7 Players - Same Similar Situation

[mgteich]

To have Wilson and Ebner as our backup safeties simply asks for disaster, or presumes that the real backups safeties are mislabeled as corners on the depth chart. Wilson is raw and needs development. Ebner had THREE SNAPS at safety last year. If he is to make the team, he has to beat out guys like White and Koutouvides as a STer. We still NEED a fourth safety. You might recall that we had open auditions throughout the season for anyone who could suit up at safety. Belichick will not put himself in that position again.

I'd like to have McCourty, Dowling, Arrington, Dennard, Moore at CB and Chung, Gregory, Wilson and Ebner at S. The 4th safety will not see the field often except on special teams, where Ebner is a demon by all accounts, he's young at the position too, and has a lot of potential to develop into a good safety, I could easily see him being the next Steve Tasker.

 

[Ring 6]

To have Wilson and Ebner as our backup safeties simply asks for disaster, or presumes that the real backups safeties are mislabeled as corners on the depth chart. Wilson is raw and needs development. Ebner had THREE SNAPS at safety last year. If he is to make the team, he has to beat out guys like White and Koutouvides as a STer. We still NEED a fourth safety. You might recall that we had open auditions throughout the season for anyone who could suit up at safety. Belichick will not put himself in that position again.

Clearly you hate the Wilson draft pick. But how do you call a guy who played 50 college games and started 38 of them, raw?

Are you saying having Brown, Barrett, Ihedigbo or some other stiff as our backup safeties is a success?

 

[TyronePoole]

is Ihedigbo going to be a significant upgrade over having to swing a CB to Safety? If it's going to be someone totally mediocre occupying that fourth spot I'd rather have it be a raw talent or a mediocre player who can at least play 2 positions if needed.

 

[Marqui]

is Ihedigbo going to be a significant upgrade over having to swing a CB to Safety? If it's going to be someone totally mediocre occupying that fourth spot I'd rather have it be a raw talent or a mediocre player who can at least play 2 positions if needed.

I'm with you, I think there's zero chance Ihedigbo makes the team.

 

[MaineMan]

I hope that Wilson shows enough to be higher on the depth chart than Barrett and Ihedigbo - Ideally, I don't want to see either of them playing on defensive.

Maybe

CB McCourty, Dowling, Arrington, Dennard
FS Gregory, Allen
SS Chung, Wilson

and then

DB Sterling Moore as a developmental player who could be depth at both corner and safety.

with

Barrett, Ihedigbo, Cole, Ebner, Williams, Ventrone and Brown battling the likes of Tracy White, Koutivides and Tarpinian for one or two roster spots whose main contributions will be on special teams,

Something like this makes the most sense to me, though after last season when BB had nearly every DB on the roster (for however long they were on it) and Edelman rotating through for often significant numbers of snaps, I'd guess that Dennard, Wilson and Moore may all see more time than we'd expect from the bottom of the DB depth chart. IOW, I don't think any of them will be riding the pine waiting for an injury to see some decent playing time.

 

[mgteich]

We'll see during the first few games. Apparently, you have no need for Barrett, Brown or Ihedigbo. Fine, we'll see. I think that either Barrett or Ihedigbo will make the team.

I expect us to have Wilson and the winner of the safety competition to be our backup safeties.

You clearly expect Wilson to be a Day One major contributer because he was drafted in the 2nd round. Has he been drafted in the 5th or 6th where most had him rated, you might have a different assessment.

It is apparent to some that Belichick considered the safety position to be a special challenge this offseason. We had a huge, huge need and very little talent available. Belichick did what he needed to do, and then some. He even drafted a rugby player with 3 college snaps at safety. Many are just plugging these guys in, one as an immediate contributer, and the other as the #4, a top Ster who need a bit of development. One would think that you would understand the situation better, even if some others do not.

BOTTOM LINE

No, I did not hate the Wilson pick. There was almost nothing available. If Belichick thought that the best prospect available in the 2nd round was Wilson, then I have no arguments. It does NOT follow that he will be ready on Day One of his rookie season. I see absolutely no reason not to allow Wilson to develop some before depending on him in prime time.

