3 -4 Ends

[borg]

Just watched a best of JJ Watts video...like a tornado out there. The speed and hunger the guy displayed was impressive. I was trying to recall if Vrabel or McGuinest ever attacked with such athleticism and I think not. Add in his length and natural size. Just put him on the field and say, "Get me the ball"
He's definitely a gap shooter and I don't see him as a 2 gap guy...but he could be a big piece of the third down puzzle.

 

[*ChungFu*]

Just watched a best of JJ Watts video...like a tornado out there. The speed and hunger the guy displayed was impressive. I was trying to recall if Vrabel or McGuinest ever attacked with such athleticism and I think not. Add in his length and natural size. Just put him on the field and say, "Get me the ball"
He's definitely a gap shooter and I don't see him as a 2 gap guy...but he could be a big piece of the third down puzzle.

With the number of picks the Patriots have at this time it may make sense or be necessary to get someone that is currently one dimensional, with a passion for the game, and with solid work ethic and give them the time to broaden the skill-set. He'd probably be on the field for 2nd & 3rd downs on a regular basis. Does anyone know if Watt was involved in STs? You could probably use him on the Punt/FG blocking line at either end or the middle. So that's 2nd, 3rd & 4th downs. Does anyone know if he was ever asked to two-gap?

 

[Peachhead]

Just watched a best of JJ Watts video...like a tornado out there. The speed and hunger the guy displayed was impressive. I was trying to recall if Vrabel or McGuinest ever attacked with such athleticism and I think not. Add in his length and natural size. Just put him on the field and say, "Get me the ball"
He's definitely a gap shooter and I don't see him as a 2 gap guy...but he could be a big piece of the third down puzzle.

Once upon a time Richard Seymour and Vince Wilfork were just gap shooters too.

IIRC Big Vince even had a slight rap for letting ball carriers run right past him because Miami scheme was so centered on him rushing the passer, almost to the exclusion of everything else. Sometimes it's the scheme more than the player...I'm just sayin'

BTW, I actually see Watt as a BAD fit for most one gap teams.

 

[MaineMan]

With the number of picks the Patriots have at this time it may make sense or be necessary to get someone that is currently one dimensional, with a passion for the game, and with solid work ethic and give them the time to broaden the skill-set. He'd probably be on the field for 2nd & 3rd downs on a regular basis. Does anyone know if Watt was involved in STs? You could probably use him on the Punt/FG blocking line at either end or the middle. So that's 2nd, 3rd & 4th downs. Does anyone know if he was ever asked to two-gap?

Watt blocked 3 kicks this season.

AFAIK, he's probably never been asked to do much of what's required of a DE in BB's 3-4, much less 2-gap. But then, almost nobody ever is in college so any pick is going to have to adjust. I haven't seen anything specific to Watt to indicate that he'd have any greater difficulty transitioning than Quinn or Jordan or Heyward. From what I've seen, he seems like he'd be more effective with an OLB flanking him on the outside, setting the edge. And with not having to deal with the read/option.

 

[*ChungFu*]

Watt blocked 3 kicks this season.

AFAIK, he's probably never been asked to do much of what's required of a DE in BB's 3-4, much less 2-gap. But then, almost nobody ever is in college so any pick is going to have to adjust. I haven't seen anything specific to Watt to indicate that he'd have any greater difficulty transitioning than Quinn or Jordan or Heyward. From what I've seen, he seems like he'd be more effective with an OLB flanking him on the outside, setting the edge. And with not having to deal with the read/option.

That's pretty impressive. Well, he can be one pick we'll be disappointed that BB didn't take.

 

[MaineMan]

That's pretty impressive. Well, he can be one pick we'll be disappointed that BB didn't take.

Well, for me, the disappointment would be minor relative to the disappointment of BB not taking a 1st round DE at all, whoever it ends up being.

