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An absurd accomplishment Brady may be chasing

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Nov 28th

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Ice_Ice_Brady

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With all due respect (and I fully acknowledge the greatness of Orr), WG is greater. A +/- cannot tell the whole story.

I agree with posters stating only 99 can compare to Brady in terms of ridiculous stats.

You’re right. +/- doesn’t tell the whole story. Gretzky has an inflated +/- because he played with an all-star supporting cast (who won a cup after he left). He never won a cup himself outside of Edmonton but Messier did. Most hockey experts acknowledge that while Gretzky was great, he was the second best offensive player of that era (Lemieux), but he just played for a long damn time and was consistently great, on a team full of great players.

Orr led the league in scoring several times as a DEFENSEMAN. He was super dominant on both sides, which is exactly why his impact shows in his +/-. Simply put, in their primes, you would win more games with Bobby Orr, since leading your team to scoring more goals and allowing less goals, while you’re on the ice, means you’ll win more games. It doesn’t matter if MVP awards are biased towards offense.

From a longevity standpoint, Gretzky has an argument as the greatest. But he wasn’t the greatest in his prime compared to Orr in his prime. There have been a lot of players who are similar to Gretzky in their abilities, but no one has ever come close emulating Orr.
 
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farn

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You’re right. +/- doesn’t tell the whole story. Gretzky has an inflated +/- because he played with an all-star supporting cast (who won a cup after he left). He never won a cup himself outside of Edmonton but Messier did. Most hockey experts acknowledge that while Gretzky was great, he was the second best offensive player of that era (Lemieux), but he just played for a long damn time and was consistently great, on a team full of great players.

Orr led the league in scoring several times as a DEFENSEMAN. He was super dominant on both sides, which is exactly why his impact shows in his +/-. Simply put, in their primes, you would win more games with Bobby Orr, since leading your team to scoring more goals and allowing less goals, while you’re on the ice, means you’ll win more games. It doesn’t matter if MVP awards are biased towards offense.

From a longevity standpoint, Gretzky has an argument as the greatest. But he wasn’t the greatest in his prime compared to Orr in his prime. There have been a lot of players who are similar to Gretzky in their abilities, but no one has ever come close emulating Orr.
We disagree. There haven’t been any players similar to Gretzky. Anyhoo, back to football. Tom is great.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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We disagree. There haven’t been any players similar to Gretzky. Anyhoo, back to football. Tom is great.

Cool...glad to agree to disagree. Just to clarify, I was referring to Gretzky’s style. Good call to move on before this becomes the NHL GOAT thread :)
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
2021 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
At some point in the future, the nfl is going to 18 games.

They will break the protests of the players association by giving the players a larger cut of the overall revenues which should increase substantially with two extra games.

After the move to 18 games, the record books will be rewritten across the board.

But at the end of the day, 8 super bowl appearances and a plus 750 winning percentage will be nearly impossible to beat.
 

QuantumMechanic

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After the move to 18 games, the record books will be rewritten across the board.
I've long felt that all the official records need adjustment for the changing season lengths.

Certainly for all single-season records the official records should be based on per-game amounts. So there would be no official NFL record for most passing yards in a season. But there would be one for most per-game passing yards for a full season, and so on. (There'd still be an unofficial record for most passing yards in a season).

Cumulative records are a lot tougher. My math side would like to see all multi-season records normalized to the number of games in the at-the-time current season. So all those players who played in the 14-game season era would have all their career numbers multiplied by 16/14 for the purposes of determining official career records. And the players who played in the 11-game era would have their numbers multiplied by 16/11, and so on. But I realize the problems with doing that.
 

1960Pats

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You’re right. +/- doesn’t tell the whole story. Gretzky has an inflated +/- because he played with an all-star supporting cast (who won a cup after he left). He never won a cup himself outside of Edmonton but Messier did. Most hockey experts acknowledge that while Gretzky was great, he was the second best offensive player of that era (Lemieux), but he just played for a long damn time and was consistently great, on a team full of great players.

