BOB 'Completely Reworking' Pats Offense

[Sicilian]

Bill did NOT try the MP/JJ experiment and THEN hired BOB. Bill O'Brien was ALWAYS going to be the OC in 2023. What happened in 2022 was merely a holding action that simply didn't work out. Blame Bill for ALL the offensive failures of last year. He deserves it. He hoped that MP/JJ could adequately fill that gap with a relatively competent result. DIDN'T happen!

And he moved on as we all should at this point. Do you think that over the last 20 odd years he hasn't tried and failed at other things that....didn't work out. There were probably DOZENS of them....albeit none as public and obvious as this one. One of the keys to his longevity and success over the years was he has ALWAYS viewed each year as a COMPLETELY separate entity.

BTW- Maybe its time we took a moment to realize that as ****ed up and disappointing as it seemed to us, it wasn't like this was like some of the 2-14 type teams we used to see every couple of years PRIOR to Bill. This was a team that was one win away from a playoff berth. The offense sucked, but there were about 10 other teams whose offenses were WORSE (based on what site you went to) in fact they came in at 16th in scoring (which is ultimately what's important on offense. So this wasn't exactly the worst offense in NFL history, like so many seem to think based on their posts.

What it actually was a clear disappointment based on our EXPECTATIONS that were based on what we saw in 2021. A year we had the best of the 5 rookie QB's in the draft....by far. And had an 800 yd WR who had only played a third of the offensive snap (Bourne) We had a decent OL which looked pretty good for a while with Wynn at LT and Brown at right. I think it was Wynn's best season as a Patriot and not surprisingly the only year he suited up all 16 game (15 starts). Add the expected second year jump from our rookie QB who threw for around 3800yd his rookie season throwing to a real patchwork group of WR's.

Maybe almost a WORSE decision, imho, as the one to have the MP/JJ experiment, was switching Wynn and Brown. I can understand the logic behind it, but the end result was a disaster. Wynn didn't work out at all and then got hurt....again. And Brown, who wasn't bad, didn't seem to have as good as year as the year before with WAY to many penalties. Bourne for some reason, never became the impact player I expected, and really ended up a non-factor. Andrews missing 3 games in the middle of the season.

NO ONE expected a regression from Mac, a disappearance of Bourne, Smith, and to some effect Henry, a middling often injured OL, where only the RB's seemed to have consistent success. But that is what we got. We THINK we know the reasons since we've discussed them ad nauseum for the better part of the last FIVE months

I guess this was a short point made long by me (as usual) to say THIS. The time to ***** and moan about the bad things that happened LAST year is over. This is really a new slate. The 2023 team has yet to come into focus and won't for a long while. The next several months SHOULD be spent talking about new additions, comparing ourselves to other teams. Deciding who won the "woodie johnson trophy" for winning the paper off season. (also known as "the Joker".) That's always good fun passing the time, etc. AND the draft. I really want to know that if you have Joey Porter, JSN and Bryce Bresee sitting there at 14 what do you do. Where do you stand on the DT from Pittsburgh. etc, etc,

But this will be the last time, I'm going to bother to post about LAST season's issues and problems. Troll all you want. I'm done.

Whoa man, wasn't trying to troll at all. Some may disagree but I don't think that's ever been my style. I'm just gonna let this one go after this, but I think you may have read an implication in my post that was not intended.

 

[n1997y]

That's what has bothered me the most about the theory that BOB was scheduled to come here in 2023 and that Patricia/Judge were a holding action. It was a tremendous risk to ****** the development of your prize second year quarterback, who was so promising as a rookie, with a novice offensive coordinator and a novice quarterback coach. I could see it, maybe, with a veteran QB, but with a quarterback still learning the ropes. it was foolhardy.

You‘re right. It’s theory not fact. You make very good points about why it’s unlikely that the theory is true. But then you sound like you couldn’t even convince yourself. What’s with that?

 

[All3Phases]

That's what has bothered me the most about the theory that BOB was scheduled to come here in 2023 and that Patricia/Judge were a holding action. It was a tremendous risk to ****** the development of your prize second year quarterback, who was so promising as a rookie, with a novice offensive coordinator and a novice quarterback coach. I could see it, maybe, with a veteran QB, but with a quarterback still learning the ropes. it was foolhardy.

Either way you cut it, you’d have to admit BB didn’t do what’s best for the team, and that is literally all he says he does. So it’s hard to believe

 

[NormZauchin]

You‘re right. It’s theory not fact. You make very good points about why it’s unlikely that the theory is true. But then you sound like you couldn’t even convince yourself. What’s with that?

