A question on my mind virtually every day [Would BB draft Maye]

[Rob0729]

???
Uh, you're pulling out the Belichick-defender card against RainMaker? Really?

Did you not watch the Dynasty?

What did Belichick do that you would deem petty? (Please dont tell me it's banning Guerrero).

Burying Hoyer for questioning Patricia.
Banning Patriots scouting staff at the detriment of his own players at UNC facilities.
Not speaking to his starting QB because he went to college coach for advice.
Starting and benching Mac over and over again to destroy his confidence and probably to get back at the Krafts.
Not backing Mac when he was made a starter again after he returned from injury to fuel a QB controversy.
Reports were he gave away Garoppolo to the 49ers because he was upset that Kraft told him to trade him and keep Brady.
Benching Malcolm Butler in the Super Bowl.

Do you need me to go on?

 

[PatsFan2]

Burying Hoyer for questioning Patricia.
Banning Patriots scouting staff at the detriment of his own players at UNC facilities.
Not speaking to his starting QB because he went to college coach for advice.
Starting and benching Mac over and over again to destroy his confidence and probably to get back at the Krafts.
Not backing Mac when he was made a starter again after he returned from injury to fuel a QB controversy.
Reports were he gave away Garoppolo to the 49ers because he was upset that Kraft told him to trade him and keep Brady.
Benching Malcolm Butler in the Super Bowl.

Do you need me to go on?

 

[TheRainMaker]

You have no idea if Kraft was waiting to fire Belichick in 2001. That is pure speculation without anything to back it. Kraft and Belichick had a good relationship back then and I doubt he would have been quick to pull the plug on Belichick after spending a first round pick to get Belichick.

The documentary ended the long speculation we've had on this board. Bob said he was upset Bill kept Bledsoe on the bench in favor of Brady going into the Rams game. Blamed BB for the loss. He also said he told Bill "it better work" regarding his decision to roll with Brady the rest of the season. Scott Pioli also admitted that their jobs were on the line following the 5-13 start, especially after Bledsoe got hurt. Bill was absolutely going to get fired after the 2001 season had Brady flamed out.

 

[Rob0729]

I remember very clearly that there were whispers about it at the time, especially given Drew's contract and his history. Had Brady crashed and burned, and after that 5-11 season, I don't know how Kraft would have reacted, especially given how the local media had already questioned Belichick's future that offseason and the talk after that ugly loss to begin the 2001 season.

Drew getting hurt quieted that and bought him time, but had Drew been cleared and Belichick had kept him on the bench, if Brady had finished out the year with the team ending up 7-9 or 8-8, it's very possible Kraft might have pulled the trigger because it's not like Belichick had endeared himself to the fans, and the majority of fans were Bledsoe fans. That really only changed when Brady started winning.

If Brady had gone .500, I think enough of them would have sided with Bledsoe and been frustrated that Belichick didn't play him. Kraft likely would have heard that, and probably agreed with it, and it might have cost Belichick his job.

We saw it this past season. He listens to the outside noise, and there were plenty of people who didn't want him to hire Bill to begin with, so it wouldn't have shocked me if he second-guessed it and tried to correct it by moving on from him sooner rather than later.

Of course if the Pats had another disaster season, there was a good chance he could have been fired. But they were two games into the season when Bledsoe went down. I doubt Kraft was ready to dump Belichick at that point.

There were a lot of people in the media who hated Belichick and would say stuff about him. Kevin Mannix and his "duplicitous pond scum" comment and Ron Borges took Bledsoe's side on the benching and would write things and go on TV and radio and say things about Belichick. So it is hard to believe anything about that time because there was so much anti-Belichick BS being spread around.

 

[Ian]

Benching Malcolm Butler in the Super Bowl.

Do you need me to go on?

