Belichick is rebuilding for 2012

[The Dynasty]

I'll have to take your word for it. I have no intention of watching that game again, for any reason or purpose. Nonetheless, LeVoir was getting beaten like a rented mule, so struggles by Light after his long layoff wouldn't surprise me, given that the line as a whole was in a state of near complete breakdown once the team abandoned the tight end blocking. He's still better than Vollmer at this point, based upon what I've seen throughout the season.

That's your opinion, we'll see what happens when they are both healthy and playing

 

[mgteich]

I guess winning a couple of more games and having a better 2009 team just doesn't matter to you. After all, we won in 2001. We don't need to have a better team. ????????????

Giving up the services of Seymour and Hobbs is a big deal. I would rather have had their 2009 services and two 2011 thirds than have Ohrnberger and a 2011 first.

Perhaps we should have traded Wilfork for two future firsts: one in 2012 and one in 2013???????

The reality is that we were in fine, fine shape for 2009, 2010 and 2011 without giving up Seymour and Hobbs. We had plenty of choices this year and in 2010. And surely, we expect Belichick to trade for 2011 picks in 2010 draft and in the 2010 offseason, not to mention the comp picks for Hobbs and Seymour.

No one is talking about giving up everything for success this year. We had ALREADY traded two picks forward into 2010. Belichick was taking care of the future. Belichick had already added 16 rookies to the system. That is also taking care of the future. We didn't need to give up two of our top players for future draft choices.
==========

Now maybe you don't think we would have been better with Seymour and Hobbs on the field. That is another matter. Perhaps you like then idea that we need to bring in a street free agent when Wilfork went down. Perhaps you think the team would be worse with Hobbs as the dime back and kick returner. Perhaps you think Ohrnberger is a stud that we couldn't find in the 2010 draft with all our picks.

Seymour was gone after this season anyway. The Pats realized that and got a Top-5 pick out of that.

Why you wouldn't want to sacrifice one season out of one player for a Top-5 pick is beyond me.

 

[mgteich]

We voluntarily decided to play without Seymour and Hobbs, knwoing the issues that the defense would have this year and knowing that Brady would take sopme time to be at 100%. Our current situation is exactly what should ahve been expected. We will win our weak division and make it to the playoffs and we will eb competitive. And we are the patriots, so the patriot magic is all that some think we need to win the Super Bowl.

We may or may not be a 2nd tier contender. Perhaps we are still first tier. HOWEVER, I have no doubt that we would have been better off in 2009 with Seymour and Hobbs, and would have had a better chance for the Super Bowl.

It's nice to be competitive indefinitely. But being a 2nd tier contender indefinitely wouldn't be worth it.

 

[mgteich]

All are entitled to their opinion. You think that Seymour and Hobbs would not have made a difference. I will start a poll.

What are you trying to say? That if we had Seymour and Vrabel we win the game last night? We had this same argument after the Colts game. Vrabel is too slow to cover any WRs, TEs and RBs, so he wouldnt have done anything. Seymour would not have had an impact either. 1 sack, maybe? Big deal.

These players are not much of an upgrade to what we have, if at all.

 

[mgteich]

We are looking forward. Is dumping Seymour and Hobbs the way to become a better team in 2009?

Somehow I don't think that 2007 was a "2nd tier contender".

If you're thinking after 2007, then book is still open.

 

[mgteich]

For me, this is Seymour, Hobbs, a 2011 late 3rd, a second 2011 late 3rd for
a 2011 1st and Ohrnberger.

It also about not doing our best to put our best team on the field in 2009.
=======================================
I trust Belichick's judgement regarding Vrabel. Besides we needed to dump cassel's cap money and Vrabel was part of the deal. .

In hindsight, we wouldn't need Burgess if Seymour stayed, but that is because Banta-Cain turned out so well.

The team did have the right players, and Belichick traded them away, needlessly. The team already had plenty of picks in the draft, and it didn't need the one it got for Seymour in order to maintain a competitive advantage. In fact, those who are singing the "need the picks for the future" were singing a very different tune when Belichick pissed away a 3rd and a 5th to get Burgess. Those two deals with the Raiders have turned out to be:

Burgess
2011 first round draft pick

for

Seymour
2010 3rd round draft pick
2010 5th round draft pick
Loss of any Seymour compensation moving forward

Couple those moves with the trading of Hobbs and Vrabel, and one can see that the system actually put the defense in a position to fail this season, in a year when the QB was returning from a major injury. It's not knee jerk to point this out and question it. It's what every fan should be doing, because the moves were mistakes, either in general or in compensation.

As for the window, it's been slowly closing since 2004, as the players who got the team to the Super Bowls have been moving on, and Brady has gotten older. NFL history has shown that teams don't compete consistently without top quality quarterbacks.

