AD taking some ILB snaps in nickel situations

[JSn]

Woods is starting to show up. I think he's unquestionably looking better than last year and perhaps he's the next Pat to have the lights come on full blast. Could have watched more of him in that pre-season game and I suspect he'll be in full force this weekend when he hits the field.

 

[Julius]

Two words: Pierre Woods.

Exactly why should he be riding the bench? He can get after the quaterback pretty good himself. Wood's gets no respect on this forum.

 

[wdkantro2]

Exactly why should he be riding the bench? He can get after the quaterback pretty good himself. Wood's gets no respect on this forum.

Because everyone gets easily excited about an early draft pick from a big school like Crable instead of a guy who has been developing slowly on special teams over the past few years. But there is little doubt Woods is ready to contribute on this defense come the regular season. Hell, he played some legitimate snaps during the Super Bowl even. Granted, he failed to recover that fumble, but the staff clearly has confidence in him and wants to find as many ways as possible to get him on the field.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

There are four areas of performance to consider for each Linebacker:
On a scale of 1-5...

          [b] [u]Run Defense  Pass Rush  Coverage  Special Teams[/u][/b]
Bruschi          3          3         2            2
[u][b]Vrabel           4.5        4         3            3.5[/b][/u]
Thomas           3          4         3.5          4.5
[u][b]Mayo             1          1         1            1[/b][/u]
Woods            1          1         1            4
[u][b]Hobson           1          1         1            1[/b][/u]
Guyton           1          1         1            1
[u][b]Crable           1          1         1            1[/b][/u]
Redd             0          0         0            0
[u][b]Alexander        1          0         2            3[/b][/u]
Izzo             1          0         2            3
[u][b]Ruud             0          0         0            0[/b][/u]

0 - unevaluated
1 - a warm body with prior experience (college/pro) that needs to fit into the Patriots' system.
2 - NFL average
3 - starter
4 - impact player
5 - All-Pro

Midseason projection

   [b]        [u]Run Defense  Pass Rush  Coverage  Special Teams[/u][/b]
Bruschi          3          3         2            2
[u][b]Vrabel           4.5        4         3            3.5[/b][/u]
Thomas           3          4         3.5          4.5
[u][b]Mayo             3          3         3            3[/b][/u]
Woods            3          2         2            4
[u][b]Hobson           1          1         1            1[/b][/u]
Guyton           2          1         2            4
[u][b]Crable           1          1         1            3[/b][/u]
Redd             0          0         0            0
[u][b]Alexander        1          0         2            3[/b][/u]
Izzo             1          0         2            3
[u][b]Ruud             0          0         0            0[/b][/u]

In game one of preseason Mayo and Guyton showed me something:
1. They're rookies.
2. They're fast.
3. They need to add 10 pounds of muscle.
4. They need to improve their hand use.
5. They have a lot to learn.
6. They could both be starters together by the end of the season if they work hard.

Mayo looks slated to start the season alongside Bru, but Guyton looks to make the roster and will get to take game reps fairly soon.

Crable and Redd showed me something:
1. They're rookies.
2. They're fast.
3. They need to add 10-20 pounds of muscle.
4. They need to improve their hand use.
5. They have a lot to learn.
6. Neither has enough sand in their pants for more than Special Teams and clean-up time.

 

[BionicPatriot]

Guyton starting at the end of the season? That would make him quite the steal. I think it's fine. AD is very versatile, and as others have said this is why Pierre Woods is so important to this team. If he can play an effective OLB, this defense could be flat out disgusting.

 

[Sicilian]

It was only the first preseason game, but based on what I saw against the Ravens, Woods is going to be huge this season. Not in a starters role (barring injury), but his depth on the outside allows us to configure the linebackers for any situation.

Crable looked good too, but I'm reserving judgment until I see him some more. If Woods had looked BAD and Crable had the game he did, then I might think differently. But they both had solid efforts and Woods has more experience, so he gets the edge hands down.

My question is, did we see much of Mayo in coverage? I'm sure he had to play some, and I haven't broken down the game play by play, but I didn't notice anytime when he had to do so. Perhaps it's good that I didn't notice, means he probably stuck his man.

If he didn't play much in coverage, and if perhaps that's a weaker part of his game in his early career, then it makes sense to have AD ready in the middle for passing situations, as our only other option is Bruschi and he's lost a step in that scenario.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Midseason projection

   [B]       [U]Run Defense  Pass Rush  Coverage  Special Teams[/U][/B]
Bruschi          3          3         2            2
[U][B]Vrabel           4.5        4         3            3.5[/B][/U]
Thomas           3          4         3.5          4.5
[U][B]Mayo             3          3         3            3[/B][/U]
Woods            3          2         2            4
[U][B]Hobson           1          1         1            1[/B][/U]
Guyton           2          1         2            4
[U][B]Crable           1          1         1            3[/B][/U]
Redd             0          0         0            0
[U][B]Alexander        1          0         2            3[/B][/U]
Izzo             1          0         2            3
[U][B]Ruud             0          0         0            0[/B][/U]

In game one of preseason Mayo and Guyton showed me something:
1. They're rookies.
2. They're fast.
3. They need to add 10 pounds of muscle.
4. They need to improve their hand use.
5. They have a lot to learn.
6. They could both be starters together by the end of the season if they work hard.