I'll forever be annoyed with that one. The talk about him not being on the same page or whatever that week is one thing, but the guy was active, and his players were gassed late and needed one stop to win the game. That one wasn't in "the best interest of the team" that day. And while Butler must have been in the wrong given that he's never pointed a finger on it, I would have rather have seen him cut that offseason than on the bench that day. Especially when you take into account Brady became the answer to a trivia question when it comes to the only player to throw for 500+ yards in a Super Bowl in a losing effort. Incredibly frustrating.

 

[Rob0729]

The documentary ended the long speculation we've had on this board. Bob said he was upset Bill kept Bledsoe on the bench in favor of Brady going into the Rams game. Blamed BB for the loss. He also said he told Bill "it better work" regarding his decision to roll with Brady the rest of the season. Scott Pioli also admitted that their jobs were on the line following the 5-13 start, especially after Bledsoe got hurt. Bill was absolutely going to get fired after the 2001 season had Brady flamed out.

So you think Kraft would have fired Belichick if he lost the Super Bowl with Brady? Cmon!

And their jobs were on the line if they had another 5-11 season. That was what Pioli was saying. Of course you have two disaster seasons in a row, any head coach is in danger of being fired. Vrabel if he came in and the Pats went 5-12 this and 5-12 next year, he would be fired too. You are taking what Pioli said out of context. There were no plans to fire Belichick in 2001.

 

[Ian]

Of course if the Pats had another disaster season, there was a good chance he could have been fired. But they were two games into the season when Bledsoe went down. I doubt Kraft was ready to dump Belichick at that point.

There were a lot of people in the media who hated Belichick and would say stuff about him. Kevin Mannix and his "duplicitous pond scum" comment and Ron Borges took Bledsoe's side on the benching and would write things and go on TV and radio and say things about Belichick. So it is hard to believe anything about that time because there was so much anti-Belichick BS being spread around.

Definitely not after two weeks, but again, if Bledsoe had stayed benched after being cleared and the outcome didn't go his way, I don't think he survives.

And I remember distinctly watching the heated exchange Borges had with Belichick over it (the team streamed them even back then), and there were whispers Kraft certainly wasn't pleased. That was an incredibly tense time, and I don't think Kraft was 100% in his corner. My guess is that if they had gone on to have a significant losing streak, it might have been over before the season even ended.

 

[signbabybrady]

Any story SBB doesn’t like (and he doesn’t like any story which makes his hero look bad) he just labels unfounded fake news.

SBB literally - and I swear I am not making this up - said a story about Belichick not letting Patriots scouts at UNC practices was fake news. Then Belichick himself admitted the story was true and SBB still to this very day calls it fake news.

Fake news doesn't only mean untrue it's also used to describe stories that are specifically put out due to bias and for purpose of slander.

 

[Rob0729]

Definitely not after two weeks, but again, if Bledsoe had stayed benched and the outcome didn't go his way, I don't think he survives.

And I remember distinctly watching the heated exchange Borges had with Belichick over it (the team streamed them even back then), and there were whispers Kraft certainly wasn't pleased. That was an incredibly tense time, and I don't think Kraft was 100% in his corner. My guess is that if they had gone on to have a significant losing streak, it might have been over before the season even ended.

Yes, if Belichick chose to bench Bledsoe and Brady was a disaster, it would have been the end of Belichick. I think most owners would have fired him in that situation. And Kraft was close to Bledsoe. So I can see him skeptical about the move. But the team was responding to Brady and winning. So I am betting Kraft was ok with giving Belichick the leeway to make the decision even if he wasn't happy with it. It isn't unusual to go with the hot hand even if the guy with the hot hand got the job due to injury.

But that is far different than Kraft already ready to pull the plug week two into that season. I seriously doubt Kraft was ready to fire Belichick in September of 2001.

 

[signbabybrady]

What's unfounded about it? Do you know their sources? Just because a report comes out two years later doesn't mean the facts are incorrect.

