Adam Vinatieri, Stephen Gostkowski, and "clutchness"

[brdmaverick]

I don't recall Gostkowski being in many high leverage FG attempts given his amount of time in the league. I'm talking FG's at the end that are win or lose plays, the truly clutch ones.

I only have two in mind the kick against the Giants and 15 and the Super Bowl kick which was clutch but again it wasn't a Vinatieri last second kick to decide it.

Gostkowski seems to hit the high leverage ones but he has been in so few high leverage situations I'm not sure how clutch he really is.

One that quickly exits people’s memory bc the game ultimately ended in a loss, but the very next week after that giants game gost had to make a long kick in the last play of regulation to tie the game at Denver. He made it but the broncos won in it. Still it was a high pressure situation in which he came through.

 

[1960Pats]

It amazes me how Vinatieri supporters completely ignore the fact that Gostkowski kicks the ball longer and more accurately.

It also amazes me how those same fans just ignore the fact that the Pats saved a roster spot by going to Gostkowski. That one roster spot is HUGE.

Yes, Vinatieri made a great kick 17 years ago and we're all grateful, but he chose to leave for the great indoors of Indy and has been an Indiot much longer than he's been a Patriot.

Let him go.

 

[Triumph]

Gostowskis misses would be way worse without Brady.

Given a choice between them, Adam V all day everyday.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Gostowskis misses would be way worse without Brady.

Given a choice between them, Adam V all day everyday.

Are you saying both of them in their prime, or as of today?

It's been mentioned many times before but Vinatieri missed kicks too. What if back in Super Bowl 38, we didn't get in FG range and go on to lose in OT? Would Vinatieri's 2 missed FGs count against him then? And Brady didn't help Adam at all, only Gost? Brady driving us down against Carolina and giving Vinatieri the opportunity for redemption doesn't count?

Adam made some clutch kicks for us, no doubt. But because of that, he seemingly gets a free pass and people pretend he never missed.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Hey, they're both great kickers. But, and this is not a knock on SG...

...few kickers can claim this kind of moment.

That sums it up. Statistically, there's very little daylight between #4 and Gostkowski. Today, of all the K's in the NFL, there's no one I'd rather have as the Patriots' Kicker than Stephen Gostkowski.

But, if this were a game of Bridge, Adam Vinatieri would hold the Ace, King and Queen of
Ace: The 45 yard FG into the teeth of a blizzard to tie the "Tuck Game," frequently called the greatest kick under pressure in the history of the NFL.
King: The 48 yard Walk-off FG to win SB XXXVI.
Queen: The 41 yard FG to win SB XXXVIII with four seconds left on the clock.

The biggest difference between Vinatieri and Gostkowski is that #4 had the opportunities described above. None of us can know how Gostkowski would have performed if he had the same opportunities. But, what we can reasonably argue is that Vinatieri will be the first K to enter Canton on the first ballot.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

The only kicks that SG missed that stand out to me are:

1. The miss against Arizona at home early in the season in 2012. We thought the game was lost then Spikes nailed the RB in the backfield while they were trying to run out the clock. Fumble recovered. Gronk, I'm pretty sure, scored the game-winning TD but moron replacement refs called an absurd hold on someone. Ghost missed that field goal as time ran out to make it all for naught. It was hilarious seeing the fairweather fans trying to run back to their seats when we recovered that fumble though

2. The missed PAT in Denver. We 3 peat if not for that, IMO. Felt like the offense had started to figure it out just a little late but if we went to overtime we could win it, with how much Manning sucked that year.

 

[AzorianPats]

Goatkowski has missed more crucial FG’s in more recent games obviously. I was cussing him out after he missed the FG vs the Rams. Combined his missed kicks in SB 51 and 52 and the miss in Denver in 2015.

But what Gostkowski has over Adam is his ability to pin teams back on kickoffs. That’s such an underrated weapon we have. Him and Ryan Allen punting.

AV will always be remembered fondly. Snow Bowl kick. Plus walk off GW FG in SB 36 and 38. Gostkowski doesn’t have the signature kick...... yet.

Morale of the story. We’ve had 2 ****ing great kickers the last 20+ years.

 

[luuked]

It's when SG has missed. Arizona a FG as long as the old XP lost the game. Denver 2015 AFFCG he hits that XP and that game would have gone to OT. 2016 SB just when they start a comeback he missed an XP which was the lowest point of that game for me. He was lucky to get bailed out. 2017 SB missed FG and XP. 2018 SB missed a FG.

All of these were at important parts of the game.

You know what all those games had in common as well ? Brady throwing awful picks at similarly important points of the game.

If he never throws that god-awful ball that Von Miller picks off around our own redzone thats 7 points compared to the 1 XP that Ghost missed.

If Brady doesn't throw that pick six against the Falcons right before halftime thats another maybe 10 point swing since we were getting into scoring range.

If Brady doesn't keep staring at Gronk against the Eagles and throws the easy and wide open checkdown to White in the flat he will not get strip-sacked.


You focus on one part that went wrong in those games but completely invert the basic idea of a team sport by assigning blame to one person more than others who made similar mistakes. Ghost has made more clutch kicks that he missed in his career. He has been one of the best and most consistent kickers in league history. And, yet, here we are cherry picking his misses in games that didn't work out for many other reasons.