Orr led the league in scoring several times as a DEFENSEMAN. He was super dominant on both sides, which is exactly why his impact shows in his +/-. Simply put, in their primes, you would win more games with Bobby Orr, since leading your team to scoring more goals and allowing less goals, while you’re on the ice, means you’ll win more games. It doesn’t matter if MVP awards are biased towards offense.

From a longevity standpoint, Gretzky has an argument as the greatest. But he wasn’t the greatest in his prime compared to Orr in his prime. There have been a lot of players who are similar to Gretzky in their abilities, but no one has ever come close emulating Orr.

One of Orr's moves was to come flying around the Bruins goal to head up ice and if a player was waiting for him he would do a quick 360 without losing a step and be on his way. Then there was one time when the opposing team had a second player there to get him when he came off his spin and he just did another one, again without losing a step.

I remember hearing about him coming for years. He was drafted at age 12 or 13 and people were already talking about him.

In the video below one of his plays happened right in front of me when I had a front row seat at the game. He was knocked down pretty hard (very rare occurrence) and while on his back he slid a backwards pass toward the net to Johnny Bucyk, who scored.

The play is at the 2:20 mark of the video. I can still visualize it like it was yesterday.

 

Actual Pats Fan

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A +/- cannot tell the whole story.
Yup, it does.

Wayne is The Great One. Unique. Special. Prolific. A winner.

Howe is amazing, too.

But there's been a bunch of other super players...a lot of them, like Richard, played for the Canadiens due to their getting the top Canadian pick for decades.

Suppose, Bobby was discovered by the Habs. That's got to be five or six Cups, at least, even with Bobby's knees. But Bobby would never have been called upon to carry the Habs upon his back no matter how good he was, and this I believe would have extended his career immensely.

I think Bobby would have won nine or ten Cups if he played in Montreal.

Wayne is one of the best, ever. The greatest scorer, ever, in terms of points. He wasn't called upon to physically overpower anybody, or anchor the defense. That wasn't his job.

Bobby Orr made all the other players on the ice look stupid, at both ends.

Schmidt, Howe and others who saw him play flatly state that Orr is the best, ever, and it's not close.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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Think about it: 400 yard games are now almost commonplace, a 6,000 yard Regular Season is virtually inevitable and one of these guys is eventually going to throw for 90,000 career (Regular and Postseason) yards...or more.
Indeed.

It is absurd to believe that:

Kerry Collins is better than Y.A. Tittle:rolleyes:

Neil Lomax is better than Charley Trippi:rolleyes:

Peyton Manning is better than Johnny Unitas:rolleyes:

Drew Bledsoe is better than five other Patriots quarterbacks besides Tom Brady:rolleyes:
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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I’ll abstain, as promised, from comparing Orr and Gretzky. No need to knock someone else’s well reasoned opinion. I’m not a huge hockey fan in general but became fascinated by Orr a few years ago and got all the info, videos, etc. that I could find about him.

One thing I’d like to add: Bobby Orr did not revolutionize the position or the game. When an athlete revolutionizes the game, he creates a new path for future players to follow in. Orr is a singular player in that no one has ever been able to copy, or even come close to copy, his unique dominance. That’s why he is such an outlier, as no one can even copy his game, let alone improve it. In other words, no one has ever been capable of making Orr’s influence into a revolution.

The only athlete with the RAW SKILLS comparable to Orr is Mike Vick, from a physical standpoint only, and he wasn’t able to master the position enough though he had the potential to truly be a unique incomparable player. Many players have been absolutely spectacular but are just ultra-good versions of their sport and position, not completely unique.
 

Actual Pats Fan

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I’ll abstain, as promised, from comparing Orr and Gretzky. No need to knock someone else’s well reasoned opinion. I’m not a huge hockey fan in general but became fascinated by Orr a few years ago and got all the info, videos, etc. that I could find about him.

One thing I’d like to add: Bobby Orr did not revolutionize the position or the game. When an athlete revolutionizes the game, he creates a new path for future players to follow in. Orr is a singular player in that no one has ever been able to copy, or even come close to copy, his unique dominance. That’s why he is such an outlier, as no one can even copy his game, let alone improve it. In other words, no one has ever been capable of making Orr’s influence into a revolution.

