Belichick is the problem and the answer

[RobertWeathers]

Re: Were we out coached in the 2nd half ?

Yes. Not having Jones, Love and Talib didn't help but to allow 3 2nd 1/2 TDs and not putting up a single point is really bad.

 

[olschool]

The point is that the Patriots lose a playoff game while missing key players and "fans" take a macro view of problem solving that's wildly off base. Ngata, Lewis and Suggs were absolutely healthy enough to be on the field the entire game. And, they played well. This loss had nothing to do with BB's schemes, Brady "choking," blah, blah, blah. Talib's injury was catastrophic. Kyle Love went down. Gronk would definitely have meant more points and better execution all around offensively. You need your top performers AVAILABLE in championship games, especially against a physical opponent like Baltimore. That was the essential difference.

When Talib went out this game was over. He's the only reason the defense improved late in the year.

Until BB can balance the offense with a high caliber defense, the result will be the same every year. 28th ranked defense just doesn't get it done in the playoffs. That lollipop and rainbows offense sure is exciting when they're beating up on weak teams, but look at their record against elite defenses in the past five years. It is just not good, not good at all.

 

[TheSparks1]

Re: Were we out coached in the 2nd half ?

I don't think there were any coaching decisions in the 2nd half that cost the Patriots the game. The difference was execution. Coaches can only do so much, and they can't play the game. Ravens outplayed the Patriots for most of the 2nd half and that is why they won. It's a tough pill to swallow but they deserve a lot of credit.

 

[reflexblue]

Nobody can maintain the kind of edge Belichick had his first few years with the Pats -- not even Belichick.

Most teams have a down period where they finish out of the playoffs (ex NYGiants) collect a few high round picks and start again. The Pats Never have a down time, their always in the mix to go all the way. They don't get to pick in the top 15, the price of always being near the top is drafting near the bottom.

 

[Tunescribe]

So, you really think that we still have the same advantage with Belichick that we had in the 2001 to 2006 era? You don't think that other coaches around the league have learned from Belichick and have studied the Pats. If there's nonsense, it's in your reasoning. It's quite obvious that teams copy a lot of what Belichick does, and it's quite obvious that in that way the Pats have lost some of the advantage of having so great a coach. And yes, if Gronk and Talib were there, we would have done better, but that's my point, there's parity at the upper level now, and we need better luck with injuries in order to win another Superbowl. Perhaps you should read a little more carefully before posting such snide remarks?

Forgive me for being snide after a night without sleep and catching a cold at the game. I just get frustrated reading things like this. The "BB advantage" has been, and always will be, a matter of organization and top-to-bottom roster management. To suggest other teams successfully implementing those practices as the reason for "playoff parity" doesn't pass the eye test. The "BB advantage" gets you to the tournament on a regular basis. Front-line talent gets you over the top. The Pats' front-line talent has been in process of ramping to the top of the heap for a few years now while the team has remained competitive. It will coalesce again before Brady is done.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

The only complaint I've had about BB the coach/GM is that it seems to me that he started beefing up the defense a couple years after he should have. It's awfully tempting to say I'd gladly trade some of our offensive pieces for some defensive ones. The decay in the defense was evident a long time before this last draft.

 

[bagwell368]

Next man up Tunescribe. That's been the Patriots mantra for forever and a day.

That's a fine thing to prep for, but after Love got hurt, Wilfork was an easy double team into oblivion.

The roster is still the strongest roster in the NFL.

This team was the youngest BB has ever had.

BB will go back to work and get us the impact DT/NT we need, along with CB, S (Chung is so gone), OL, WR via the draft, FA, and UDFA, and we'll be back as a top 4 seed again next year.

 

[bagwell368]

The only complaint I've had about BB the coach/GM is that it seems to me that he started beefing up the defense a couple years after he should have. It's awfully tempting to say I'd gladly trade some of our offensive pieces for some defensive ones. The decay in the defense was evident a long time before this last draft.