Looking back, it seems to me that there are more elite, 1st-round-worthy DE prospects in this draft then in any of the three previous drafts - maybe even more than the three previous drafts combined. My hypothesis is that this is why BB preferred the 2011 pick from Oakland for Seymour to any 2010 pick.

Anyway, from close-up, it's very easy to get lost in the details of one prospect compared to another. However, from a conceptual distance, a lot of them look equally good: elite athletically, strong/quick/fast within a fairly narrow range at the upper end of the spectrum, etc. And all of them have roughly the same "distance" to travel from their college experience to become a DE in BB's 3-4. Most all of them are coming from more or less attacking, one-gap systems. Virtually all of them have made their bones "diving headlong into gaps with their hair on fire" as another poster put it. Virtually all of them have, by the design of their college systems, been less concerned with the run than with getting to the QB. So, really, the style of play they've inhabited in college and what they've accomplished individually in terms of racking up stat numbers is pretty equal across the board in that it doesn't matter all that much.

So, the differences that might be important to BB could include, not necessarily in this order,
- length (BB's history with early round DE's for his 3-4 shows a distinct preference for guys who are 6'5"+)
- heft (or, at least, the frame to handle 300+)
- hand technique
- ball location awareness
- assignment discipline
- football smarts
- attitude, coachability
- a whole bunch of other things under the heading "Intangibles"

Getting back to my original point, everybody is going to have their binkies from among this selection of candidates and most are going to be disappointed when "their guy" isn't the one selected. But, whoever BB picks should help restore his 3-4 line to a state much closer to what it was in the Seymour/Wilfork/Warren days than it is now. In all likelihood, the guy won't be "the next Seymour", but he'll work. And the results in run defense and QB pressure will be significant.

Like I said, the only real disappoint for me would be if BB takes a pass on all these DE prospects in the first (or even 2nd) round.

 

[BelichickFan]

Like I said, the only real disappoint for me would be if BB takes a pass on all these DE prospects in the first (or even 2nd) round.

It's almost impossible that would happen. Absolute worst case we'll take a couple of DE no later than the end of the 4th round although I expect one or more quite a bit higher. Now, the people who will be devastated if we pass on a pass rushing OLB in the first round, they may want to get their anti-depression meds out and ready; although Belichick is unpredictable he has never taken a significant position changer higher than he took Cunningham; however we all know all the DL he's taken high - Seymour, Warren, Wilfork in round one, Brace high in round two, Marquis Hill late in round two.

My guess would be Heyward at 28 and someone like Jarvis Jenkins in the third round but it's almost a stone cold lock due to a combination of Bill's history, some good depth at the position in the draft and the fact that our DL absolutely blew chunks at the end of last year.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Why are you not high on Ballard?

I've watched probably half a dozen or better Iowa games in the past 12 months dating back to their Orange Bowl against GA Tech, when offenses assigned blocking Ballard was the one DL most likely to be accorded the lowest priority. If opposing coaches aren't going to take him seriously, I'm not inclined to myself.

The guy is an incredible athlete in space, but in the trash he loses sight of the ball and is too easily avoided. If I was Chicago or Carolina or New Orleans looking for a bigger DE to rush off the edge, I'd be very interested in Ballard. Since my team is a base 3-4 two-gap outfit, Ballard doesn't thrill me.

I know NE met with him at the Senior Bowl, that is just going to make him one of 200-300 players they interview heading up to the draft. And I have to tell you, the kid I saw in practice Senior Bowl week, was not the same kid I saw in the games - there's a reason DL Karl Klug was voted Iowa's Defensive MVP for the season over the higher ranked Adrian Clayborn and Christian Ballard (by all draftnik rankings) - and I have to ask why?

 

[andrewgarrr]

Are any college defensive linemen ever asked to 2-gap? I rarely watch college football, except for highlights and youtube clips, but I've never seen a player consistently 2-gap on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down. I could be very wrong.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Are any college defensive linemen ever asked to 2-gap? I rarely watch college football, except for highlights and youtube clips, but I've never seen a player consistently 2-gap on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down. I could be very wrong.

