Adam Vinatieri, Stephen Gostkowski, and "clutchness"

[aluminum seats]

They’re both terrific. Ghost hasn’t had as many huge moments it seems—that Giants kick was very memorable. Still wish Bill had let him kick in ‘07.

 

[bormio]

People have forgotten most of Vinatieri’s misses. I swear some people think he never missed a kick. But that snow game ... that was effing magical.

 

[brdmaverick]

It's when SG has missed. Arizona a FG as long as the old XP lost the game. Denver 2015 AFFCG he hits that XP and that game would have gone to OT. 2016 SB just when they start a comeback he missed an XP which was the lowest point of that game for me. He was lucky to get bailed out. 2017 SB missed FG and XP. 2018 SB missed a FG.

All of these were at important parts of the game.

I'll put a positive spin on the 2015 miss in Denver.

If he was going to miss an XP in Denver, at least it was THAT one (not the last drive) where the Pats knew they had to go for two at the end of the game (and had a chance to tie it).

Could you imagine if Gronk scores that beastly last TD, we all celebrate as if the game is tied, and then Gost misses the XP after THAT TD? That would have been more demoralizing.

 

[brdmaverick]

The tap dancing people do to try to make AV a better kicker than SG is funny. And it always ends up being a "clutch" discussion. Then when its show that SG was just as clutch if not more than AV, the tap dancing starts again.

Right it's all about perspective.....the Pats title run STARTED with two legendary kicks from AV when there were no expectations. It was a pleasant surprise that would prevent people from getting mad at AV no matter what happened after that.

Then you bring in Gost with those high expectations from Adam's shadow. Naturally every kick would be highly scrutinized and we would tell ourselves "Adam would have made that".

 

[brdmaverick]

People have forgotten most of Vinatieri’s misses. I swear some people think he never missed a kick. But that snow game ... that was effing magical.

And to think that he had to go 5/5 in a regular season game against Jax to save his job in 96.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

The AV and SG debate is pointless. They are both outstanding kickers, but AV is more fondly remembered due to the kicks he had.

For the record, the point here is not to say that SG > AV, but merely that people who want Gostkowski gone aren't necessarily considering all the data.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Problems that fans of SD, Chi, and Cleveland ( and many other cities) can only dream about........

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Biggest difference is I can think of a half dozen instances the Pats did something else besides let Gostkowski try a 43+ yarder. So the stats you showed mask the avg yardage tried. They only use Ghost for sure thing situations. They go for it on 4th or other things with Gostkowski.

 

[bormio]

Biggest difference is I can think of a half dozen instances the Pats did something else besides let Gostkowski try a 43+ yarder. So the stats you showed mask the avg yardage tried. They only use Ghost for sure thing situations. They go for it on 4th or other things with Gostkowski.

Pats go for it on 4th and 3-4 now in situations because they are confident in the ability to convert - they are trying for a knockout punch. Also the game is different than 15 years ago - settling for 3 less desirable now. If they did not believe in Ghost hitting a 45 yarder - there would be a different kicker in NE.

 

[Bruins29]

Biggest difference is I can think of a half dozen instances the Pats did something else besides let Gostkowski try a 43+ yarder. So the stats you showed mask the avg yardage tried. They only use Ghost for sure thing situations. They go for it on 4th or other things with Gostkowski.

As stated by bormio. Its a different game now that greatly favors the offense. Plus perhaps BB has more faith in Brady now.

So that is not a fair statement.

 

[Deus Irae]

Pats go for it on 4th and 3-4 now in situations because they are confident in the ability to convert - they are trying for a knockout punch. Also the game is different than 15 years ago - settling for 3 less desirable now. If they did not believe in Ghost hitting a 45 yarder - there would be a different kicker in NE.

As stated by bormio. Its a different game now that greatly favors the offense. Plus perhaps BB has more faith in Brady now.

So that is not a fair statement.

We just had a Super Bowl where the QB talked the coach into going for the field goal over the attempted 4th down, in what was obviously a high pressure situation. The kicker made the kick.