I'm retired, but in the past, I worked in statistics, probability, and forecasting. Very few things are absolutely certain, unless you are dealing with classical physics.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Nope. That narrative makes no sense. BoB was never the plan all along. It makes no logical sense. The plan was for Matt/Judge to succeed and be the OC/QB Coach going forward. Then when that blew up, BB had to go and get BoB. If BB wanted BoB last year, he could have gone and got him.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!

As usual the BB loyalists try to revise history to make him look omniscient. Fact is that BB, in his arrogance, thought he could turn a failed special teams coach and a defensive coach into the QB coach and offensive playcaller for the 2022 season. Because of how spectacularly that experiment failed, even BB was forced to admit his mistake, fire Patricia, and hire BOB. Any other interpretation of events is just more SPIN from the 'koolaid sipping' BB loyalist contingent.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Honestly, who wouldn’t? It’s the perfect situation for any OC. There is no downside. If you can turn the offense and Mac around, you would be seen as the next best thing in the league and if you can’t it would be because Mac can’t play and the offense lack talent.

How about you turn it down because you're not qualified for the job and have no chance of making it work?

Patricia not only FAILED at running the Patriots offense in 2022, but he did such a HORRIBLE job he's gonna have trouble finding new work in the future outside of BB feeling pity on him and rehiring a couple years down the road so he doesn't have to bag groceries anymore.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Bill did NOT try the MP/JJ experiment and THEN hired BOB. Bill O'Brien was ALWAYS going to be the OC in 2023.

There's a River in Egypt called De-Nile.

 

[Ian]

Correct. We're not allowed to have opinions or speculate on the future, because this is not a web forum for open football discussion anymore. Aparently it's only the rarefied realm for "koolaid" sippers who completely agree with BB, no matter how many mistakes he makes as a GM.

That's 1000% not accurate. What I've said repeatedly is I have zero issue with criticism. What I have asked, however, is for people to at least offer up a constructive criticism with their view on how the team should fix whatever it is they're criticizing.

Saying "this guy sucks," or "get rid of this guy," etc. can't lead to "I don't care, I just hate this guy - he sucks," when people ask what it is they think should be done instead.

That's essentially a thread-killer since all it does is incite misery, leaving us with nothing to talk about. I'm fine with criticism. But at the same time, I am asking for people to at least make an effort to come up with their own solution and make their opinion something that can at least be talked about. Otherwise, it becomes just a miserable group of posts to sift through, and that's not fun for anyone. People can deal with back-and-forth with thoughts, debates, etc. The rest is just noise.

 

[Ian]

That's what has bothered me the most about the theory that BOB was scheduled to come here in 2023 and that Patricia/Judge were a holding action. It was a tremendous risk to ****** the development of your prize second year quarterback, who was so promising as a rookie, with a novice offensive coordinator and a novice quarterback coach. I could see it, maybe, with a veteran QB, but with a quarterback still learning the ropes. it was foolhardy.

I'm also guilty of that working out. I sort of believed Mac was intelligent enough to potentially overcome any shortcomings Patricia might have had. At the same time, I also underestimated any resistance on Jones's part being seemingly shot down internally and obviously leading to the blow ups we saw on the field, followed by whatever other conversations or clashes he may have had with Belichick. Just an absolute mess.

 

[Ian]

How about you turn it down because you're not qualified for the job and have no chance of making it work?

Patricia not only FAILED at running the Patriots offense in 2022, but he did such a HORRIBLE job he's gonna have trouble finding new work in the future outside of BB feeling pity on him and rehiring a couple years down the road so he doesn't have to bag groceries anymore.

I agree, and that's probably the worst outcome of this for him. He had sort of rehabilitated his image to a certain extent while working in the front office and assisting in practice, or whatever it was he was doing after he had come back prior to this past season. I think most people in here didn't even have much of an issue with him since coming back, honestly, up until what happened last season. Now, obviously it feels like either he or Belichick decided he wouldn't be back, with Matt taking multiple interviews this offseason that clearly didn't go anywhere.

Definitely not a great situation and I do agree with Robert Kraft that he was put in a bad spot. Although based on the Herald report earlier this offseason, it sounds like he's not exactly blame-free when it comes to some of the internal issues when it came to the players.