Nebraska tends to play a two-gap. The best bet when trying to assess DL is to look for the guys who are double-teamed a lot, they are at least used to fighting the extra attention.

 

[andrewgarrr]

Are most the of the 34 defensive ends that come out of college converted from DT to DE? I know Seymour played mostly DT at Georgia and Warren played both positions at Texas A&M.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Kinda the way I see it, too.

Here's my preliminary depth chart:

3-4 LINE:

LDE: Ty Warren (inj), Kade Weston (inj)
NT: Wilfork, Brace (inj), Love, Weston (inj)
RDE: G. Warren (old), Weston (inj)

40-front/sub-packages:

DT: Brace (inj), Love, Landon Cohen (??), Darryl Richard (inj), [Marlon Favorite - P/S]
Sub-rusher: Wright (inj), Pryor (inj), Deaderick (jerk)

Lots of question marks along the D-line. To me, that means, potentially, lots of room for new guys.

Agreed. I think everyone agrees we need to take a stud DL to fill RDE, but I wouldn't be surprised if BB takes another DL with a top-6 pick.

Apart from Ty, Vince, and Wright (for his pass rushing), the majority of those guys are interchangeable and ultimately replaceable. I'd also add Brace as he has a bit more versatility than most on the list and he was probably the best DL against the run this season.

I'd put Gerard Warren, Deaderick and Love at the next level, guys who have proven they can play but could easily be pushed down the depth chart or replaced by draft picks. I could see each of those 3 returning for one reason or another, but not sure all 3 will return. Everyone else is basically on the roster bubble.

 

[cstjohn17]

Agreed. I think everyone agrees we need to take a stud DL to fill RDE, but I wouldn't be surprised if BB takes another DL with a top-6 pick.

Apart from Ty, Vince, and Wright (for his pass rushing), the majority of those guys are interchangeable and ultimately replaceable. I'd also add Brace as he has a bit more versatility than most on the list and he was probably the best DL against the run this season.

I'd put Gerard Warren, Deaderick and Love at the next level, guys who have proven they can play but could easily be pushed down the depth chart or replaced by draft picks. I could see each of those 3 returning for one reason or another, but not sure all 3 will return. Everyone else is basically on the roster bubble.

A stud DE would be great but realistically the only rookies who would be an immediate upgrade would be Fairley and Dareus.

My opinion is that Warren is resigned and Brace comes back healthly leaving the core as Warren, Warren and Wilfork in the middle with Brace being the immediate backup. In sub packages Wright is in the mix along with Pryor.

With sub pressure being a weakness I would look at at DE that could contribute immediately in a sub rusher and mature into a full time starter. IMO Jordan is the best of the bunch and is the only one I would take at 17, Watt, Heyward and even Phil Talyor are not as good pass rushers but could prvide some versatility across the line. I would consider them at 27 or 33.

So unless someone falls to them at 17 I think they wait until the next series of picks to address DE.

Forgot, this is my view of the team's signed players as of 1/29.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApWRaF25BKdAdHV6ZXlIMnNBQ3FNQXNhc0IweWJ6bUE&hl=en

 

[Ochmed Jones]

A stud DE would be great but realistically the only rookies who would be an immediate upgrade would be Fairley and Dareus.

My opinion is that Warren is resigned and Brace come back healthly leaving the core as Warren, Warren and Wilfork in the middle with Brace being the immediate backup. In sub packages Wright is in the mix along with Pryor.

With sub pressure being a weakness I would look at at DE that could contribute immediately in a sub rusher and mature into a full time starter. IMO Jordan is the best of the bunch and is the only one I would take at 17, Watt, Heyward and even Phil Talyor are not as good pass rushers but could prvide some versatility across the line. I would consider them at 27 or 33.

So unless someone falls to them at 17 I think they wait until the next series of picks to address DE.

