Brady vs Belichick: The Verdict

[Actual Pats Fan]

"certain posters"

Right now I'm not certain if I'm a 'certain poster' or not.

Or if I want to be.

...I've got a choice?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

What that view fails to consider is it’s Brady AFTER years of being with Bill. Could rookie Brady have won that SB in Tampa? Or even 2nd, 3rd year Brady? I would argue no. Brady didn’t become that caliber player Tom F’n MVP Brady until 2007, seven years into his career. Who got him there? Yes a great deal of the credit deservedly goes to Tom himself for his tireless work ethic and manic preparation but Belichick was the guy meeting with him every week, going over game plans and pointing things out. Brady himself has said no other coach I want to play for and I never would have become the player I am without him.

I’ll admit being Team Bill is rough to argue with the way the last 4 years of his tenure went, (I expected them to at least continue being a 10-6ish playoff team) but that doesn’t take away 20 years of having championship caliber rosters built and coached up. 20 years of other teams playing scared and making dumb mistakes that were taken advantage of for wins. Yes at the end when Bill had lost his fast ball, been betrayed by those closest to him, and players stopped relating to him it’s a much easier point to debate, Brady is way more valuable the Bill. Make that a 50 year old Belichick and the debate is far more interesting. Certainly not the clear cut no arguement knockout you are making it to be.

Not that cut and dry.

BB had Bradys successor in Jimmy G, but Kraft forced BB to trade him away. In 2021, Kraft took draft power from BB and somebody picked Alabama sensation Corky Mac Jones. When BB wanted Corky gone in 2022, Kraft said no way Jose.

Lets see what happens in NC and when BB returns to the NFL.

As I've said before, Belichick simply keeps Zappe in there - that is, does NOT start Jones against the Bears or anyone else - and that team is at least in the playoffs, Bill is nipping on Shula's heels, and the mess of the last two years doesn't happen.

Bailey isn't necessarily the GOAT of this generation, but the team was clicking and on a roll. The media stupidity about Jones was just like it was in '01 with Bledsoe, I was just surprised and disappointed when Belichick put him back in.

I was not surprised at all to see the season go in the tank.

 

[Ian]

What that view fails to consider is it’s Brady AFTER years of being with Bill. Could rookie Brady have won that SB in Tampa? Or even 2nd, 3rd year Brady? I would argue no. Brady didn’t become that caliber player Tom F’n MVP Brady until 2007, seven years into his career. Who got him there? Yes a great deal of the credit deservedly goes to Tom himself for his tireless work ethic and manic preparation but Belichick was the guy meeting with him every week, going over game plans and pointing things out. Brady himself has said no other coach I want to play for and I never would have become the player I am without him.

I’ll admit being Team Bill is rough to argue with the way the last 4 years of his tenure went, (I expected them to at least continue being a 10-6ish playoff team) but that doesn’t take away 20 years of having championship caliber rosters built and coached up. 20 years of other teams playing scared and making dumb mistakes that were taken advantage of for wins. Yes at the end when Bill had lost his fast ball, been betrayed by those closest to him, and players stopped relating to him it’s a much easier point to debate, Brady is way more valuable the Bill. Make that a 50 year old Belichick and the debate is far more interesting. Certainly not the clear cut no arguement knockout you are making it to be.

I still come back to after watching bad coaching in January each year and then seeing it here during the regular season this year, I don't know if Brady could have overcome some of what he dealt with under lesser coaches. Does he still have an incredible career and win a couple rings? Sure, it's possible. Manning managed to win one under Dungy, who certainly wasn't at Belichick's level. But so many coaches do so many stupid things that we laughed at other people for during those years...it's crazy.

Brady's an amazing player, but even at his best he couldn't overcome bad decisions, even here (the Philadelphia SB being that example). I don't known how he could have maintained it after what probably would have been a lot of years coming up short if he played for some of these other guys. Might have also made him think twice about playing into his 40s.

 

[chasa]

As I've said before, Belichick simply keeps Zappe in there - that is, does NOT start Jones against the Bears or anyone else - and that team is at least in the playoffs, Bill is nipping on Shula's heels, and the mess of the last two years doesn't happen.

