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Patricia was "de facto general manager" after Caserio's Departure

One-If-By-Sea said:
Just like @Ross12 , you are generalizing with "we laughed at him". There are some of us that recognized that Matt has him limitations, like everyone does, but overall he is a smart football guy. Matt is probably not a head coach, and maybe not an offensive coordinator, but overall he is a really good football coach respected by the other coaches that work with him.

When judging a coach, look at what other coaches say. Other coaches at the Patriots all like Patricia. Only the Boston Sports Media disliked Matt, and then PatsFans posters piled on.
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Wait... you're saying Patricia wasn't ridiculed here in '22 as the OC?
 
upstater1 said:
Wait... you're saying Patricia wasn't ridiculed here in '22 as the OC?
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Yup he was ridiculed. But not by me in '22, '23, or '24. Check the records.

Patricia was not great, but he was not bad either. Compare his record versus BOB (who RK hand picked), or AVP, and Patricia was better even though AVP had Maye (I think I have posted the same challenge about 10 times). Is Patricia a good OC? Not great, I agree.

I always posted that the PatsFans and Boston Sports Reporters criticism was uncalled for and ill-informed. I still stand by that.
 
Let me add this hypothetical to the mix. Wouldn't everything had worked out much better if we simply had just GIVEN Casserio his title and pay raise, which is all he wanted. He doesn't go to Houston; BB gets a guy he has worked with well for years; and the team's decline would have been more gradual and less grating. Brady still would have left in 2020, btw, but I think the jarring collapse we saw after the 2021 season wouldn't have had happened. Just a thought
 
rkarp1 said:
just telling the truth
it's been reported that in Bill's contract he had final and absolute say over all football decisions. if he did not have that, his contract voided.
Bob has repeatedly said Bill had total control

what more do you need to acknowledge JK was not muscling Bill?
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You never saw Bill's contract... ever. Stop lying.

Bob said personnel was becoming a collaboration entering the 2021 offseason at the owner's meetings.

Bill said personnel was no longer under his control the last few years he was here in an interview a year or so ago.

All of this ^ is public record, directly from both guy's mouths.

You're full of sht.
 
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Wozzy said:
You never saw Bill's contract... ever. Stop lying.

Bob said personnel was becoming a collaboration entering the 2021 offseason at the owner's meetings.

Bill said personnel was no longer under his control the last few years he was here in an interview a year or so ago.

All of this ^ is public record, directly from both guy's mouths.

You're full of sht.
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that is absolutley false
in Jan 2024, Bill came out and said he would be willing to relinquish personnel control in order to save his job.

Bill Belichick under contract, would take lesser role in personnel matters stay with Pats | FOX Sports

Bill Belichick, who confirmed he remains under contract with the Patriots, is open to letting someone else handle personnel duties if it benefits the organization.
www.foxsports.com

Bill Belichick indicates he would be willing to relinquish some personnel duties to stay with Patriots - The Boston Globe

Belichick spoke Monday as if he will remain coach, noting he is still under contract. He would not say whether he’s received indications from ownership that his job is in jeopardy.
www.bostonglobe.com

Patriots coach Bill Belichick ‘under contract,’ open to ceding personnel control - National Football Post

New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick said Monday he’s still “under contract” and will continue to “do what I always do,” a
www.nationalfootballpost.com
 
rkarp1 said:
in Jan 2024, Bill came out and said he would be willing to relinquish personnel control in order to save his job.
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That's not what he said, from the very article you posted.

"I'm for whatever collectively we decide as an organization is the best thing to help our football team," Belichick said during Monday's video conference. "I'm under contract. I'm going to do what I always do, which is every day I come in, work as hard as I can to help the team in whatever way I can. So that's what I'm going to continue to do."

The details of Belichick's contract have never been released publicly.

As to possibly giving up his role as the team's de facto general manager with final call on personnel matters, the 71-year-old Belichick said he is flexible if it benefits the organization.

"I have multiple roles in that. I rely on a lot of people to help me in those responsibilities," Belichick said. "If somebody's got to have the final say, I rely on a lot of other people to help. And, however that process is, I'm only part of it."

He directly said it's already a collaboration.

Also note the part in bold ^ above... like I said, you have never seen Bill's contract and nobody even knew exactly what he was getting paid, so for you to say you saw the fine print in his contract is laughably absurd.
 
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That would imply Belichick wasn't spiraling. The closing of his circle was still going to happen. His football IQ was still high, but everything else was dropping off...and fast. It's no indictment of his amazing success for most of his time here to suggest that he was not the same at the end as he was at the beginning.

By the last Super Bowl win, he had already started to lose what had made him great. His coaching staff grew smaller as his desire to 'deal with' new people lessened. He didn't listen to anybody who might tell him when his decision making was poor.
 
upstater1 said:
We take this as gospel somehow.