Forgot, this is my view of the team's signed players as of 1/29.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApWRaF25BKdAdHV6ZXlIMnNBQ3FNQXNhc0IweWJ6bUE&hl=en

I am not so sure about resigning G Warren. The staff did a great job of limiting him and were able to squeeze a full season out of him, but he wore down terribly as the season progressed and was barely functional come playoff time.

As for Fairley, I think he would be a train wreck in a read and react defense. He is a pure gap shooter.

Dareus is the stud DE in this class and comes with three years experience in our defense. But let's be honest, if he makes it past Buffalo, Dallas gets him at #9.

The only remaining guy that intrigues is Jordan. He played DE in a 3-4 in college and had much success,but he is only 285 pounds and will need a red shirt year to gain weight and strength.

If Dareus falls to #9, would BB mortgage the farm to go get him from Dallas?

 

[convertedpatsfan]

A stud DE would be great but realistically the only rookies who would be an immediate upgrade would be Fairley and Dareus.

My opinion is that Warren is resigned and Brace come back healthly leaving the core as Warren, Warren and Wilfork in the middle with Brace being the immediate backup. In sub packages Wright is in the mix along with Pryor.

With sub pressure being a weakness I would look at at DE that could contribute immediately in a sub rusher and mature into a full time starter. IMO Jordan is the best of the bunch and is the only one I would take at 17, Watt, Heyward and even Phil Talyor are not as good pass rushers but could prvide some versatility across the line. I would consider them at 27 or 33.

So unless someone falls to them at 17 I think they wait until the next series of picks to address DE.

Forgot, this is my view of the team's signed players as of 1/29.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApWRaF25BKdAdHV6ZXlIMnNBQ3FNQXNhc0IweWJ6bUE&hl=en

I wonder how Brace would be on the right side, as I haven't seen him play over there. But if he can handle that spot, he'd be an upgrade in the run game over Warren and we could bring in sub rushers.

If Jordan is available at 17 or with a small trade-up, that would be a great pick. But otherwise, you're probably right and we address DE with 27 or 33. I still think a guy at that spot, like Heyward, could develop and compete for a starting spot by mid-season.

On the spreadsheet, noticed Deaderick was listed as the back-up NT. Wouldn't Brace or Love be considered there? I recall seeing Deaderick at left end more.

 

[welker>god]

Jack Reacher?

do we have nominations for 'Post of the Void'?

if so, I nominate MaineMan - best of luck

 

[cstjohn17]

I am not so sure about resigning G Warren. The staff did a great job of limiting him and were able to squeeze a full season out of him, but he wore down terribly as the season progressed and was barely functional come playoff time.

As for Fairley, I think he would be a train wreck in a read and react defense. He is a pure gap shooter.

Dareus is the stud DE in this class and comes with three years experience in our defense. But let's be honest, if he makes it past Buffalo, Dallas gets him at #9.

The only remaining guy that intrigues is Jordan. He played DE in a 3-4 in college and had much success,but he is only 285 pounds and will need a red shirt year to gain weight and strength.

If Dareus falls to #9, would BB mortgage the farm to go get him from Dallas?

You might be right about Warren, it is a lot to rely on a 90 year old never was to be a starter, but I don't see any rookie other than Fairley and Dareus being able to start right out of the gate. Have to disagree about Fairley, I think he could play in any scheme. I hope he doesn't fall to the Bills, don't want to see him twice a year. Remember big Vince was a "pure 1 gap get upfield" player at the U, he worked out ok.

Any rookie that comes up will be used in a rotation, my eye is on Jordan because he can rush the passer.

 

[MaineMan]

do we have nominations for 'Post of the Void'?

if so, I nominate MaineMan - best of luck

As always, it's an honor just to be nominated. However, since "void" describes a percentage of my cranium that is much greater than most folks, I always feel like I'm cheating. Plus, in all honesty, the post was in response to patchick's question above it.