The defense was ready to be overhauled starting in 2005 and culminated in 2009. This D was #1 in turnovers created and 9th in points allowed, how this is some pack of crap considering injuries to Talib, Love, and Nink?

I have no idea. Try being a Pats fan since 1966, I promise you won't look at getting to an AFC championship as a bitter disaster a few months later...

Kids...

 

[bagwell368]

When Talib went out this game was over. He's the only reason the defense improved late in the year.

Until BB can balance the offense with a high caliber defense, the result will be the same every year. 28th ranked defense just doesn't get it done in the playoffs. That lollipop and rainbows offense sure is exciting when they're beating up on weak teams, but look at their record against elite defenses in the past five years. It is just not good, not good at all.

What 28th ranked D? 9th in points allowed and 1st in turnovers.

We kicked the crap out of Houston and Denver in 3 games this year, the top 2 seeds in the AFC. WTF are you talking about? Better yet, just stop.

 

[BadMoFo]

Re: Were we out coached in the 2nd half ?

Yes. Not having Jones, Love and Talib didn't help but to allow 3 2nd 1/2 TDs and not putting up a single point is really bad.

Exactly. That's called halftime adjustments.

Apparently, the Harbaugh brothers mastered that yesterday, outscoring their opponents, 35-0 in the two championship games.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

I've been one since the late 80s. And you didn't understand my point. I said I wish he had started the overhaul sooner... which you agreed with by pointing out that it was ready to be overhauled in 2005.

This was exactly my point

 

[Uncle Rico]

Most teams have a down period where they finish out of the playoffs (ex NYGiants) collect a few high round picks and start again. The Pats Never have a down time, their always in the mix to go all the way. They don't get to pick in the top 15, the price of always being near the top is drafting near the bottom.

Exactly. The Patriots have had sustained success that no one could have imagined when the NFL applied the concept of "parity." Remember, their business motto is something along the lines of competing for a championship every year, and they have certainly done that. (The last game they played when they weren't still in contention for a championship is Dec. 24, 2000, vs. Miami. Think about that.)

I think it's a stretch to say the league has caught up to this team; it's more a matter of at some point running into one of the few teams that match up badly with them. That's the nature of the playoffs. The seasons of some very good teams ended before the Pats' did, and it isn't the first time.

Sometimes it's hard to quantify the value of getting hot and healthy at the right time -- the Ravens this year and the Giants last year have shown that. (This year I just happen to think it won't matter; SF is simply the best team — and is healthy and hot).

Moving on to the "next man up" thing: Yes, it's a very important part of the Patriots success. No doubt. But it has its limits. I actually thought the DBs did a decent job covering last night after Talib went out. But not having his size back there was fatal, no matter how well Boldin was covered by others. (It would be pretty awesome to be able to put Talib and a healthy Dowling out there for such matchups some days).

I think "next man up" (and good regular season results) also put some of us in denial about just how big a loss Gronk was. All those Red Zone frustrations, followed by Flacco tossing it up and Boldin snatching the ball up high and people here saying -- "Wish we had a receiver who could do that." Well, "we" do. That's part of what makes Gronk so special. He's DEADLY from 30 yards in. "Next man up" doesn't account for those type of assets. Think about how the game might have been different with Boldin out and Gronk healthy, and you get the idea. (Note to Gronk: Time for a "Summer of Milk").

Well, that's all I've got here. Board today isn't as bad as I thought (probably because of the mods); seems to be a decent balance of forward-looking optimism to offset the heart-on-the-sleeve despair.

Isn't the Super Bowl in New Jersey next year? That would be sweet. Even as the clock is ticking on Brady, the Pats are loaded with young players who will only get better and — aren't they due for a relatively healthy season?

 

[Pewsterbaby]

That's a fine thing to prep for, but after Love got hurt, Wilfork was an easy double team into oblivion.

The roster is still the strongest roster in the NFL.

This team was the youngest BB has ever had.

BB will go back to work and get us the impact DT/NT we need, along with CB, S (Chung is so gone), OL, WR via the draft, FA, and UDFA, and we'll be back as a top 4 seed again next year.