Yet, for some reason, we've still got people banging on the anti-Gost drum. It's ridiculous. I'm all for higher standards for better teams, but at some point you've got to accept that better is not the same as perfect, and that having higher standards cannot be the same as demanding constant perfection.

 

[primetime]

Biggest difference is I can think of a half dozen instances the Pats did something else besides let Gostkowski try a 43+ yarder. So the stats you showed mask the avg yardage tried. They only use Ghost for sure thing situations. They go for it on 4th or other things with Gostkowski.

I remember the exact same thing with Vinatieri. Nobody really considered him to have reliable 50 yard range before he moved full time to a dome. The truth is that 43 yards is actually the tipping point at which kicking becomes a losing proposition.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

Kicking in the playoffs:

Vinatieri: 56-69 (81.2%)
Gostkowski: 39-44 (88.6%)

Where people have some kind of point is in the XP area, though even there it's misleading. Gost has missed 4 (88-92 for 95.7% versus Vinatieri at 7071 for 98.6%), but all of Gost's misses have been post 2014 rules changes, and that's when Viniatieri's miss came, as well.

Post 2014 playoff XP:

Viniatieri: 4-5 (80%)
Gostkowski: 31-35 (88.6%)

good but not great

 

[bormio]

I think some think if THEY are nervous before a FG, we should have a new kicker. Heck, I am nervous before every FG, no matter who is kicking. But I am not coaching the Patriots.

 

[Kdo5]

I don't recall Gostkowski being in many high leverage FG attempts given his amount of time in the league. I'm talking FG's at the end that are win or lose plays, the truly clutch ones.

I only have two in mind the kick against the Giants and 15 and the Super Bowl kick which was clutch but again it wasn't a Vinatieri last second kick to decide it.

Gostkowski seems to hit the high leverage ones but he has been in so few high leverage situations I'm not sure how clutch he really is.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

We just had a Super Bowl where the QB talked the coach into going for the field goal over the attempted 4th down, in what was obviously a high pressure situation. The kicker made the kick.

Yet, for some reason, we've still got people banging on the anti-Gost drum. It's ridiculous. I'm all for higher standards for better teams, but at some point you've got to accept that better is not the same as perfect, and that having higher standards cannot be the same as demanding constant perfection.

Yeah, he made it and all, but it wasn't dead center and didn't have enough distance that he would have made it from 75 yards. So it's simply not good enough.

 

[Pat the Pats Fan]

Hey, they're both great kickers. But, and this is not a knock on SG...

...few kickers can claim this kind of moment.

You know it’s an amazing kick, into the snow, into the wind....I couldn’t even see the ball go through, had to read the refs and the players reaction.....greatest kick EVER!!!,

 

[patfanken]

To the people who want to replace Gotskowski. Be careful what you wish for.

It boggles my mind why you would be so vehement in calling for his successor, when you have NO idea who that successor is going to be! So if its someone not named Zureline or Tucker, I'll pass....and so should YOU!

Trusting such an important aspect of the game to a question mark just to lower a cap number is lunacy.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Hey, they're both great kickers. But, and this is not a knock on SG...

...few kickers can claim this kind of moment.

You ask any kicker, past or present who is alive today, they will tell you that was the greatest kick ever made in NFL history.

 

[wizwor]

If I'm talking about 'clutchness', I am thinking about walk off kicks -- kicks that won games. The bigger the game, the more clutchy. I do not have the data, but I suspect AV wins that comparison.

Just a data point. One of the things that has been said about Gostkowski is his relative lack of "clutchness" and "signature kicks" (as a result of the Patriots offense going into overdrive).

But if you look at kicks in the fourth quarter and OT, in one-score games (Pats leading or trailing by 8 or less):

• Vinatieri, career: 79/92, or 85.9%
• Vinatieri, with NE: 38/46, or 82.6%
• Vinatieri, with Brady as starter: 25/27, or 92.6%
• Gostkowski: 44/46, or 95.7%