10 things I think most of us can agree on at the bye

[lancerman]

It'll be a long time before Kraft feels anything financially from the play of the team.

However the public opinion of the Patriots, the local, national , international fan appeal of the Patriots might matter to them just enough where they force something.

However don't kid yourself, spending low on the roster and bad seasons are not financially harming them at all. Thats not the catalyst at this moment.

Ironically this particular game MIGHT be a catalyst for Kraft because he really wanted the Patriots to be able to forge a fanbase and cornerstone in the Germany market and an embarassing loss like this is going to give other teams the chance to do that and potentially make the Patriots redundant there. That's bad business for him

 

[raduray]

Was this book written before or after Brady took Tampa to a Super Bowl victory?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Was this book written before or after Brady took Tampa to a Super Bowl victory?

2017 or 2018.

 

[catent]

Belichick at least managed to get top tier talent for Brady, even if part of it was luck: first Welker and Moss, then GRONK and the other guy, then Edelman and White. (No, Edelman/White are not top-5 overall, but they were top-5 or better in their specific roles.)

I don't buy that these guys were raw elite talents, and that the current receiving talent lacks that. Brady helped those guys become what they were.

The roster is fine short of the QB and OL. Put Brady on this team and give him an average OL, and he makes hay with these receivers. Gesicki, Henry, Douglas are no slouches. Parker, JJSS, Boutte are fine complementary pieces. If Brady could win a Super Bowl with LaFell as his primary 'X' receiver, he certainly would be fine with Devante Parker in that role.

I want to see BB and O'Brien get a shot with a different QB and an upgraded OL.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don't buy that these guys were raw elite talents, and that the current receiving talent lacks that. Brady helped those guys become what they were.

The roster is fine short of the QB and OL. Put Brady on this team and give him an average OL, and he makes hay with these receivers. Gesicki, Henry, Douglas are no slouches. Parker, JJSS, Boutte are fine complementary pieces. If Brady could win a Super Bowl with LaFell as his primary 'X' receiver, he certainly would be fine with Devante Parker in that role.

LaFell (primary X) - Edelman - Amendola - Gronkowski - Vereen

The current group of skill players isn’t in the same stratosphere.

 

[Boomer B]

I don't buy that these guys were raw elite talents, and that the current receiving talent lacks that. Brady helped those guys become what they were.

The roster is fine short of the QB and OL. Put Brady on this team and give him an average OL, and he makes hay with these receivers. Gesicki, Henry, Douglas are no slouches. Parker, JJSS, Boutte are fine complementary pieces. If Brady could win a Super Bowl with LaFell as his primary 'X' receiver, he certainly would be fine with Devante Parker in that role.

I want to see BB and O'Brien get a shot with a different QB and an upgraded OL.

Bill picked the damn roster. He’s 72. So we give him a shot to draft and coach up a new QB, then he’s about 75 before that QB is 3rd year and we know what we have. Then Bill is near retirement.

Turn it over to new blood to pick the QB who we hope can lead us for the next decade or more, not someone who’s gonna retire in a few years and has built a horrible offensive roster.

 

[h0c2000]

Belichick at least managed to get top tier talent for Brady, even if part of it was luck: first Welker and Moss, then GRONK and the other guy, then Edelman and White. (No, Edelman/White are not top-5 overall, but they were top-5 or better in their specific roles.)

I don't buy that these guys were raw elite talents, and that the current receiving talent lacks that. Brady helped those guys become what they were.

Moss and Gronk were generational talents at their positions, beyond elite. Is there any question Gronk would have succeeded if he went somewhere else?

Welker was an elite talent at an undervalue position. Welker was very good in a very bad situation in Miami. Collegiately, Welker was a killer and again undervalued in the draft. Need to give Bill applause for recognizing the value of Welker's talent.

Brady probably had a significant influence on Edelman and White's careers and development.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Good post. I want to add one though.

11. This does not have to be a long multi-year process back to relevancy. Teams go from bottom feeders to competitive in a short time in the NFL. The pats have the #2 run defense in YPC in part due to barmore’s development. Judon will be back and his game should age well. Gonzalez is the first blue chip prospect added to the team in a decade. The defense should be top 10. It takes one offseason from a new GM investing in offense wisely to turn this around. Re-signing onwenu, adding someone like pittman & drafting a blue chip prospect on offense makes them respectable in year 1 post BB.