Bailey isn't necessarily the GOAT of this generation, but the team was clicking and on a roll. The media stupidity about Jones was just like it was in '01 with Bledsoe, I was just surprised and disappointed when Belichick put him back in.

I was not surprised at all to see the season go in the tank.

by that point the league had zappe figured out. The dudes a Bum.

Bill made some really horrendous calls down the stretch, and it bit the team in the ass.

I so bummed watching our former tackles and guards winning playoff games, and meanwhile we have literally garbage trying to pass protect.

 

[Fuzz]

Don't shoot the messenger, but the first episode is below:

 

[Steve102]

Not that cut and dry.

BB had Bradys successor in Jimmy G, but Kraft forced BB to trade him away. In 2021, Kraft took draft power from BB and somebody picked Alabama sensation Corky Mac Jones. When BB wanted Corky gone in 2022, Kraft said no way Jose.

Lets see what happens in NC and when BB returns to the NFL.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

I still come back to after watching bad coaching in January each year and then seeing it here during the regular season this year, I don't know if Brady could have overcome some of what he dealt with under lesser coaches. Does he still have an incredible career and win a couple rings? Sure, it's possible. Manning managed to win one under Dungy, who certainly wasn't at Belichick's level. But so many coaches do so many stupid things that we laughed at other people for during those years...it's crazy.

Brady's an amazing player, but even at his best he couldn't overcome bad decisions, even here (the Philadelphia SB being that example). I don't known how he could have maintained it after what probably would have been a lot of years coming up short if he played for some of these other guys. Might have also made him think twice about playing into his 40s.

Belichick used to say that coaches lose games, players win them. I think that’s an apt approach here.

For the most part, Belichick was great at preventing the team from losing the game via poor game plans, poor adjustments, expert teaching, and proper player deployment. That allowed Brady to go out and win the game.

Brady can’t win SB 49 if Browner and Butler don’t know what’s coming. Brady can’t win SB 51 if Belichick stubbornly stuck with LaGarrett Blount because that’s what the game plan called for. Brady can’t win SB 36 if his head coach decides to kneel out playing for OT and the Rams win the coin flip.

 

[h0c2000]

Debate Brady vs Belichick?

With Brady leading his new team into the postseason, his old team is floundering pathetically and will miss the postseason for only the second time in the past 18 seasons. The two seasons missing the postseason, 2008 and 2020, no Brady. The main reason the Patriots will not make the postseason...

www.patsfans.com

 

[Vindicate]

The way I think about it is:

Bill Belichick is arguably the greatest coach ever

Tom Brady is the unanimous greatest quarterback in the history of the sport.

Neither of them would see the success they did without one another. That being said, Brady transcended the sport and did what few could even imagine - quite literally. No one bothered to imagine a 40+ year old QB winning multiple SB's. So yes, Brady's talents immediately translate to effect, much faster than Belichick.

That being said, if Belichick could've fielded a playoff bound, potentially even SB approaching team in just 2-3 years after a complete rebirth, that'd be in-****ing-sane and compete with Brady-insaneness.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Let's discuss the alternate universe.

Where does Brady land hand Bill decided not to draft Brady? I think he ends up a UDFA and possibly goes to 49ers, Chargers or Raiders. Raiders would've initially been a good spot as Gannon was aging and Gruden was one of the top offensive coaches. However, Gruden ended up leaving because of Ownership issues which wouldn't have been good for Tom.

49ers would've been his first choice, but I he would've been lucky to make the team as they drafted Carmazzi and Rattay with Garcia as the starter. That would've been tough to overcome.

He would've had a good chance making the Chargers team beating out Moses Moreno. Do they sign Doug Flutie in 2001 and draft Drew Brees? If they did, it would've created another roadblock for Tom to overcome.

Bill on the other hand, would've been fired after the 2001 season as they wouldn't have made the playoffs with Bledsoe even if he were healthy.

Moral of the story is that they needed each other.

 

[Ian]

by that point the league had zappe figured out. The dudes a Bum.