I didn't see any sources so that makes it unfounded to any one except the writer. I actually like Breer but sports reporting is a cesspool mostly geared around getting clicks and attention and not the truth. Someone probably told him the story and there's probably enough truth that he was able to find a second source doesn't mean they couldn't exaggerate the facts to make them look better in this case saying it was 3 first rounders but referencing but not revealing the pick swaps is a little dubious. Maybe they wanted our 2 back in the deal we have no clue.

If we even believe the deal was offered what the parameters were did not satisfy Mayo so it probably wasn't as good as being reported. And whoever leaked it waited until Maye looked good so clearly he has an agenda and not being entirely forthcoming.

 

[TheRainMaker]

So you think Kraft would have fired Belichick if he lost the Super Bowl with Brady? Cmon!

You're not understanding what I'm saying. "Flaming out" means Brady would've been awful and the Pats didn't even make the playoffs. On a side note, Brady has said that had he lost the game against the Raiders that Bledsoe was going to get his job back the following season.

And their jobs were on the line if they had another 5-11 season. That was what Pioli was saying. Of course you have two disaster seasons in a row, any head coach is in danger of being fired. Vrabel if he came in and the Pats went 5-12 this and 5-12 next year, he would be fired too. You are taking what Pioli said out of context. There were no plans to fire Belichick in 2001.

The entire reason Bob fired Pete Carroll was because he thought the Pats underachieved, but it was really because of Bob's bad decisions leading up to that point such as meddling with Parcells and underestimating Curtis Martin's ability to leave as a restricted FA. Bob got caught with his pants down and his 2-4 record against he Jets was embarrassing. In fact, one of those wins was against a former punter (Tom Tupa) where they barely escaped a loss. The loss on MNF against a former special teamer in Ray Lucas was the nail in the coffin for Carroll.

Fast forward to 2000, BB was hired to take this team to where it needed to go only for it to go backwards. Bill completely stripped the roster that season and losing the 1st round pick to the Jets didn't help. Going into 2001, it was the "least talented team" in the league. Had the Pats not made the playoffs with Bledsoe or Brady, BB was absolutely getting fired.

 

[Ian]

Yes, if Belichick chose to bench Bledsoe and Brady was a disaster, it would have been the end of Belichick. I think most owners would have fired him in that situation. And Kraft was close to Bledsoe. So I can see him skeptical about the move. But the team was responding to Brady and winning. So I am betting Kraft was ok with giving Belichick the leeway to make the decision even if he wasn't happy with it. It isn't unusual to go with the hot hand even if the guy with the hot hand got the job due to injury.

But that is far different than Kraft already ready to pull the plug week two into that season. I seriously doubt Kraft was ready to fire Belichick in September of 2001.

I think doubt had started to creep in, especially after that opening day loss. The loss the next week against the Jets was also ugly, and they grossly underperformed (they didn't even score a TD that day) which at 0-2, and looking as bad as they had at the end of 2000, I remember one of the writers I talked to back then inferring that there was some doubt. The turning point was obviously the next week when they put up 44 at home against Indy, and then won again in front of the fans in OT two weeks later. That was when some of it quieted and it felt like there would be some patience after seeing the way Brady was playing.

 

[Rob0729]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. "Flaming out" means Brady would've been awful and the Pats didn't even make the playoffs. On a side note, Brady has said that had he lost the game against the Raiders that Bledsoe was going to get his job back the following season.

The entire reason Bob fired Pete Carroll was because he thought the Pats underachieved, but it was really because of Bob's bad decisions leading up to that point such as meddling with Parcells and underestimating Curtis Martin's ability to leave as a restricted FA. Bob got caught with his pants down and his 2-4 record against he Jets was embarrassing. In fact, one of those wins was against a former punter (Tom Tupa) who they barely escaped a loss. The loss on MNF against a former special teamer in Ray Lucas was the nail in the coffin for Carroll.

Fast forward to 2000, BB was hired to take this team to where it needed to go only for it to go backwards. Bill completely stripped the roster that season and losing the 1st round pick to the Jets didn't help. Going into 2001, it was the "least talented team" in the league. Had the Pats not made the playoffs with Bledsoe or Brady, BB was absolutely getting fired.