 

[RIpats88]

If you watch the film, and let’s just say today, Washington and LV. And you had an average QB in there, just making the right decision and making the easy throws, those games are all wins. Let’s not even include the games his pick 6s and other ints put us in a hole and lee to beatings. Maybe this team isn’t a playoff team with an average QB but it’s a .500 team. I don’t think that’s disputable if you review the film. And that is also not taking account for the severe number of injuries.

but thats the problem. at best this is a .500 team with .500 talent on offense.

if you are happy with us being a .500 team the rest of Bill's career playing 90's style football fine...

 

[archstanton543]

Good post. I want to add one though.

11. This does not have to be a long multi-year process back to relevancy. Teams go from bottom feeders to competitive in a short time in the NFL. The pats have the #2 run defense in YPC in part due to barmore’s development. Judon will be back and his game should age well. Gonzalez is the first blue chip prospect added to the team in a decade. The defense should be top 10. It takes one offseason from a new GM investing in offense wisely to turn this around. Re-signing onwenu, adding someone like pittman & drafting a blue chip prospect on offense makes them respectable in year 1 post BB.

Great but they have to completely revamp the offense from the QB on down. That's going to take a few seasons.

 

[RIpats88]

I don't buy that these guys were raw elite talents, and that the current receiving talent lacks that. Brady helped those guys become what they were.

The roster is fine short of the QB and OL. Put Brady on this team and give him an average OL, and he makes hay with these receivers. Gesicki, Henry, Douglas are no slouches. Parker, JJSS, Boutte are fine complementary pieces. If Brady could win a Super Bowl with LaFell as his primary 'X' receiver, he certainly would be fine with Devante Parker in that role.

I want to see BB and O'Brien get a shot with a different QB and an upgraded OL.

Acting like LaFell was his #1 receiver is disingenuous. lafell was next to Gronkowski/edelman/Vereen. he was a complimentary piece. who is the #1 target on this team?

receivers either get it in the NFL or they don't. theres a reason Pop douglas, meyers jumped out of the gate and we still have people telling me that they watch the "all 22 and dont worry thornton is really good!"

welker/edelman were going to be talented based on their hard work. their stats were definitely better with brady. but to act like he made them is abit much.

why didn't he make aaron dobson, nkeal harry, chad jackson, kenbrell thompkins, underwood or many of the other guys that came in here and failed?

 

[Ring 6]

but thats the problem. at best this is a .500 team with .500 talent on offense.

if you are happy with us being a .500 team the rest of Bill's career playing 90's style football fine...

That’s hardly at best.

 

[RIpats88]

That’s hardly at best.

If this team was playing to it's potential that's our ceiling.

Even the most diehard patriots media members thought this was a 6-8 win team at best.

Look at the talent on offense compared to the rest of the league. There's no explosive players. They want to play a style of football that hasn't existed in 20-30 years.

 

[Ring 6]

If this team was playing to it's potential that's our ceiling.

Even the most diehard patriots media members thought this was a 6-8 win team at best.

Look at the talent on offense compared to the rest of the league. There's no explosive players. They want to play a style of football that hasn't existed in 20-30 years.

No. If there was average qb play, that’s the worst we would be, even with crappy qb play in other games, if the qb was competent vs wash, Indy and LV, we are 5-5.

I could not care less about what media and fans thought, I’m talking about the actual games played on the field. The qb makes everyone around him worse. Gesicki and Henry ran TD routes and the QB couldn’t deliver easy passes. Receivers were open and the qb didn’t find them and took sacks, making the ol look worse than it should have.

 

[RIpats88]

No. If there was average qb play, that’s the worst we would be, even with crappy qb play in other games, if the qb was competent vs wash, Indy and LV, we are 5-5.

I could not care less about what media and fans thought, I’m talking about the actual games played on the field. The qb makes everyone around him worse. Gesicki and Henry ran TD routes and the QB couldn’t deliver easy passes. Receivers were open and the qb didn’t find them and took sacks, making the ol look worse than it should have.

5-5 is .500 which is what I posted is our likely ceiling.

Not sure what you are arguing. You are agreeing with me that if we play our best we are a .500 team maybe sub .500.

That's what we've been since 2019 after the soft part of our schedule we went 4-4 down the stretch and only put up 13 against the titans

 

[ctpatsfan77]

If this team was playing to it's potential that's our ceiling.

Even the most diehard patriots media members thought this was a 6-8 win team at best.

Look at the talent on offense compared to the rest of the league. There's no explosive players. They want to play a style of football that hasn't existed in 20-30 years.