Bill made some really horrendous calls down the stretch, and it bit the team in the ass.

I so bummed watching our former tackles and guards winning playoff games, and meanwhile we have literally garbage trying to pass protect.

I couldn't get over how weak Zappe's arm looked in that Cleveland game. It was unreal, and it's unfortunate because that's a team in dire need of a QB where it would have been fun to see them kick Watson to the curb and for him to do well.

 

[signbabybrady]

Let's discuss the alternate universe.

Where does Brady land hand Bill decided not to draft Brady? I think he ends up a UDFA and possibly goes to 49ers, Chargers or Raiders. Raiders would've initially been a good spot as Gannon was aging and Gruden was one of the top offensive coaches. However, Gruden ended up leaving because of Ownership issues which wouldn't have been good for Tom.

49ers would've been his first choice, but I he would've been lucky to make the team as they drafted Carmazzi and Rattay with Garcia as the starter. That would've been tough to overcome.

He would've had a good chance making the Chargers team beating out Moses Moreno. Do they sign Doug Flutie in 2001 and draft Drew Brees? If they did, it would've created another roadblock for Tom to overcome.

Bill on the other hand, would've been fired after the 2001 season as they wouldn't have made the playoffs with Bledsoe even if he were healthy.

Moral of the story is that they needed each other.

Brady finds a way some how. Maybe it's some story like Kurt Warner or something but he'd eventually get a chance.

If Brady's not there but Drew still gets hurt then Bill wouldn't get fired at the end of 01 because there would have been no controversy and the injury probably buys him one more year. We now know the defense that he built was great and we also know that Drew went to Buffalo and passed for 4k. Those two things could have converged into a SB appearance for Drew or just converged into enough success that he eventually finds someone else to replace him with. Just for continuity let's throw Tony Romo out there.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Brady finds a way some how. Maybe it's some story like Kurt Warner or something but he'd eventually get a chance.

I agree he probably bounces around the league.

If Brady's not there but Drew still gets hurt then Bill wouldn't get fired at the end of 01 because there would have been no controversy and the injury probably buys him one more year. We now know the defense that he built was great and we also know that Drew went to Buffalo and passed for 4k. Those two things could have converged into a SB or just converged into enough success that he eventually finds someone else to replace him with.

Drew was not a fit for the type of offense the Pats had. He needed big play guys like Glenn and Jefferson and an enforcer like Coates. The OL wasn't built for him to go for the big play which he liked doing. The running game was better, but not as good when Martin was here. Bledsoe was passing a lot from under C which he clearly was uncomfortable doing. He would've struggled badly in 2001. He had a one year resurgence in Buffalo because he had Travis Henry, Eric Moulds and Peerless Price at his disposable.

Brady as the starter in 2001 went 7-0 against teams under .500 where most of their wins came from. He went 2-3 against teams .500 and above. On the other hand, Bledsoe lost his first game of the season to a team who eventually went 6-10.

Bill was brought in to get this team back to their late 90's days and be a Super Bowl contender. As much as I loved Bledsoe, they would've missed the playoffs with him had he started every game.

 

[signbabybrady]

I agree he probably bounces around the league.

Drew was not a fit for the type of offense the Pats had. He needed big play guys like Glenn and Jefferson and an enforcer like Coates. The OL wasn't built for him to go for the big play which he liked doing. The running game was better, but not as good when Martin was here. Bledsoe was passing a lot from under C which he clearly was uncomfortable doing. He would've struggled badly in 2001. He had a one year resurgence in Buffalo because he had Travis Henry, Eric Moulds and Peerless Price at his disposable.

Brady as the starter in 2001 went 7-0 against teams under .500 where most of their wins came from. He went 2-3 against teams .500 and above. On the other hand, Bledsoe lost his first game of the season to a team who eventually went 6-10.

Bill was brought in to get this team back to their late 90's days and be a Super Bowl contender. As much as I loved Bledsoe, they would've missed the playoffs with him had he started every game.