A reminder

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/7865727/tavon-wilson-reach-round-2-not-bill-belichick

And yes, I would like to see Brown or Barrett or Ihedigbo make the team as a ST/SS. IMHO, Ihedigbo was hired to do a job last eyar and he did it well. He was then asked to be an everyday starter for weeks. He wasn't up to that task, but I would put waaaaaay ahead of Brown in that regard, and perhaps ahead of Barrett. IMHO, he also did better than McCourty and Moore at safety.

BTW, there wouldn't have been a safety crisis if McCourty or Moore could play safety.

Clearly you hate the Wilson draft pick. But how do you call a guy who played 50 college games and started 38 of them, raw?

Are you saying having Brown, Barrett, Ihedigbo or some other stiff as our backup safeties is a success?

 

[Ring 6]

We'll see during the first few games. Apparently, you have no need for Barrett, Brown or Ihedigbo. Fine, we'll see. I think that either Barrett or Ihedigbo will make the team.

"Clearly" putting words in my mouth again?
You are the one who has decided before the first snap of camp that a weak group of safeties have already been chosen to play ahead of Wilson before he is fitted for his NFL jockstrap.

I expect us to have Wilson and the winner of the safety competition to be our backup safeties.

You clearly expect Wilson to be a Day One major contributer because he was drafted in the 2nd round. Has he been drafted in the 5th or 6th where most had him rated, you might have a different assessment.

Dude, you need to stop making up something I did not say and calling it CLEARLY. If it were CLEAR that is what I think you would see it in MY words.

It is apparent to some that Belichick considered the safety position to be a special challenge this offseason

.
Who besides you is included in some?

We had a huge, huge need and very little talent available. Belichick did what he needed to do, and then some. He even drafted a rugby player with 3 college snaps at safety.

Are you seriously telling me you think Ebner was drafted to solve a safety problem in 2012?Really?

Many are just plugging these guys in, one as an immediate contributer, and the other as the #4, a top Ster who need a bit of development. One would think that you would understand the situation better, even if some others do not.

No, YOU are the only one plugging anybody in before the first snap of camp.

BOTTOM LINE

No, I did not hate the Wilson pick

.

There was almost nothing available.

There were no players available in the second round? I guess should cut Bequette since he lasted until the 3rd.
Based on your hallowed draft reporters opinions, there were a lot of other safeties that are better, and BB is just a moron.

If Belichick thought that the best prospect available in the 2nd round was Wilson, then I have no arguments

If you have no arguments then why are you jumping thread to thread ARGUING he used a 2 on a 5th round player?

. It does NOT follow that he will be ready on Day One of his rookie season. I see absolutely no reason not to allow Wilson to develop some before depending on him in prime time.

I see a huge reason. If he is ready to play, he should play.
You have this so backwards.
You are accusing people of annointing him ready, when no one has said that but argued against you RULING OUT THAT HE COULD BE READY.

A reminder

2012 draft: Tavon Wilson a reach in Round 2? Not to Bill Belichick - ESPN Boston

A reminder of what? That people who often get things wrong disagree with BB on this. So?

And yes, I would like to see Brown or Barrett or Ihedigbo make the team as a ST/SS. IMHO, Ihedigbo was hired to do a job last eyar and he did it well. He was then asked to be an everyday starter for weeks. He wasn't up to that task, but I would put waaaaaay ahead of Brown in that regard, and perhaps ahead of Barrett

.
No you have them as the 3rd and maybe 4th safeties, not special teamers.

IMHO, he also did better than McCourty and Moore at safety.

Everybody who played safety did it better than Moore. Actually McCourty's move to safety in sub at the end of the year was specifically to get Ihedigo off the field, so that is yet another curious statement by you.

BTW, there wouldn't have been a safety crisis if McCourty or Moore could play safety.

What? Having to move a corner to safety is a safety crisis. Having to rely on a guy off the street who not only couldn't make the Raiders team, but couldn't even stick on their practice squad is also safety crisis,
So it appears you are saying that when we have a safety crisis if the crisis management solved the problem we wouldn't have a crisis,

 

[Ring 6]

We'll see during the first few games. Apparently, you have no need for Barrett, Brown or Ihedigbo. Fine, we'll see. I think that either Barrett or Ihedigbo will make the team.

I expect us to have Wilson and the winner of the safety competition to be our backup safeties.