The only athlete with the RAW SKILLS comparable to Orr is Mike Vick, from a physical standpoint only, and he wasn’t able to master the position enough though he had the potential to truly be a unique incomparable player. Many players have been absolutely spectacular but are just ultra-good versions of their sport and position, not completely unique
Good point. There have been several rushing defensemen in the NHL, beginning with our own Eddie Shore, who were spectacular. And, several offensively effective defensemen since - including our very own Ray Bourque.

What Bobby did was, indeed, insane, unprecedented, and never to be emulated.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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So he’s 75% of the way there at 41 years old

Sounds nice, don’t count on it

Good way of looking at it.

Brady has played 16 seasons (taking out 2000 and 2008.). He is planning to play 21 if he can do it. If that’s the case he has completed 76% of his career and is 74% of the way to 300 wins. Crazy to think about and makes it hard to believe he can play through his 45 season, but if you’re betting on Tom’s own belief, the 300 pace is actually almost tick for tick in alignment.

Or if people think that playing five more years is realistic, I don’t see why 300 wins is unrealistic.
 
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libra957

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
He's also on pace for a career high in interception, he's on pace to throw 30.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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He's also on pace for a career high in interception, he's on pace to throw 30.

A. No he isn’t. 19-20.
B. He would have been on pace for about 12 despite all the problems with the offense, if it weren’t for those two flukes last game.
C. It will even out, though he’ll stilk likely wind up with a high number for him because of this start. He hasn’t been throwing them due to physical issues, and I don’t expect he will make bad decisions the new norm.
 

Gronk

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
Over the past few years I’ve felt like his goal is more longetivity based than stats based (though, most of the counting stats will obviously pile up because of how long he plays). I think he’s occasionally spoken of it, not explicitly of course, in the sense that he does have some specific goal of reaching but despite any long term goals or work towards preserving his body his MO is also to redirect all energy to the next game. That goal could be 20 years as starter - which would be 3 more beyond this season - and that could definitely net 10 SB appearances (obviously no less than 5 wins), 15 AFCCG showings, and easily 250 wins...which isn’t the 300 posited here but still an insurmountable feat. I just don’t think those numbers are what drives him.

I’ve just been trying to enjoy the ride for about 4 years now, and since his GOATness is already well established, everything now is gravy. Has been since February 2015. But I also felt like I was listening to a guy who was rethinking everything he previously believed in the Tom vs Time episodes from last winter. On one hand it’d be soooo easy to walk away on the mountaintop if he gets another SB title. He’s over 40, it’d be his 6th which leaves him alone as most ever for an individual player, and it’s a great coda for his career. On the other hand, if they won again...what’s to stop them from winning a 7th? I’m not sure how 42/43/44 year old Tom Brady weighs that question.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

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Goober's treasured passing yardage record only has 35 yards left in its life as I type this. Woot!

And now Goober is 40 TD passes from owning only the following notable records (outside his 2013 stat padding mission where he predictably face planted against Seattle):

-Lowest QB rating of all-time for Super Bowl “MVP” (2006)
-Lowest playoff rating of SB wining QB (2006)
-Lowest season long QB rating of all-time for SB winning champion (2015)
-Most postseason losses of all-time
-Lowest percentage of successful game wining drives/comebacks per opportunity in postseason history
-Fastest score in Super Bowl history (-2 on safety)
-Most game clinching pick sixes in Super Bowl history
-Most career one-and-dones (Gretzky-esque lead)
 
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Chevy

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Doesn't any milestone / record / accomplishment Brady sets this year qualify as "absurd"?

The man is 41, has taken more than his share of hits over the years, walks out on to the field each week with a target on his back (due to the Pat's overall success), hardly has the same weapons for more than two or three years ... the list goes on. And the W's keep piling up.
 

Redstorm

Practice Squad Player
Averaging 15 wins per season, it would take Brady about 5 years to get that record. I don't see it happening.

Atleast he'll be the winningest when he retires
 
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