Yeah if Drew doesn't get hurt it probably continues to get ugly. And that's probably it. And I'm not really trying to get into a Drew debate. I just don't think it should be ignored when this conversation is had how good the Patriots D was. That D could have done some damage even without the GOAT.

I could even invision something like Tampa where Dungy built the D and the next coach benefits from it.

 

[Vindicate]

Also, I think a video like this does give perspective on just how important Belichick can be, by example of SB53 and the blueprint he created to beat the Rams (the video goes into a little detail at the end how the league immediately adopted his gameplan against the Rams in the 2019 season). He's insanely important.

 

[Biffins]

It's funny to me how people have these debates and act like Brady was a static caliber of player for the whole 2 decades. Part of what made him such a special player was the way he tirelessly worked to reach the levels he did. He won 3 super bowls before he ever made an all pro team. Pretending he was the same caliber of player in 2018 as he was in 2001 is an insult to the work he put in to improve.

The Pats won 3 in 4 super bowls from 2001 to 2004. That's been matched in history and there were teams who did it more dominantly. Then they won 3 in 5 years later on, which was also matched in history (and again by KC just recently). What wasn't matched was the 2 decades of sustained dominance and annual Championship game appearances. Brady wasn't good enough at the start of his career to carry teams and he doesn't win those rings to pad his legacy without a GOAT coach/GM in BB. By the end of his career though, his GOATness was carrying some of BB's outdated coaching and scouting methods to a couple extra years of shelf life.

Players are always more important than coaches. If you can only take one you take Brady, easily. Although you do have to acknowledge the role good coaching played in his development too. But still, it's easy Brady if you have to divide up a pie of credit. But without both you don't get the 2 decades straight of success that is their all time differentiating factor in NFL dynasties.

Nice. How come BB couldn't do the same for other QBs. Or other players.

How come a cheerleading coach like Tomlin has ZERO seasons worse than 8 wins in his 17 years as HC with a rotating cast of QBs, but BB had 7 such seasons in his 10 seasons as HC without Brady (including 2 of his last 4 Pats seasons)? How come BB didn't do his coaching magic on those 10 rosters to atleast 8 wins..............

 

[RobertWeathers]

Damn. I thought this debate was dead.

 

[signbabybrady]

Nice. How come BB couldn't do the same for other QBs. Or other players.

How come a cheerleading coach like Tomlin has ZERO seasons worse than 8 wins in his 17 years as HC with a rotating cast of QBs, but BB had 7 such seasons in his 10 seasons as HC without Brady (including 2 of his last 4 Pats seasons)? How come BB didn't do his coaching magic on those 10 rosters to atleast 8 wins..............

So just to be clear you think Tomlin is a better coach than Belichick?

 

[Ray Ray 717]

Not that cut and dry.

BB had Bradys successor in Jimmy G, but Kraft forced BB to trade him away. In 2021, Kraft took draft power from BB and somebody picked Alabama sensation Corky Mac Jones. When BB wanted Corky gone in 2022, Kraft said no way Jose.

Lets see what happens in NC and when BB returns to the NFL.

Or BB could have been smart and drafted Lamar Jackson in 2018 when we held TWO first round draft picks and a 41 years old disgruntled QB on a 1 year contract.

Instead he drafted a fat mediocre guard and a backup college RB

 

[1960Pats]

Belichick used to say that coaches lose games, players win them. I think that’s an apt approach here.

For the most part, Belichick was great at preventing the team from losing the game via poor game plans, poor adjustments, expert teaching, and proper player deployment. That allowed Brady to go out and win the game.

Brady can’t win SB 49 if Browner and Butler don’t know what’s coming. Brady can’t win SB 51 if Belichick stubbornly stuck with LaGarrett Blount because that’s what the game plan called for. Brady can’t win SB 36 if his head coach decides to kneel out playing for OT and the Rams win the coin flip.

I've come around a bit on the importance of coaches but I've always supported Bill's ability to make less in-game mistakes in a season than many others did in a game. He was the best at that.

Maybe another way to describe it is that Bill could get his team in the best position to win but the players had to get the team over the finish line.

It's not Brady vs Belichick. It's Brady and Belichick.