by Chancellor.

Here's a breakdown of those completions:

Vereen = 5 rec, 2 first downs
Edelman = 4 rec, 2 first downs, 1 TD
Gronk = 2 rec, 2 first downs
LaFell = 2 rec, 1 first down
Amendola = 1 rec, 1 TD

Brady pretty much spread it around and had important completions to 5 different receivers. Gronk is probably the hardest receiver to replicate with another player but in this particular game Edelman had the biggest receptions and ultimately it was an exceptional example of ball distribution by the quarterback.

Their offense ran through Gronk.

Not in 2016 when they played as well offensively as they ever had with Brady under center.

My original question was had the Pats not drafted Gronk, does Tom stay or Bill move on from him prior to the 2016 season?

Bill still moved on from Brady too early. Bill also tried to trade Gronk when he was still in his prime. Given how the 2016 season went (and finished), it became impossible for the Patriots to move on from Brady at that time. But again, the 2016 season happened without Gronk making a reception after week 9.

You still aren’t answering the question. If Gronk wasn’t drafted, how long does Brady stay?

Looking back at that draft, Jimmy Graham went a round later than Gronk. Gronk had the better career but he also had Brady his entire career. Graham had some highly productive seasons and his career stats are fairly similar to Gronk's. Had Brady had Graham and Hernandez as opposed to Gronk and Hernandez I think it's possible a lot doesn't change for Brady. Meaning Brady with Graham probably could have stuck around as long as he did in New England. Don't forget either that Brady staying in New England wasn't entirely his decision. The team drafted his supposed replacement in 2014 before his heroics in SB 49 and SB 51 solidified his staying with the team. As it turned out he still left with a lot of elite play left in him.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Some of this is reposted since my posts are "disappearing"... I'm literally interacting with another member, replying directly to their questions, and my posts get deleted while some of my responses remain quoted in the other member's replies. Ridiculous! How am I supposed to discuss Gronk and games played with New England without mentioning Brady? It's a Gronk thread and everything I'm saying is Gronk related...


The one target Welker didn't pull in cost them the game. That and an 88-yard game-winning TD drive by Eli against our defense that was really weak in 2011.


They had 28 first downs and 428 total yards of offense.


Agreed but Gronk's absence wasn't the only reason. Brady's #2 in that game was a completely washed Austin Collie. Their defense also wasn't good in 2013.


With a historic 4th quarter comeback against the Legion of Boom. 4 TDs by 4 different receivers in that Super Bowl.


Brady was 14-16 for 123 and 2 TDs in that 4th quarter. The biggest play was probably the 3rd-14 completion to Edelman for 21 yards when he got lit up by Chancellor.

Here's a breakdown of those completions:

Vereen = 5 rec, 2 first downs
Edelman = 4 rec, 2 first downs, 1 TD
Gronk = 2 rec, 2 first downs
LaFell = 2 rec, 1 first down
Amendola = 1 rec, 1 TD

Brady pretty much spread it around and had important completions to 5 different receivers. Gronk is probably the hardest receiver to replicate with another player but in this particular game Edelman had the biggest receptions and ultimately it was an exceptional example of ball distribution by the quarterback.


Not in 2016 when they played as well offensively as they ever had with Brady under center.


Bill still moved on from Brady too early. Bill also tried to trade Gronk when he was still in his prime. Given how the 2016 season went (and finished), it became impossible for the Patriots to move on from Brady at that time. But again, the 2016 season happened without Gronk making a reception after week 9.


Looking back at that draft, Jimmy Graham went a round later than Gronk. Gronk had the better career but he also had Brady his entire career. Graham had some highly productive seasons and his career stats are fairly similar to Gronk's. Had Brady had Graham and Hernandez as opposed to Gronk and Hernandez I think it's possible a lot doesn't change for Brady. Meaning Brady with Graham probably could have stuck around as long as he did in New England. Don't forget either that Brady staying in New England wasn't entirely his decision. The team drafted his supposed replacement in 2014 before his heroics in SB 49 and SB 51 solidified his staying with the team. As it turned out he still left with a lot of elite play left in him.

Your posts keep disappearing because you are a troll with an agenda and that is to disparage anyone (coach, player, etc) to make Brady look good. Ian created a separate forum for people like you.

 

[archstanton543]

Your posts keep disappearing because you are a troll with an agenda and that is to disparage anyone (coach, player, etc) to make Brady look good. Ian created a separate forum for people like you.

He also created a mute button so you don't have to engage with them.

 

[crawhammer]

Your posts keep disappearing because you are a troll with an agenda and that is to disparage anyone (coach, player, etc) to make Brady look good. Ian created a separate forum for people like you.

Who are you? I highly doubt Ian wants you speaking on his behalf. He can weight in directly here if he wants but to my understanding (by way of private conversation) he does not have a problem with my posts... at least not to any extent that he would agree with them being deleted.

A troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community. I'm doing 0% of that.

Also, Brady doesn't need anyone trying to make him "look good." I think it's pretty well established that he's the greatest player in the history of the NFL (if not all of professional sports).

 

[SHOWTIME15]

He also created a mute button so you don't have to engage with them.

That's true, but he's asking why the mods keep deleting his posts. I'm just letting him know why.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Who are you? I highly doubt Ian wants you speaking on his behalf. He can weight in directly here if he wants but to my understanding (by way of private conversation) he does not have a problem with my posts... at least not to any extent that he would agree with them being deleted.

A troll is a person who posts inflammatory, insincere, digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community. I'm doing 0% of that.

Also, Brady doesn't need anyone trying to make him "look good." I think it's pretty well established that he's the greatest player in the history of the NFL (if not all of professional sports).

Ian is not the only one who has the capability of deleting posts on this forum. On page 1 of this thread, Ashley kindly asked us to keep the topic about Gronk. Bringing up Brady (like you always do) is trolling and you are absolutely doing that.

 

[archstanton543]

Ian is not the only one who has the capability of deleting posts on this forum. On page 1 of this thread, Ashley kindly asked us to keep the topic about Gronk. Bringing up Brady (like you always do) is trolling and you are absolutely doing that.

There's one guy who threw Gronk passes his entire career. It would be impossible to talk about Gronk without mentioning Brady. It's an unreasonable request given the circumstances.