Having a strong roster, top to bottom, doesn't cut it in the postseason. Having a strong first string who're healthy does. Giants, Ravens, & 49ers don't have depth but their starters rock. You just gotta have 'em healthy to get to The Super Bowl. Watered down depth, top to bottom, wins in the regular season but chumps it when it ultimately matters.

And those needs for next year you mentioned. lol. Wazzat? Half the positions? That's all? DT/NT, CB, S, OL, & WR? Gee, did you leave anything out? Nope. Got just about everything sans Brady covered there.
Don't forget to mention the ol' overrated depth aspect. Gotta have it all watered down now.

 

[jnug]

The Pats had the draft picks to draft complimentary DB's to go with the typical BB, DB draftee. They just did not do it. They kept drafting the same type of DB over and over and over again. They did not draft Talib. They got lucky enough to pick up Talib mid season. How often do you pull that off? However the silver lining is that what Talib was able to accomplish should be clear indication that the Pats MUST change the way they draft DB's or else be doomed to the same sort of secondary play we have been seeing only in a league that is becoming progressively more pass happy.

As for the offense, once again this is an issue of how the team is constructed. The Pats are built around a TE who while being a monster, lines up off the Tackle's shoulder. That makes him prone to heavy contact and injury and the Pats simply have no answer when Gronk is out. Lloyd is just another version of what we have had. Welker is past it and can no longer be relied upon as a playmaker....to slow...to small....getting to old. Hernandez can be controlled in light of the weakness of the receiving corp generally when Gronk is out.

It appears to me that BB has been as stubborn about getting this team a legit down the field threat as he has been about drafting a few big, athletic DB's to go with his little dwarf DB's.

I guess if we are satisfied with solid regular season performances followed by heartbreaking post season appearances, the Pats can just keep going like they are going. However the deeper a team goes into the playoffs the more its weaknesses are exposed and if they are really weak weaknesses you get what we got last night. This team must have a legit outside, deep threat to compliment Gronk and to give the Pats somebody to go to when Gronk is not there. The receiver corp can not be decimated in big games just because the TE is missing.

and....


on defense, again what Talib did this year cannot go ignored.

I doubt BB has suddenly gotten stupid over the course of time. So hopefully he makes the modifications he needs to make. But he is stubborn as all get out. Hopefully he gets TB a legit outside threat and revamps the way he values DB's. If not I think we continue to see last night repeated over and over again in subsequent seasons. In fact as the league continues to become more and more pass happy the Pats regular season performance may suffer as well.

 

[crew1954]

Let's just enjoy the ride, the extra games we get every year, and sooner or later our turn will come again, when we enter the post season injury free, when a tipped ball lands in the hands of one of our corners, and then we win another Superbowl. The Pats, the Ravens, the 49ers, and a few other teams are all pretty even, and I don't see how that will change anytime soon.

What seems to be missing from this conversation is that there has been parity in the NFL since 2000 anyway. The amazing thing about Belicheck isn't that he was head and shoulders above everyone else and that other teams have caught up, its that in a league of parity set up to allow for only mini-dyansties of a few years, Beliecheck has managed to always be one of them, and thus the only true dynastic coach of the new millenium.

Yes San Fran and BAL might be the class of the league for a few years. But all they have done is replace PIT and Indy who replaced San Diego, who replaced the Eagles who replaced Oakland and Tampa.

Who has replaced the Pats in any discussion of any 3-4 year period of the last 12 seasons?

Belicheck never dominated these teams, he just beat them when it mattered, in close games.

What was it about the tuck rule or Adam's 2 clutch kicks that the copycat coaches have figured out?

 

[Boston Boxer]

Nonsensical ruminating. The Patriots last night were a healthy Gronk and Talib away from this thread never existing.

true, but we cant rely on that. We need someone to step up when those guys go down. We lacked the weapons on O after Gronk went down IMO. When you are relying on Branch to play a meaningful role at WR, then you are done. As soon as Talib went down, our D was in shambles. Dennard is outstanding and will only get better, but the drop off at the other CB position is drastic.

it is troubling that we cant just go get a talented WR...the O is so complex that even a talented WR may not grasp it and becomes useless.