So you are saying that Kraft is like any other owner who after his new coach has two disastrous seasons would decide to move on? The Patriots were worse in 2000 than they were under Carroll in 1999. And if they didn't show any sign of improvement in 2001, most owners including Kraft would decided they made a mistake and moved on.

And Kraft fired Carroll because he lost the team. There was no coming back from that. Once players "went up the back stairs" to Bobby Grier's office to complain about Carroll, Carroll was done. You cannot have a head coach who the players don't respect. Many players hated Belichick, but only a small handful in 20 years of the dynasty ever not respected him. And because they were a small handful, they were easily jettisoned from the team without losing the whole team.

And Kraft addressed meddling with Parcells and admitted he made a mistake and claimed he didn't do it with Belichick. If was meddling with Belichick as much as people think, he would have never let Belichick make Patricia the OC. Kraft didn't hide the fact he thought it was a horrible idea and that he gave Belichick the leeway to do it.

 

[Rob0729]

I think doubt had started to creep in, especially after that opening day loss. The loss the next week against the Jets was also ugly, and they grossly underperformed (they didn't even score a TD that day) which at 0-2, and looking as bad as they had at the end of 2000, I remember one of the writers I talked to back then inferring that there was some doubt. The turning point was obviously the next week when they put up 44 at home against Indy, and then won again in front of the fans in OT two weeks later. That was when some of it quieted and it felt like there would be some patience after seeing the way Brady was playing.

I am sure the Terry Glenn thing caused concern too. But that doesn't mean Kraft was anywhere ready to fire Belichick.

But that first game wasn't a blowout. The Pats lost 23-17 and the Pats got the ball back with 1:54 left in the game with what could have been the game winning drive. They didn't get it because Bledsoe was sacked for seven yards and threw three incompletion (one was actually ruled a catch by Bert Emmanuel, but overturned in replay. And I am not sure that Kraft would have blamed Belichick for the loss against the Jets when Drew went down and it was a 10-3 game.

 

[Ian]

I am sure the Terry Glenn thing caused concern too. But that doesn't mean Kraft was anywhere ready to fire Belichick.

But that first game wasn't a blowout. The Pats lost 23-17 and the Pats got the ball back with 1:54 left in the game with what could have been the game winning drive. They didn't get it because Bledsoe was sacked for seven yards and threw three incompletion (one was actually ruled a catch by Bert Emmanuel, but overturned in replay. And I am not sure that Kraft would have blamed Belichick for the loss against the Jets when Drew went down and it was a 10-3 game.

I can tell you for a fact that there was a deep concern there, especially after they looked that bad in what was already an emotional week 2. Fans were frustrated, and Bledsoe's injury only made it worse. Again, while I agree that I don't think he would have been fired after two weeks, the doubt absolutely started to set in. If that 3-1 stretch hadn't happened and it had been 0-4, it would have probably gotten ugly.

 

[Rob0729]

I can tell you for a fact that there was a deep concern there, especially after they looked that bad in what was already an emotional week 2. Fans were frustrated, and Bledsoe's injury only made it worse. Again, while I agree that I don't think he would have been fired after two weeks, the doubt absolutely started to set in. If that 3-1 stretch hadn't happened and it had been 0-4, it would have probably gotten ugly.

But again, that would be the case with almost any head coach in his second year with the team and owner.

 

[upstater1]

Belichick also stopped talking to Mac after he went to Saban for advice on how to handle the horrible situation he was in. Mac really did nothing wrong by seeking advice. Who knows what he said, but seeking advice is nothing wrong. I am sure Brady sought advise outside the organization many times when he was having issues with Belichick or the team. I am sure most players do. Don't forget he basically buried Hoyer because Hoyer immediately started to question Patricia and his offense.