 

[NormZauchin]

I'm also guilty of that working out. I sort of believed Mac was intelligent enough to potentially overcome any shortcomings Patricia might have had. At the same time, I also underestimated any resistance on Jones's part being seemingly shot down internally and obviously leading to the blow ups we saw on the field, followed by whatever other conversations or clashes he may have had with Belichick. Just an absolute mess.

There are so many aspects to what happened last season about which we only have sketchy information, at best. I'll just list some that come to mind.
First, personalities. Did Mac and Patricia get along? Did Mac and Judge get along? If they didn't, what was the degree of acrimony?
Was Mac's problem with the offense more the play calling, or the general philosophy, or the inability to adapt during the game? Or all three?
Did he take his issues to Patricia and Judge? If he did, how was what he said received? What was the role of Belichick?
Who did Mac contact when he went outside the organization? One of his old college coaches, or somebody else? How many times did this happen? Did he then try to implement what advice he was given if, in fact, he was given advice?
Do all head coaches have rules like Belichick regarding seeking advice outside the organization? If they do, do they regard a breach of the rule as seriously as Belichick apparently does.
To what degree were Mac teammates aware of these issues and what was the response, if any?
To what degree was Kraft aware of these issues and what was his response?

 

[patfanken]

Nope. That narrative makes no sense. BoB was never the plan all along. It makes no logical sense. The plan was for Matt/Judge to succeed and be the OC/QB Coach going forward. Then when that blew up, BB had to go and get BoB. If BB wanted BoB last year, he could have gone and got him.

Whoa man, wasn't trying to troll at all. Some may disagree but I don't think that's ever been my style. I'm just gonna let this one go after this, but I think you may have read an implication in my post that was not intended.

sorry man, I didn't mean for YOU think what you wrote was trolling at all. I was reacting to your point which was the MP choice was made and THEN BOB was hired as if, if the offense had been better, they would have been kept on and BOB wouldn't have been hired. Though Bill and I haven't talked for a while (sarcasm), everything that transpired just looked too much like it was a temporary gig until BOB got free of his contract with Alabama.

Then I kind of got into a rant that had little to do with YOUR post. And the troll comment at the end was meant for others who I knew would likely come back at me.......and they didn't disappoint .

You are a good poster, buddy BTW feel free to see it differently

 

[RIpats88]

I would hope he would re-work it and not use whatever garbage Patricia/Judge put on the field. And lets be honest, taking the patriots offense and adding in what BOB learned at Alabama, and plays that work for Mac Jones is only what any good coach should do. Not here's a new offense make it work and if our garbage offense doesn't its the players fault.

but can we stop this dumb narrative that Bill hired patricia/Judge as placeholders to wait for O'brien. you are telling me bill is such a genious he had patricia/Judge install a BRAND NEW OFFENSE, so he could wait for O'Brien only for O'brien to install ANOTHER BRAND NEW OFFENSE. because only a genius has their young QB learn 3 new offenses in 3 seasons. if Bill intedned for Patrica/Judge to be placeholders, why install a brand new offense? and why throw it out the next year to install another new one?

its just an excuse for Bill and his horrendous decision to hire patricia/Judge. and once again we used to laugh at teams like the Jets for having young QB's learn 3 new offenses in 3 years and make these kind of decisions. Yet if its Bill its genius.

 

[RIpats88]

The pats have had the same offense for 20 years with 4 different coordinators, Brady leaves, then all of the sudden they need to change it. So yeah, its because of the QB.

Mac was pretty much fine in the offense in 2021. This was more Bill Belichecks obsession with the shanahan offense and somehow believing that patricia/Judge could run it....because ya know they are the offensive minds of shanahan. but instead they installed an offensive playbook that looked more like a coloring book and had no idea how to call plays except for "ask madden"

All O'Brien is doing is installing back his patriots offense but adding what he did at Alabama, and plays that mac is comfortable with. Thats what ANY good OC should do who comes in.

 

[TomPatriot]

, and vice versa. Mac was pretty much fine in the offense in 2021. This was more Bill Belichecks obsession with the shanahan offense and somehow believing that patricia/Judge could run it....because ya know they are the offensive minds of shanahan. but instead they installed an offensive playbook that looked more like a coloring book and had no idea how to call plays except for "ask madden"

All O'Brien is doing is installing back his patriots offense but adding what he did at Alabama, and plays that mac is comfortable with. Thats what ANY good OC should do who comes in.

Plus, he’s installing all this with a QB BOB knows and listens to and vice versa. Imagine that.

 

[sb1]

 

[Tunescribe]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!