 

[Deus Irae]

For me, this is Seymour, Hobbs, a 2011 late 3rd, a second 2011 late 3rd for
a 2011 1st and Ohrnberger.

It also about not doing our best to put our best team on the field in 2009.
=======================================
I trust Belichick's judgement regarding Vrabel. Besides we needed to dump cassel's cap money and Vrabel was part of the deal. .

In hindsight, we wouldn't need Burgess if Seymour stayed, but that is because Banta-Cain turned out so well.

You and I tend to be in general agreement regarding the defensive moves, albeit not in lock step.

The Vrabel move could have been fine. However, packaging him and only getting a second round pick, and then not getting an adequate replacement, makes it a terrible decision, because the team ended up giving up a 3rd and 5th for Burgess. Imagine how bad that position would look if TBC hadn't played to the level he has, and his run defense and pass coverage certainly leave a lot to be desired. Even ignoring Cassel in that Vrabel trade, we're basically looking at exchanging the linebacker position via:

2nd round pick
Burgess

for

Vrabel
3rd round pick
5th round pick

Again, that's without Cassel getting thrown into the mix.


Belichick screwed the pooch on this season, and it's going to take a lot of improvement for this team to win the Super Bowl as a result.

 

[mgteich]

Belichick apparently believed that one of Burgess and Banta-Cain would be a better choice than an aged Vrabel. I suspect that he was right. TBC did indeed turn out to be as good as most expected Vrabel to be in 2009. It could have been Burgess and Woods that stepped up instead.

I agree that Belichick did not give the team the best chances at winning in 2009 by dumping Seymour and Hobbs, and not bringing in more LB help. However, I disagree with you regarding Vrabel. I think that Banta-Cain and Burgess have provided more production than we would likely have gotten from Vrabel.

You and I tend to be in general agreement regarding the defensive moves, albeit not in lock step.

The Vrabel move could have been fine. However, packaging him and only getting a second round pick, and then not getting an adequate replacement, makes it a terrible decision, because the team ended up giving up a 3rd and 5th for Burgess. Imagine how bad that position would look if TBC hadn't played to the level he has, and his run defense and pass coverage certainly leave a lot to be desired. Even ignoring Cassel in that Vrabel trade, we're basically looking at exchanging the linebacker position via:

2nd round pick
Burgess

for

Vrabel
3rd round pick
5th round pick

Again, that's without Cassel getting thrown into the mix.


Belichick screwed the pooch on this season, and it's going to take a lot of improvement for this team to win the Super Bowl as a result.

 

[mayoclinic]

Belichick apparently believed that one of Burgess and Banta-Cain would be a better choice than an aged Vrabel. I suspect that he was right. TBC did indeed turn out to be as good as most expected Vrabel to be in 2009. It could have been Burgess and Woods that stepped up instead.

I agree that Belichick did not give the team the best chances at winning in 2009 by dumping Seymour and Hobbs, and not bringing in more LB help. However, I disagree with you regarding Vrabel. I think that Banta-Cain and Burgess have provided more production than we would likely have gotten from Vrabel.

I concur on this one. Much as I loved Vrabes, I think he was done for us. I never expected TBC to step up the way he has, but I think it was reasonable to expect that Vrabel's production would be replaceable.

They Seymour move may be brilliant in the long run, but it's hard to argue that it did anything but hurt us this year. How much we'll never know, but our ability to stop the run hasn't been particularly impressive this year, and could easily have cost us the Indy and Denver games.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I concur on this one. Much as I loved Vrabes, I think he was done for us. I never expected TBC to step up the way he has, but I think it was reasonable to expect that Vrabel's production would be replaceable.

They Seymour move may be brilliant in the long run, but it's hard to argue that it did anything but hurt us this year. How much we'll never know, but our ability to stop the run hasn't been particularly impressive this year, and could easily have cost us the Indy and Denver games.

Only Indy ran for 91 yards and 1 TD while passing for 327 yards and 4TD while Denver ran for 103 yards and 0 TD while Orton passed for 330 yards and 2 TD.

We are 9th against the run thus far this season. In 2008 we finished 8th.

We struggle to get pressure as we have for a couple of seasons with Seymour and we have a young secondary that is maddeningly inconsistent. I remember once upon a time we had this third year corner named Samuel playing in place of the departed Ty Law and he couldn't cover my late mother or catch a cold...blossomed into a probowler in his 4th season although when it really mattered...in his 5th season, he regressed to his mean.

 

[bostonia3333]

I am glad we won't sign Wilfork, who'll probably get a 100 million dollar deal from Dallas, lol. Wilfork is good with stuffing the run and nothing else. The game seems to be all about passing now. Few teams these days believe in establishing the run and staying with it. A running game is merely to keep a defense off its heels, not to be the focal part of your offensive success The Pats can't stop any qb from throwing on them-running teams don't beat the Pats. I would love to face the Dolphins and Jags sixteen times a season! The offseason focus should be on getting a defensive playcaller, who can challenge BB and get in his face and pick his brain. Dean Pees is a follower, he's like a sponge--he sucks up info, does what he's told, and isn't able to make suggestions and be creative.