You clearly expect Wilson to be a Day One major contributer because he was drafted in the 2nd round. Has he been drafted in the 5th or 6th where most had him rated, you might have a different assessment.

It is apparent to some that Belichick considered the safety position to be a special challenge this offseason. We had a huge, huge need and very little talent available. Belichick did what he needed to do, and then some. He even drafted a rugby player with 3 college snaps at safety. Many are just plugging these guys in, one as an immediate contributer, and the other as the #4, a top Ster who need a bit of development. One would think that you would understand the situation better, even if some others do not.

BOTTOM LINE

No, I did not hate the Wilson pick. There was almost nothing available. If Belichick thought that the best prospect available in the 2nd round was Wilson, then I have no arguments. It does NOT follow that he will be ready on Day One of his rookie season. I see absolutely no reason not to allow Wilson to develop some before depending on him in prime time.

A reminder

2012 draft: Tavon Wilson a reach in Round 2? Not to Bill Belichick - ESPN Boston

And yes, I would like to see Brown or Barrett or Ihedigbo make the team as a ST/SS. IMHO, Ihedigbo was hired to do a job last eyar and he did it well. He was then asked to be an everyday starter for weeks. He wasn't up to that task, but I would put waaaaaay ahead of Brown in that regard, and perhaps ahead of Barrett. IMHO, he also did better than McCourty and Moore at safety.

BTW, there wouldn't have been a safety crisis if McCourty or Moore could play safety.

By the way, you never answered the actual question.
How do you consider a rookie who played 50 college games and started 38 raw?

 

[RayClay]

Apologies in advance as I commented previously in a similar thread, but here is my opinion. Barring of course the unforeseen injury, these six players are in:

CB: Dowling, McCourty, Arrington
S: Chung, Gregory, Wilson

Most likely Sterling Moore is also in at CB, but I'll list him separately since he is less of a 'lock' than the others listed above.

That leaves what appears to be roster battles for three defensive backs. Perhaps the Pats will look at it as three specific positions and skills.

CB#5: Alfonzo Dennard vs Will Allen
S#4: Josh Barrett vs Sergio Brown vs Dennard/Allen
Special Team Specialist Who Happens to be a Defensive Back: Marquice Cole vs James Ihedigbo vs Sergio Brown vs Nate Ebner vs Malcolm Williams vs Ross Ventrone


My way-too-early-guess? Dennard, a player not on the roster right now, and Cole. ... though I reserve the right to change my way too early roster guess tomorrow.

Seems as likely to be a special teamer who can play DB in a pinch as any of the others named. Actually played a bit in the jets defense and had one start - with two interceptions. I'd say that's rising to the occasion.

 

[mgteich]

I don't rule out Wilson as the #3 S or even higher since Chung seems to be injured often. Wilson will compete in camp. He will get plenty of reps. I merely have given my opinion of what I expect as of now.

On the other hand, you seem to have ruled out Allen, Barrett, Ihedigbo, Brown and Moore as #3 safeties. You seem to have decided that Wilson will be more ready that all of these player on Day One.

Of course, we are BOTH deciding before the first snap of camp, not just me. We might have different positions after camp and a couple of preseason games.

BOTTOM LINE
I'll make this more simple for you.

"As of June 24, I think it more likely that Allen (or a corner) rather than Wilson will be the backup FS for Game One."

"Clearly" putting words in my mouth again?
You are the one who has decided before the first snap of camp that a weak group of safeties have already been chosen to play ahead of Wilson before he is fitted for his NFL jockstrap.



Dude, you need to stop making up something I did not say and calling it CLEARLY. If it were CLEAR that is what I think you would see it in MY words.

.
Who besides you is included in some?


Are you seriously telling me you think Ebner was drafted to solve a safety problem in 2012?Really?




No, YOU are the only one plugging anybody in before the first snap of camp.

.
There were no players available in the second round? I guess should cut Bequette since he lasted until the 3rd.
Based on your hallowed draft reporters opinions, there were a lot of other safeties that are better, and BB is just a moron.


If you have no arguments then why are you jumping thread to thread ARGUING he used a 2 on a 5th round player?



I see a huge reason. If he is ready to play, he should play.
You have this so backwards.
You are accusing people of annointing him ready, when no one has said that but argued against you RULING OUT THAT HE COULD BE READY.