As usual the BB loyalists try to revise history to make him look omniscient. Fact is that BB, in his arrogance, thought he could turn a failed special teams coach and a defensive coach into the QB coach and offensive playcaller for the 2022 season. Because of how spectacularly that experiment failed, even BB was forced to admit his mistake, fire Patricia, and hire BOB. Any other interpretation of events is just more SPIN from the 'koolaid sipping' BB loyalist contingent.

The celebratory glee in your posts eviscerating BB's failure on the Patricia/Judge front is just as pathetic as the "Kool-Aid BB loyalist contingent" you so eagerly condemn.

It was a failure, obviously, and a true head scratcher coming from a hall of fame coach. But there might be another explanation short of arrogance or being a "delusional apologist" that's plausible enough to ponder: BB simply MIGHT have had a winning 2022 OC succession plan in place with someone else that fell through at the last moment leaving Patricia/Judge as his fallback option. That someone else very well could have been BOB one year earlier, but we never will know. @patfanken could be "half-right" in this respect.

Whoever was to take over for McDaniels had to be in place very early. And once those wheels were in motion with Patricia/Judge, there was no wholesale adjusting anyone -- including BB -- could do post-training camp to salvage that offense. Of course, the bottom line is BB deserves blame for how things turned out.

I'm also guilty of that working out. I sort of believed Mac was intelligent enough to potentially overcome any shortcomings Patricia might have had.

Even the world's best stunt driver wouldn't survive an obstacle course in a Ford Pinto.

 

[Rob0729]

Bill did NOT try the MP/JJ experiment and THEN hired BOB. Bill O'Brien was ALWAYS going to be the OC in 2023. What happened in 2022 was merely a holding action that simply didn't work out. Blame Bill for ALL the offensive failures of last year. He deserves it. He hoped that MP/JJ could adequately fill that gap with a relatively competent result. DIDN'T happen!

And he moved on as we all should at this point. Do you think that over the last 20 odd years he hasn't tried and failed at other things that....didn't work out. There were probably DOZENS of them....albeit none as public and obvious as this one. One of the keys to his longevity and success over the years was he has ALWAYS viewed each year as a COMPLETELY separate entity.

BTW- Maybe its time we took a moment to realize that as ****ed up and disappointing as it seemed to us, it wasn't like this was like some of the 2-14 type teams we used to see every couple of years PRIOR to Bill. This was a team that was one win away from a playoff berth. The offense sucked, but there were about 10 other teams whose offenses were WORSE (based on what site you went to) in fact they came in at 16th in scoring (which is ultimately what's important on offense. So this wasn't exactly the worst offense in NFL history, like so many seem to think based on their posts.

What it actually was a clear disappointment based on our EXPECTATIONS that were based on what we saw in 2021. A year we had the best of the 5 rookie QB's in the draft....by far. And had an 800 yd WR who had only played a third of the offensive snap (Bourne) We had a decent OL which looked pretty good for a while with Wynn at LT and Brown at right. I think it was Wynn's best season as a Patriot and not surprisingly the only year he suited up all 16 game (15 starts). Add the expected second year jump from our rookie QB who threw for around 3800yd his rookie season throwing to a real patchwork group of WR's.

Maybe almost a WORSE decision, imho, as the one to have the MP/JJ experiment, was switching Wynn and Brown. I can understand the logic behind it, but the end result was a disaster. Wynn didn't work out at all and then got hurt....again. And Brown, who wasn't bad, didn't seem to have as good as year as the year before with WAY to many penalties. Bourne for some reason, never became the impact player I expected, and really ended up a non-factor. Andrews missing 3 games in the middle of the season.

NO ONE expected a regression from Mac, a disappearance of Bourne, Smith, and to some effect Henry, a middling often injured OL, where only the RB's seemed to have consistent success. But that is what we got. We THINK we know the reasons since we've discussed them ad nauseum for the better part of the last FIVE months

I guess this was a short point made long by me (as usual) to say THIS. The time to ***** and moan about the bad things that happened LAST year is over. This is really a new slate. The 2023 team has yet to come into focus and won't for a long while. The next several months SHOULD be spent talking about new additions, comparing ourselves to other teams. Deciding who won the "woodie johnson trophy" for winning the paper off season. (also known as "the Joker".) That's always good fun passing the time, etc. AND the draft. I really want to know that if you have Joey Porter, JSN and Bryce Bresee sitting there at 14 what do you do. Where do you stand on the DT from Pittsburgh. etc, etc,

But this will be the last time, I'm going to bother to post about LAST season's issues and problems. Troll all you want. I'm done.