 

[PP2]

BB was the least of the problems last night. Our defense played way too conservative. History has shown clearly that Flacco gets flustered by pass-rushing, but we very rarely did that, and the complexion of the defense changed once Talib went out. Also Chandler Jones (2 snaps) was ineffective, Gronk was out. Ridley fumbled again. Brady failed to run two more yards for the first down. Just didn't get the job done. Got *****-whipped. Simple as that.

 

[coolguy]

I love bill, but how much of his success is from playing in the afc east?

The afc east is potentially 6 guaranteed wins. I'm not hating, but i always wondered how the patriots would do in the afc north.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

Belichick is awesome. So are the Harbaughs, though.

Gone are the days of the coaching mismatches like Belichick vs. Cowher (2001 & 2004 AFCCGs), or vs. Martz (SB36), or vs. Reid (SB39) to give the Pats an edge to compensate for the one they didn't have in talent. The Ravens (and 49ers) are both stacked and superbly coached. Against those teams, the Pats need superior coaching as well as execution or else they are done. Yesterday showed that.

Regards,
Chris

 

[stcjones]

You are dead on here.....Defense has been a "work in progress" for quite some time now....I know that it SHOULD get better next year...but until they get a kick a## secondary and Pass rush again CONSISTENTLY...I don't see things changing much. The defenses from the SB years here were nasty...and mean. People around the league despised Rodney Harrison....WHY? Because he was nasty...Not Bernard Cheap sh^t Pollard nasty....just hard hitting nasty. He was a leader, so was bruschi....so was McGinnest (sp). The defenses in those years WERE THE REASON we won those championships. Brady was clutch then too....and he game managed a great conservative offense. Since then, BB has continued to bring out a patchwork secondary with also rans, undrafted question marks, and sloppy technique hot messes. Combine that with a piss poor pass rush ability....and you don't have a good defense. BB needs to get back to what made him legendary. Sign AND KEEP Top Shelp CB/Secondary players. Sign the beasts and get the nastiest bunch of dirty defensive linemen you can. Get some LEADERS On that defense. Bring in a TOP NOTCH defensive coordinator next season (maybe ring up Romeo Crennel....or someone like him)

On offense....you had better get some damned weapons next year. No more achy, breaky washed up WR's like Branch. Don't see Welker coming back here unless he takes a hometeam discount....the guy has been legendary here...but how many more dropped passes at critical moments are going to happen in the next couple years as his skills and body continue to diminish. This guy has been hit so hard and so often that he's gotta be hearing footsteps that aren't even there.....(Seems like Brady has some of that going on to with the new bobbing and weaving stuff when no one is even that close to him yet) Like you say, you have to think that Gronk is going to be a question mark during the season...and you just can't count on him to be there in the postseason because of his injury "factor" or potential for bad luck injuries to happen at the worst times. I think with Ballard coming back next year full health (hopefully) will help tremendously. Need some more help on the OL as vollmer is most likely gone...but they should be ok. Ridley, Bolden, Vereen, Woody, Demps.....RB should be great next year.

Until proven otherwise, Gronk's style of play dictates he's an uncertainty to be serviceable late in the season. You can't rely on having him in the playoffs.
And Talib has health issues too.
And anyway, he's been unfairly appointed the savior of the entire defense.
He's one player.

The defense sucks. It's sucked for years and years now. Sucked for the whole second half of Brady's career. What a waste.
And it's because of Belichick's propensity for bringing on players he can control. They have nobody anyone fears. Defensive players need to be feared. That's half the battle & scheme. Super Bowl winning teams have defensive players who're feared.
Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, McGuiness, Seymour, Law were all feared.

These days, Belichick's a control freak who doesn't want defensive players with attitude. Too bad attitude's a prerequisite for winning the Super Bowl.