Mayo looks slated to start the season alongside Bru, but Guyton looks to make the roster and will get to take game reps fairly soon.

Crable and Redd showed me something:
1. They're rookies.
2. They're fast.
3. They need to add 10-20 pounds of muscle.
4. They need to improve their hand use.
5. They have a lot to learn.
6. Neither has enough sand in their pants for more than Special Teams and clean-up time.

I would raise your expectations for The Crab as a situational pass rusher. He practises well consistently in training camp and showed the results of that last Thursday.

Accepting your chart as rated, why keep Hobson? He's gone next year. Keep Guyton instead. Fits the mold of a cap inexpensive developmental player with upside potential who plays STs. AND, he's fast. Team speed has been an issue as the D ages.

 

[dryheat44]

Wow. Besides BoR's damning chart, not a mention of Victor Hobson. Very telling. It's entirely possible that like Chad Brown, he can't play inside. However, he's certainly a competent OLB in the event that AD has to move inside for any length of time.

Of course, I expect Seau to sign once he's healthy enough.

 

[BradyManny]

There are four areas of performance to consider for each Linebacker:
On a scale of 1-5...

          [b] [u]Run Defense  Pass Rush  Coverage  Special Teams[/u][/b]
Bruschi          3          3         2            2
[u][b]Vrabel           4.5        4         3            3.5[/b][/u]
Thomas           3          4         3.5          4.5
[u][b]Mayo             1          1         1            1[/b][/u]
Woods            1          1         1            4
[u][b]Hobson           1          1         1            1[/b][/u]
Guyton           1          1         1            1
[u][b]Crable           1          1         1            1[/b][/u]
Redd             0          0         0            0
[u][b]Alexander        1          0         2            3[/b][/u]
Izzo             1          0         2            3
[u][b]Ruud             0          0         0            0[/b][/u]

Surprised to not see Thomas get some above average marks on run defense or coverage. I thought he fared well in both regards at SILB last season before moving to OLB.

I'm also hoping Woods' pass rush will at least be at starter level by mid-season. Maybe that's a lot to ask, but he appears to be on a TBC-like progression path, and his pass rush was pretty solid before departing.

 

[BradyManny]

Wow. Besides BoR's damning chart, not a mention of Victor Hobson. Very telling. It's entirely possible that like Chad Brown, he can't play inside. However, he's certainly a competent OLB in the event that AD has to move inside for any length of time.

Of course, I expect Seau to sign once he's healthy enough.

Hobson's reportedly down-camp so far is a bit of a disappointment...There's still plenty of time and maybe I let Reiss get my hopes up too much in the spring, but I was really hoping this guy could contribute at SILB, keep Bruschi fresh/limit Bruschi's reps, etc.

Has Hobson even taken any OLB reps so far at camp? Is he an extra layer of depth at that spot?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

As one disappointed in Hobson and wicked pumped about the rooks at LB, it IS too early to see how a vet adapts to this complex D. Remember that AD, a very smaaht playah had a time learning the D. The next weeks are absolutely critical for those on the bubble. Who 'gets it' and develops further and who falls behind their peers?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Guyton started taking ILB reps alongside Mayo in the 3rd defensive series (1st half) and did not look lost or out of place. Hobson started taking reps late in the third quarter alongside Alexander, he and Guyton alternated series the rest of the game.

I should have put on a disclaimer, that chart is based on one preseason game. I'll probably update it after Sunday's game has been digested. Guyton flat out showed up in every phase, they had him rush once from ILB, they had him in coverage, he showed the same patience Mayo did against the run - he was Mayo's partner for the dehelmeting tackle, Guyton stoned the Ravens 260 pound FB, Laron McClain, at the line to close that hole, Rice bounced it behind Center and was met by Mayo. I do not recall seeing either LB overplay their assignment once, both were disciplined and smart in their game. As for Guyton's ST's game, oo la la!

Guyton is clearly too light (242) to take the pounding consistently, but he also has that speed which allowed him to recover from mistakes or lost ground. He blew up a screen on the other side after he had already dropped into coverage, LeKevin got the tackle, but Guyton made the play. It will take time to build him up, but with Tedy's age showing, Guyton could be taking ILB reps whenever Tommy, Wes, Randy, et. al. give BB a cushion to allow some OJT.

I'm not closing the book on Hobson yet, I saw some good things. He was hampered by playing alongside Alexander and behind reserve DL. I don't know if he can make the transition inside, Guyton sure looks like he can.

 

[PatsFan37]

After one preseason game, I think the consensus may be too high on new guys who have flashed and not high enough on existing guys who have NFL experience. Unless Seau is back on week 1, BB will keep Hobson on the roster, otherwise he has no experienced depth at ILB. There isn't enough depth at OLB to expect Vrabel or Thomas to take extra snaps at ILB.