A reminder of what? That people who often get things wrong disagree with BB on this. So?

.
No you have them as the 3rd and maybe 4th safeties, not special teamers.


Everybody who played safety did it better than Moore. Actually McCourty's move to safety in sub at the end of the year was specifically to get Ihedigo off the field, so that is yet another curious statement by you.


What? Having to move a corner to safety is a safety crisis. Having to rely on a guy off the street who not only couldn't make the Raiders team, but couldn't even stick on their practice squad is also safety crisis,
So it appears you are saying that when we have a safety crisis if the crisis management solved the problem we wouldn't have a crisis,

 

[Ring 6]

I don't rule out Wilson as the #3 S or higher since Chung seems to be injured often. He'll compete in camp. I merely have given my opinion of what I expect as of now.

Chung played in 30 or 32 games last year before missing 8 with one injury. And that injury was a broken bone, something that has no aspect of recurrance or injury proneness to it. Poor characterization to call him often injured.

On the other hand, you seem to have ruled out Allen, Barrett, Ihedigbo and Brown as #3 S's.

Where have I done that? I simply have said if that is the result we are in deep trouble at safety, choosing from 2 guys who stunk last year or a 3rd who is an old player changing positions.
When you EXPECT a second round pick to beaten out by that flotsam and jetsom, you are denigrating the second round pick. When I really hope they won't, I am giving the second round pick the expectation a second round pick should have....that he is expected to be able to beat out scrubs.

 

[mgteich]

Now, that is a long nfl season!

Chung played in 30 or 32 games last year before missing 8 with one injury. And that injury was a broken bone, something that has no aspect of recurrance or injury proneness to it. Poor characterization to call him often injured.


.

 

[Ring 6]

Of course, we are BOTH deciding before the first snap of camp, not just me. We might have different positions after camp and a couple of preseason games.

No, I am not deciding at all. You said you expect Wilson to be a non factor.
I exactly criticized that for being made before he even started camp.
Explaining why your jumping to conclusions is ill advised does not equal me jimping to conclusions.

BOTTOM LINE
I'll make this more simple for you.

Gee thanks for the condescendation shout out.

"As of June 24, I think it more likely that Allen (or a corner) rather than Wilson will be the backup FS for Game One."

And as of June 24, you have nothing but the opinion of people who have consistently been very wrong to come to the conclusion that scrubs will play ahead of a guy who is very highly regarded by the coaching staff, and you have not seen play a down.
You have finally come around to understanding. You are jumping to a conclusion, and the only point of making that jump is to criticize a draft pick by saying players who stunk last year or never played the position will be better.
How many other positions on June 24, have you predicted the depth chart and playing time at? Any that you don't have a grudge to bear?

 

[Ring 6]

Now, that is a long nfl season!

Obviously in was 30/32 BEFORE last year.

 

[mgteich]

I stand corrected with regard to Chung's durability. However 16, 14, 8 is not a good trend line for games played.

We seem to be arguing about who will be labeled "#3 safety".

When the time comes, I expect that we will have Wilson, a ST/S and a CB/S. Belichick will activate and play the best we have on a given day. My guess for Game One is Ihedigbo and Allen. Yours is Wilson.

Chung played in 30 or 32 games last year before missing 8 with one injury. And that injury was a broken bone, something that has no aspect of recurrance or injury proneness to it. Poor characterization to call him often injured.


Where have I done that? I simply have said if that is the result we are in deep trouble at safety, choosing from 2 guys who stunk last year or a 3rd who is an old player changing positions.
When you EXPECT a second round pick to beaten out by that flotsam and jetsom, you are denigrating the second round pick. When I really hope they won't, I am giving the second round pick the expectation a second round pick should have....that he is expected to be able to beat out scrubs.

 

[mgteich]

I predict my guess at the depth chart at any point of the off-season (much too often for some of our posters). I have my biases, as everyone does. June 24th is no exception. And yes, I have players that I judge higher than others do, and players that I forecast lower than others do.

One of my biases is to expect more from veterans that Belichick choose than from rookies. For example, I expect more from Fanene, Gregory and Scott than some others do.