I think this year is Moss' last year of greatness. He'll be effective and probably a top 10 receiver next year, but expect some decline in that speed and possibly motivation as this team has missed the Super Bowl title for 3 consecutive years--you gotta wonder how much longer he(other team members too) can believe in BB's philosophy and buy into it. You gotta wonder about making an offer to Andre Johnson. He'd cost a fortune, but Brady, being a qb, has 5 or 6 NFL years left in him. Andre Johnson isn't Moss, but he's really the only thing out there that comes close--a class act as well.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

We are 9th against the run thus far this season. In 2008 we finished 8th.

We struggle to get pressure as we have for a couple of seasons with Seymour and we have a young secondary that is maddeningly inconsistent. I remember once upon a time we had this third year corner named Samuel playing in place of the departed Ty Law and he couldn't cover my late mother or catch a cold...blossomed into a probowler in his 4th season although when it really mattered...in his 5th season, he regressed to his mean.

The Pats were 14th against the run in 2008. And I agree that Samuel was terrible in his first season as a starter in '05. In fact, Starks was so bad people didn't notice how bad Saumel was.

I am glad we won't sign Wilfork, who'll probably get a 100 million dollar deal from Dallas, lol.

I'd rather let Wilfork walk and sign Peppers. In turn, the Pats would probably have to switch to a 4-3 defense. 4-3 defense's are a lot easier to build then an effective 3-4.

 

[Mogamedogz]

1) We are heavy division favorties, as expected.
2) We are not Super Bowl favorites as we were before we traded Seymour in order to potentially better the 2012-2015 teams (giving the rook a year to develop).
3) The defense has been completely rebuilt in the last couple of years except for Warren, Wilfork and Thomas. We'll see about Wilfork and Thomas in the offseason.
4) Belichick doesn't want any top coordinators in the coaching staff.
=====================================================

The goal is to be competitive for the Super Bowl each year. If only the goal were to win in 2009.

Why???????

 

[Deus Irae]

Only Indy ran for 91 yards and 1 TD while passing for 327 yards and 4TD while Denver ran for 103 yards and 0 TD while Orton passed for 330 yards and 2 TD.

We are 9th against the run thus far this season. In 2008 we finished 8th.

We struggle to get pressure as we have for a couple of seasons with Seymour and we have a young secondary that is maddeningly inconsistent. I remember once upon a time we had this third year corner named Samuel playing in place of the departed Ty Law and he couldn't cover my late mother or catch a cold...blossomed into a probowler in his 4th season although when it really mattered...in his 5th season, he regressed to his mean.

Last season, the safety play wasn't as strong supporting the run, Thomas was missing games, Warren was missing games (he's missed one this season), Vrabel was playing with a bad shoulder, the interior of the linebacking corps consisted of a rookie and Bruschi, and consisted of 2 rookies on passing downs. Despite all of that, and according to NFL.com:

The Patriots are currently 23rd against the run. They were 15th last season. That's an 8 spot drop, despite the many claims made by some that this defense was much better than last year's squad.

The Patriots are currently 27th in the league in sacks, even with TBC playing as well as he has in pass rushing situations. They were 14th last season. That's a 13 spot drop, despite the many claims made by some that this defense was much better than last year's squad.

I'm not sure that pointing out how easily quality teams are destroying this defense through the air is going to change the reality of the substandard nature of the team against the run, but that's one approach to take, I guess.

Finally, given that the Patriots were second in the league in sacks in 2007, I'm not sure how one could argue that the team actually fits the description of "struggle to get pressure as we have for a couple of seasons with Seymour"

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

They were 15th last season.

They were really 14th against the run as two teams tied for 13th.

 

[Patspsycho]

I'd rather let Wilfork walk and sign Peppers.

You need your head examined. Wilfork is far and away the MVP of the D corp this year (yes, over Mayo). There are so many things he does that anchor our D, I can't even start to explain.

 

[Patspsycho]

Wilfork is good with stuffing the run and nothing else.

You are dead wrong.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

You need your head examined. Wilfork is far and away the MVP of the D corp this year (yes, over Mayo). There are so many things he does that anchor our D, I can't even start to explain.

How's our run defense doing?

 

[IcyPatriot]

Do we have a monopoly on available talent every year.
To read these threads and not know much I would assume every player would love to play here,
for less money and of course we can spend to the heavens ... no cap.

 

[Patspsycho]

How's our run defense doing?

Warren and Green have been out with injuries and haven't exactly been 100%. We gave up Seymour for the future. All things considered, Wilfork has held his own in the center. Again it's not just the run, but what he does that draws a double-team pretty much every time. Yet he continues to make play after play.