Hobson is weak in coverage, but I disagree on his rating as a pass rusher. The standard for the pass rush at OLB is much higher, and with his experience at that position where he constantly challenges tackles and guards, Hobson has the moves and experience and strength to easily defeat a RB, the typical blocker assigned to pick up a blitzing ILB. Scooting between the big Patriots DL, he can be very effective.

We haven't seen that because they're not showing that in preseason. Not because it isn't there. In TC, he is one of the toughest blitzing ILBs to stop.

On run defense, once he is comfortable with the system, he has the size and functional strength to be effective. Defeating and shedding blocks takes practice and size, he has both.

He might not be the star we were all hoping for, and he is by no means a lock for a roster spot, but I wouldn't swing the other way and write him off just yet.

Edit: Box and I posted at the same time. I don't think our opinions are all that far off. Obviously, the best case is for Guyton to show so much that he overtakes Hobson, since he has so much greater upside. I'm just wary of expecting a UDFA rookie to be ready for action at one of the NFL's most difficult positions.

 

[14thDragon]

As one disappointed in Hobson and wicked pumped about the rooks at LB, it IS too early to see how a vet adapts to this complex D. Remember that AD, a very smaaht playah had a time learning the D. The next weeks are absolutely critical for those on the bubble. Who 'gets it' and develops further and who falls behind their peers?

I agree. Hobson needs the light to go and do some stepping up. I do not even think he needs to be a stud at SILB. If he can just be a guy to rotate in and the defense doesn't turn into a sieve then it gives a good rotation with Mayo, Bruschi and Hobson.

That is what having AD on the inside, even in practice is a bit worrisome. That would indicate AD is being considered for that inside rotation. It makes some sense with the fact Woods seems to have impressed during camp.

IMHO the optimal number of rotational linebackers would be 6. 3 ILB and 3 OLB. I liked the idea of AD, Vrabes and Woods on the outside with Hobson Brushi and Mayo in the inside. As good as Guyton has looked, I would be nervous with him as a rotational guy for the base defense this year. Same with Crable.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm sorry, but I still think there is a very good chance that Guyton doesn't even make the team other than on the practice squad.

Everyone was just as high on Oscar Lua last preseason. Yes, he had an injury that landed him on IR, but was he injured enough to lose him for the entire year or enough that it was worth IRing him to protect him without taking a roster spot (He was IRed after the last preseason game so he might not have had that bad of an injury at all). He was cut this past offseason without even getting a shot to build on what he did last preseason and win a roster spot. He was a stud last preseason, even playing better than Guyton did in his first game.

I would be a little weary of jumping on the Guyton bandwagon just yet. It seems that every year there is a low round or undrafted rookie that appears to be a stud in the preseason that never makes it to the Patriots 53 man roster (Lua, Patrick Cobbs, etc.). Guyton may buck the trend, but I won't get my hopes up until at least after the 3rd preseason game.

 

[JSn]

Why not 8 rotational LB's?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm sorry, but I still think there is a very good chance that Guyton doesn't even make the team other than on the practice squad.

Everyone was just as high on Oscar Lua last preseason. Yes, he had an injury that landed him on IR, but was he injured enough to lose him for the entire year or enough that it was worth IRing him to protect him without taking a roster spot (He was IRed after the last preseason game so he might not have had that bad of an injury at all). He was cut this past offseason without even getting a shot to build on what he did last preseason and win a roster spot. He was a stud last preseason, even playing better than Guyton did in his first game.

I would be a little weary of jumping on the Guyton bandwagon just yet. It seems that every year there is a low round or undrafted rookie that appears to be a stud in the preseason that never makes it to the Patriots 53 man roster (Lua, Patrick Cobbs, etc.). Guyton may buck the trend, but I won't get my hopes up until at least after the 3rd preseason game.

Go research my remarks on Lua, I was excoriated by Lua fans for rating Mays the better ILB. Lua is where I expected him to be, Guyton is an entirely different player from Lua. I too want to see Guyton's reps in the next few games, the same way I want to see Mayo's reps - they've got a lot of ground to cover to play in the NFL and those reps will tell a tale of committment.

 

[Nunchucks]

I think this could mean that Bruschi will see playing time reduced.

 

[Rob0729]

Go research my remarks on Lua, I was excoriated by Lua fans for rating Mays the better ILB. Lua is where I expected him to be, Guyton is an entirely different player from Lua. I too want to see Guyton's reps in the next few games, the same way I want to see Mayo's reps - they've got a lot of ground to cover to play in the NFL and those reps will tell a tale of committment.

It was still one game. You were right about Lua, but we don't know yet about Guyton. I just don't get too excited either way based on one preseason game about any player. Guyton could be closer to a David Givens type of player (a guy who people gave little shot of making the team at all, but ended up being a solid starter) than a Lua or Patrick Cobbs, but I guess we will have to see.

I hope you are right (well about Guyton, not Hobson) since I want to see the team get younger and better at the LB spot and not have to worry every year if this is the year that age catches up to the defense.

 

[Rob0729]

I think this could mean that Bruschi will see playing time reduced.

I expect Bruschi's playing time to get reduced no matter who makes the team. I think he has become a liability in coverage. He would be best served by being a situational player.