I am sorry I don't see Belichick as this victim with everyone trying to undermine him. I see him more of an authoritarian who could not handle the owner's son (who happens to be the president of the team) telling him what to do or his players and coaches not being 100% loyal to him. I am sure it wasn't 100% wrong on either side, but seeing Belichick at UNC shows me that he is anything but a victim of forces trying to undermine him. He creates his own drama.

When you undercut the coach and create mutiny in the locker room, bad results will tend to happen.

Dallas Cowboys fans have been living it.

Even a guy that didn't like Belichick much, Amendola, recognized how bad it is when the players know the coach is not in control, and that was in regard to the Guerrero situation.

How many times does it have to be proven to you that we have an incredible meddler owner? It happened with parcells, he did it to Carroll, he's done it to the greatest coach of all time.

He was prepared to do it in 2001!

The guy meddles. He can't stop himself.

 

[upstater1]

Burying Hoyer for questioning Patricia.
Banning Patriots scouting staff at the detriment of his own players at UNC facilities.
Not speaking to his starting QB because he went to college coach for advice.
Starting and benching Mac over and over again to destroy his confidence and probably to get back at the Krafts.
Not backing Mac when he was made a starter again after he returned from injury to fuel a QB controversy.
Reports were he gave away Garoppolo to the 49ers because he was upset that Kraft told him to trade him and keep Brady.
Benching Malcolm Butler in the Super Bowl.

Do you need me to go on?

You realize a lot of this stuff is just made up and has no truth to it? Like the banning of the Patriots scouts. Uh-- ALL NFL scouts are banned from UNC practices.

Mac was inept. Bill O'Brien is on record as Mac just never listening to coaches. You're blaming Mac's consistent gutless and poor play on Belichick, which is wild.

"Reports on Garoppolo trade." Debunked over and over again. The GM of the 49ers debunked those.

But you guys will twist things until kingdom come.

None of what you wrote is an example of Belichick being petty, and a lot of it is just plain untrue.

 

[Ian]

You realize a lot of this stuff is just made up and has no truth to it? Like the banning of the Patriots scouts. Uh-- ALL NFL scouts are banned from UNC practices.

Bill said outright during a press conference something to the effect of "It's clear I'm not welcome there at their facility. So they're not welcome at ours." There was definitely some truth to that one, otherwise he wouldn't have made that comment.

Mac was inept. Bill O'Brien is on record as Mac just never listening to coaches. You're blaming Mac's consistent gutless and poor play on Belichick, which is wild.

O'Brien losing it that time with Mac sort of confirms that. I watched that again recently, and I think Mac mouthed something along the lines of "I've got it," and that only made O'Brien more furious. I was someone who certainly gave him the benefit of the doubt, but he was definitely his own worst enemy.

 

[Rob0729]

When you undercut the coach and create mutiny in the locker room, bad results will tend to happen.

Dallas Cowboys fans have been living it.

Even a guy that didn't like Belichick much, Amendola, recognized how bad it is when the players know the coach is not in control, and that was in regard to the Guerrero situation.

How many times does it have to be proven to you that we have an incredible meddler owner? It happened with parcells, he did it to Carroll, he's done it to the greatest coach of all time.

He was prepared to do it in 2001!

The guy meddles. He can't stop himself.

There is no evidence Kraft did it with Carroll. Bobby Grier meddled with Carroll, not Kraft.

And Kraft admitted he was wrong with Parcells and claimed he would be hands off.

And Belichick had no problem with Guerrero until he started working with clients other than Brady. That was a fight between Brady and Belichick, not Kraft.

And sometime Kraft meddling saves the team. I don't know if you heard this, but Belichick had the ridiculous idea of making Matt Patricia the OC and Joe Judge the QB coach in Mac Jones' crucial second year, but Kraft said no way. Imagine if Kraft didn't meddle there. Imagine Patricia calling plays for this offense? Oh wait!

Again, Patricia and Judge shows you that Kraft meddling is proof that the allegations are overstated. Kraft hated the idea and didn't stop it.