Belichick, at any rate.

 

[condon84]

Belichick at least managed to get top tier talent for Brady, even if part of it was luck: first Welker and Moss, then GRONK and the other guy, then Edelman and White. (No, Edelman/White are not top-5 overall, but they were top-5 or better in their specific roles.)

First 3 SBs, Brady's best WR was Branch, who was proven to be a mediocre WR once he left elsewhere.

Brady led the 2006 Patriots to the AFCCG and the #7 ranked offense. His top receivers were Reche Caldwell, Ben Watson, and Kevin Faulk.

People now want to think Brady was all about throwing bombs, but the overwhelming majority of his career, he threw mostly short and intermediate passes. Brady would absolutely spam Henry, Geisicki, and Douglas, not to mention Rham out of the backfield.

 

[yukon cornelius]

Pop looks like a decent pick for round 6.......but is he REALLY that dynamic relative to the league, or just relative to our slugs?

i mean he has a chance to develop into a mid level slot guy, sure, but.....

 

[Jim Beankie]

Lol here's 2 points for a top ten no one wants to touch :

Matt Patricia's offense was better.

Cam Newton as a QB was more efficient.

::runs and ducks::

 

[Thelonious]

A few thoughts (only about 400 words) heading into the bye.

1. Losing Christian Gonzalez, Marcus Jones, and Matt Judon to injuries absolutely sucks. Having them probably wouldn't make this a winning team, but at least it'd make them more enjoyable to watch.

2. Pop Douglas is electric, and they need to find more ways to get the ball in his hands.

3. The team needs to move on from Mac Jones this offseason. We can (and almost certainly will) continue to debate how much of it is Jones' fault and how much is Belichick's/the team's fault. But that doesn't change the fact that he's just not going to succeed here. His contract is cheap enough ($2.5M salary next year, for which NE is currently on the hook) that there's a chance to get a draft pick for him.

4. The odds are remote that next year's starting QB is currently on the roster. We'll almost certainly be debating who that person should be for the next 6 months.

5. This team doesn't have enough talent on offense. This is essentially entirely Belichick's fault, since he has final say over the roster.

6. The constant drain on coaching talent has now reached critical mass. It's amazing how many coaches this team has lost, especially on the offensive side, since 2018: Ernie Adams, Dante Scarnecchia, and Ivan Fears are all major losses, and Josh McDaniels took multiple assistants with him when he left. [Admittedly, the loss of Patricia is addition by subtraction, but his incompetence is a factor in the current mess.]

7. One way or another, Belichick's time as HC of the NYP is nearly over. I don't think the Krafts want to fire him, for two reasons: (1) they don't want to pay him big bucks to not coach, and (2) they want to give him the same type of sendoff they're going to give Brady next year.

8. Change is scary. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. We all want to get back to watching the Patriots win playoff games ASAP, but there's no guarantee that if the Patriots replace Belichick, the next guy will do that, either.

9. Change is also necessary. The critical question is how much. Belichick built a flawed roster and botched Jones' development. Do the Krafts trust him to correct those issues enough to give him a second chance, or do they move on to someone new (whether Mayo or someone else)?

10. No matter what, the JEST still suck.

1. Yep

2.Yep

3. "The team needs to move on from Mac Jones this offseason." I understand the impulse, and your point is likely to hold true as the process unfolds, but we are under no compulsion to move on from Mac during the rest of the season, and we do not yet know know what exactly our qb situation will be as we work through the off season. So, Though I think the point is right, we need not act on it now and should not, given we do not know what conditions will be when we genuinely must act.

4. Yep, basically.

5. The main point, it seems to me. The importance of this aspect of the situation makes action on this our first priority. We cannot have Bill entitled to any but purely pro forma input on roster matters. If ditching the GM means we lose HC, so be it. There has been decline in that role as well. Would any rational person call this a well-coached team"?

6. Absolutely.

7. Bill must go, period. I'd love to see it happen harmoniously, in a way which benefits the team but takes Bill's feelings and the debt we owe him into account - but it must happen. It's over.

8. Yep. Doesn't matter though. If Bill has declined to the point he is not able to fill his role, as I believe he has, he has to go, whatever the subsequent challenges might be. We must be realistic: it will take at least two years to get this utterly failed team back into any sort of order. So it goes. Buckle up. There will be headwinds and weird twisteroos. Could be fun.

9. Absolutely.

10. Correct. The very nature of reality ensures this will ever be so.