I consider rookies primarily as players for the future. For me, that what the draft is about. That being said, I expect alot from Hightower and Bequette this year.

.

How many other positions on June 24, have you predicted the depth chart and playing time at? Any that you don't have a grudge to bear?

 

[Ring 6]

I stand corrected with regard to Chung's durability. However 16, 14, 8 is not a good trend line for games played.

Breaking your thumb is not a trendsetting or confirming act.

We seem to be arguing about who will be labeled "#3 safety".

When the time comes, I expect that we will have Wilson, a ST/S and a CB/S. Belichick will activate and play the best we have on a given day. My guess for Game One is Ihedigbo and Allen. Yours is Wilson.

Since you keep wanting to create an opinion and label it mine, how about I give mine, and you accept it and stop trying to tell me what mine is?

I think that Ihedigbo, Brown and Barret are not NFL caliber 1,2 or 3 safeties, and them playing is evidence of a big weakness at the postion.

I think when that is what you have, and you draft a S in the second round that 2nd rounder has a clear opportunity to earn playing time.

I think Wilson has to go to training camp, adapt to the NFL, learn the playbook, and earn his role and playing time. Just like every other rookie this year and every other year before or after.
Since there is such horrific competition for the playing time, Wilson would seem to be a rookie that a great chance to make an impact.

I think that Wilson played an awful lot of football in college, against a high level of competition, was a leader, was asked to be versatile and do a wide variety of things that S has to do. (Playing corner in college helps the person doing the scouting get a much better idea of NFL cover skills at S for example) He is as far from 'raw' as a player coming from college could be.

Most of all, I think the player has not yet had day 1 of camp.

It is silly at this point to project where this player will develop to much less put a timeline of week 1 on it.

What we know is the history of players taken by BB in the 2nd round, and what they have done as rookies. That doesn't affect this player, but it gives insight to expectations. And we have a clear understanding of the quality of players who would keep him off the field and it is very substandard.

I could not care less where the player was drafted, could not care less about whether I liked the choice or not. If a UDFA beats out the 1st pick in the draft, he should play. You seem to have anger over the audacity of Belichick picking a player that the draft 'experts' didn't think should be picked that high, and all of your opinions seem to be couched to apply some type of vendetta against the pick.

Now, I normally have little issue with your opinions and posts, and this seems to have elevated to a more harsh that necessary back and forth, so I will bow out here, give you the last word, and we can discuss another topic at another point, hoipefully with no hard feelings.

 

[Ring 6]

I predict my guess at the depth chart at any point of the off-season (much too often for some of our posters). I have my biases, as everyone does. June 24th is no exception. And yes, I have players that I judge higher than others do, and players that I forecast lower than others do.

One of my biases is to expect more from veterans that Belichick choose than from rookies. For example, I expect more from Fanene, Gregory and Scott than some others do.

I consider rookies primarily as players for the future. For me, that what the draft is about. That being said, I expect alot from Hightower and Bequette this year.

Can you explain why you expect a lot from Bequette but not from Jones, who was chosen more than 60 spots earlier?

I want to move on from the Wilson thing, but I am curious what factors you are considering to be so high and Bequette and so down on Wilson.

 

[mgteich]

Thank you for clearly stating your position. As is usually the case, we don't ahve much disagreement. This is a slow season, so any disagreement generates lots of posts.

I apologize for any harshness; there are certainly no hard feeling.

.

Now, I normally have little issue with your opinions and posts, and this seems to have elevated to a more harsh that necessary back and forth, so I will bow out here, give you the last word, and we can discuss another topic at another point, hoipefully with no hard feelings.

 

[mgteich]

I expect a lot from Jones, just not as much early as from Hightower and Bequette. Obviously, Jones has a much, much higher ceiling than Bequette. Much of the tone of the many, many articles on these draftees seems to suggest that Bequette is ready to step in immediately while Jones has a bit more to learn.

I don't ignore the hundreds of articles, before and after the draft.

Also, I don't consider draft position as a predictor of Day One readiness. For me, draft position is more about predicting 2nd and 3rd year production than preicting first round production

Can you explain why you expect a lot from Bequette but not from Jones, who was chosen more than 60 spots earlier? I want to move on from the Wilson thing, but I am curious what factors you are considering to be so high and Bequette and so down on Wilson.