Ken, I usually agree with you, but I think you are dead wrong. I think the plan for Patricia was always to make him the permanent OC. It makes no sense for them to use him and Judge as place holders for O'Brien and then complete change the offense to something that O'Brien was never going to use.

If they were really looking for an one year place holder for O'Brien, they would have promoted Nick Caley to OC. The guy has eleven years of offensive coaching experience and has been in the Patriots system on offense since 2015. He would have been the perfect one year place holder because he knows the offense and could have been a seamless transition from McDaniels without radical changes to the offense. And his contract was up at the end of last season. So he could have done his year and moved on with no drama.

I believe the reports that Belichick was concerned about giving someone the job and being successful and bolting quickly only to have to be forced to find another OC. Now I don't think he decided to go with Patricia because he knew he would suck. I think he underestimated how hard it is to be an OC, but knew Patricia was loyal and wouldn't bolt quickly after one successful season.

 

[Ross12]

 

[patfanken]

Ken, I usually agree with you, but I think you are dead wrong. I think the plan for Patricia was always to make him the permanent OC. It makes no sense for them to use him and Judge as place holders for O'Brien and then complete change the offense to something that O'Brien was never going to use.

Well clearly we disagree, and here's where I think you are are off track. It's the view that the Pats had a radically NEW offensive system compared to past years and that fact PROVES that MP/JJ were intended to be here to stay. I KNOW that the language remained the same, just like it has the last 24 years. I know I saw a lot of very familiar plays and route combinations. Was it "different", sure it was, but offenses change and evolve EVERY year, even under a vet OC. I don't see how this proves he was installed as a long term fix.

If they were really looking for an one year place holder for O'Brien, they would have promoted Nick Caley to OC. The guy has eleven years of offensive coaching experience and has been in the Patriots system on offense since 2015. He would have been the perfect one year place holder because he knows the offense and could have been a seamless transition from McDaniels without radical changes to the offense. And his contract was up at the end of last season. So he could have done his year and moved on with no drama.

I think the very fact that they DIDN'T go with Nick Calley is one of the reasons I felt that MP was a place holder. The "reports" that he turned down a chance to be the play caller, shows that HE knew that it was a one year gig and he wouldn't be likely to be calling the plays in 2023. Calley has ambitions for higher positions. He wasn't going to get it here and he left for a parallel position. But I don't disagree. Calley could have been a better one year replacement. But we don't know if he would have accepted it as a one year gig. His not wanting to be the play caller (if that report was true) makes me believe that he wouldn't have taken the job. He knew that BOB was on the way.

I believe the reports that Belichick was concerned about giving someone the job and being successful and bolting quickly only to have to be forced to find another OC. Now I don't think he decided to go with Patricia because he knew he would suck. I think he underestimated how hard it is to be an OC, but knew Patricia was loyal and wouldn't bolt quickly after one successful season.

I was among those who felt that with all the coaching experience MP had, the knowledge of the detailed offensive concepts he had to know to stop them, PLUS the fact he knew what it took to be a coordinator I thought he COULD be a guy who could fill a short term role. So basically when it was announced, he wasn't a guy who would be my ideal, but he was I guy I THOUGHT could do the job adequately. Well we all know how THAT worked out.

MY guy has always been BOB. His contract situation and Bill relationship with Saban made it impossible for him to be here in 2022, he'd be free in 2023 and Bill rolled the dice with MP/JJ and came up snake eyes. I never believed Patricia was a long term choice as an OC.

Here is a list of the reasons I believe what I do, which I probably should done in the first place.

1. No out of program candidates were even interviewed for the position. They knew the deal.
2. people forget just how many offensive assistants left with Josh. If Bill was gong with a long term OC, don't you think people would be banging down the door for a chance to be here, working with Bill, developing the best 2021 rookie QB, with a pretty solid, if not dynamic roster.
3. As to Calley, NONE of know how Bill felt about him, but he must have liked him to have kept him working for that long. But its one thing to be a position coach and another to be the coordinator. We know that Calley didn't want a one year gig. He knew, likey you should, that BOB was coming
4. You see the 2022 offense was a "radical" departure from what the Pats did in the past. I have an issue with the radical change part,and having it be a logical reason to believe MP was competing for a full time job.

Finally, since I'm done talking about this.....again , BOB IS the new OC. The language WILL remain the same. The offense WILL look different and better than last year (low bar). It will look different from the 2021 offense of Josh. I have NO idea if this improvement will translate into wins, since the schedule is as tough as I have ever seen this year.