 

[everlong]

You know what all those games had in common as well ? Brady throwing awful picks at similarly important points of the game.

If he never throws that god-awful ball that Von Miller picks off around our own redzone thats 7 points compared to the 1 XP that Ghost missed.

If Brady doesn't throw that pick six against the Falcons right before halftime thats another maybe 10 point swing since we were getting into scoring range.

If Brady doesn't keep staring at Gronk against the Eagles and throws the easy and wide open checkdown to White in the flat he will not get strip-sacked.


You focus on one part that went wrong in those games but completely invert the basic idea of a team sport by assigning blame to one person more than others who made similar mistakes. Ghost has made more clutch kicks that he missed in his career. He has been one of the best and most consistent kickers in league history. And, yet, here we are cherry picking his misses in games that didn't work out for many other reasons.

You're comparing a QB who drops back 40-60 times per game and in the case of the Denver game was under constant pressure to a kicker who fact remains has missed at some of the most inopportune times. I've never suggested he should be cut. I've never called him a bum. The simple fact is because of when some of his misses have occurred AND the results of those games a lot of people myself included worry every time he has a big kick. AV has missed kicks in big games. I laughed my ass off when he missed a huge one for the Colts that cost them against the Bolts. But even though his missed two against the Panthers, one tipped at the line, I still had no fear of him missing the game winner.

 

[1960Pats]

Gostowskis misses would be way worse without Brady.

Given a choice between them, Adam V all day everyday.

Both of them kicked with Brady.

Gostkowski hits them longer and more accurately in spite of the fact that AV has played many, many more of his games indoors.

 

[Triumph]

Are you saying both of them in their prime, or as of today?

It's been mentioned many times before but Vinatieri missed kicks too. What if back in Super Bowl 38, we didn't get in FG range and go on to lose in OT? Would Vinatieri's 2 missed FGs count against him then? And Brady didn't help Adam at all, only Gost? Brady driving us down against Carolina and giving Vinatieri the opportunity for redemption doesn't count?

Adam made some clutch kicks for us, no doubt. But because of that, he seemingly gets a free pass and people pretend he never missed.

When they played for the Pats.

Adam V is more clutch when the chips are down. Take your pick of kicks. Twice in the snow bowl and to win the Pats 1st Super Bowl. Other big games as well.

 

[Triumph]

Both of them kicked with Brady.

Gostkowski hits them longer and more accurately in spite of the fact that AV has played many, many more of his games indoors.

I fear that Gostowski will cost the Pats someday.

I never thought that with Adam V.

 

[1960Pats]

I fear that Gostowski will cost the Pats someday.

I never thought that with Adam V.

The numbers don't lie though, for both length and accuracy.

In the last game that AV played he missed a short FG for the Indiots vs the Chiefs.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

When they played for the Pats.

Adam V is more clutch when the chips are down. Take your pick of kicks. Twice in the snow bowl and to win the Pats 1st Super Bowl. Other big games as well.

Vinatieri wasn't perfect on game winning kicks, and Gostkowski hasn't had the opportunity to kick those big kicks because the games just haven't worked out that way; the average margin of Pats games in 2001 to 2005 was 5.9 points, versus 10 points under Gostkowski (both numbers include playoff games).

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don’t know how many times I need to make this point:

A kicker who goes 0/3 on extra points and 1/1 on field goals has an equal value to a kicker who goes 3/3 on extra points and 0/1 on field goals (provided all distances were the same.)

The Patriots almost lost SB38 when Vinatieri missed two field goals - that’s 6 points missed. Yet people are more hellbent on Gostkowski’s extra point (33-yard distance) miss against Denver. That’s 1 point missed.

 

[Deus Irae]

If people want to continue to insist that Gost has been a problem compared to Adam, in the face of all the evidence showing he hasn't, that's a matter for their teachers and therapists. Because the only evidence that could possibly counter the actual data would be BB coming out and saying that he's had to coddle and avoid Gost due to a lack of trust. And, frankly, while we don't know the why of it, it's possible that Brady having to talk BB into that last FG against the Rams was just that. But, since we don't know, we have to go with the currently certain evidence. And that evidence has Gost as the better kicker in the regular season and the better kicker in the playoffs.

So, until and unless BB comes out with his opinion, the numbers have already told the tape about Gost v. Adam to date, and Gost is the winner.

 

[italian pat patriot]

But the 2001 snow field goal was simply legendary

Impossible to forget...always on my mind...legendary is the correct way to describe it...i agree

 

[ctpatsfan77]

You focus on one part that went wrong in those games but completely invert the basic idea of a team sport by assigning blame to one person more than others who made similar mistakes. Ghost has made more clutch kicks that he missed in his career. He has been one of the best and most consistent kickers in league history. And, yet, here we are cherry picking his misses in games that didn't work out for many other reasons.

One other thing worth noting: since winning the job in 2006, Gostkowski has never faced serious competition for his job. The closest they've come was keeping Shayne Graham around in 2011 to make sure Gostkowski was healthy.