I saw that report of the 2018 draft, but the timeline doesn't match.

Garoppolo was traded in 2017. So if Belichick was offered that by the Browns, it had to be shortly before he traded Jimmy G. He wasn't holding onto him. Look at the timeline.

I agree about Jimmy G. being made of glass but I've yet to see a QB play through an AC Joint sprain and be effective.
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Whether the Browns' report is true, it is a fact that there were several teams interested in Garoppolo the offseason before he was traded and the Patriots made it clear they wouldn't trade him even for four fourth round picks.

And the Pats expected Garoppolo to play that game against Buffalo (I think) with the sprained AC joint. So I don't know if Belichick and the coaching staff would have agreed with you about him not being able to play effectively. And Martellus Bennett and Jullian Edelman called him a b*tch for not playing through the shoulder injury. Well, Bennett actually used the word b*tch and Jules just agreed with him.
 
upstater1 said:
In the end, it was a mutiny.

Belichick was totally justified. Having your coordinators refuse to speak to you and instead make the locker room intolerable is exactly what he didn't want.

Let's face the truth: in the Dynasty series, Kraft was up front about wanting to fire Belichick multiple times, not only 2x early on after their 5-11 season, but also in 2014, and again in 2017, and after 2019 when Brady left and he had to talk Jonathan out of it, who was pushing for it. It's clear what Belichick was facing from the Krafts, and it was the same exact story as what happened to Parcells and the Krafts. They did not trust each other.

As for the downfall, a talent decline is what lead to the downfall. It wa a miracle that team won 10 and 7 or 8 in '21 and '22, when they were cutting the old guard.
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I don't think Belichick was the victim. Neither were the Krafts or Mayo. I think the real story is in between and all sides have their share of the blame to how things ended.

The ironic thing is Belichick was treated much like some of the star players of the dynasty era were treated by Belichick (Milloy, Seymour, Brady). Belichick made it clear he was preparing to move on from Brady as early as 2012. And by all accounts, Brady and Belichick had an awful relationship Brady's last few years in New England. The Krafts and Belichick relationship the final years were very similar in dynamics.

And you can point to the Krafts and Parcells and I can point to Belichick and the NY Jets and how that relationship ended. Parcells didn't trust Belichick for a number of years until they buried the hatched like a decade after their falling out.

I think everyone involved had their hands dirty in this. Stop making the Krafts the bad guys and Belichick the victim. None of the sides handled the final years well.
 
Rob0729 said:
Whether the Browns' report is true, it is a fact that there were several teams interested in Garoppolo the offseason before he was traded and the Patriots made it clear they wouldn't trade him even for four fourth round picks.
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What report are we even talking about?

Jimmy was offered to the entire league in the offseason before the 2017 season. Adam Schefter reported this, Mike Lombardi reported this. He sat on the trade block for three months after the Patriots announced he was available and they wanted a first round pick for him. Nobody offered them a first, and the Browns had two of them.

A week before the draft the Patriots announced they were pulling Jimmy off the trade market and would get ready for the 2017 season... nobody made them the offer they wanted, so they thought they'd wait until the trade deadline and hope some contender's starting QB got hurt.

Months after Brown's GM Sashi Brown got fired, he was asked about Jimmy G and said he would have offered a first... what he would have done after he got fired wasn't worth ****. Brown's head coach Hue Jackson's daughter even clapped back at somebody on twitter and said the day of the trade deadline when Jimmy was traded to the 49ers that the Browns front office wasn't even in the building... that they went home early that day.

The Browns had two first round picks, if they offered one for Jimmy... Bill would have jumped all over it. The rumor the Browns made an offer and Bill turned it down is pure fan fiction. Sashi Brown would have loved that excuse.
 
patfanken said:
Let me add this hypothetical to the mix. Wouldn't everything had worked out much better if we simply had just GIVEN Casserio his title and pay raise, which is all he wanted. He doesn't go to Houston; BB gets a guy he has worked with well for years; and the team's decline would have been more gradual and less grating. Brady still would have left in 2020, btw, but I think the jarring collapse we saw after the 2021 season wouldn't have had happened. Just a thought
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The team was old and needed a total and complete overhaul. Caserio over Wolf and others, yes. You're right. But on the other hand, Caserio and Belichick presided over 2015-2019. So it's hard to say.

The collapse was going to come regardless.

I consider 2023 an abomination simply because of all the craziness that went on. If the Krafts knew they didn't want Belichick anymore, they should have let him go. The worst thing you can do is run it back and have internal dissension.

I don't consider the 7-10 2022 record much of a surprise at all, given they were cycling out of their old talent.
 
Wozzy said:
What report are we even talking about?

Jimmy was offered to the entire league in the offseason before the 2017 season. Adam Schefter reported this, Mike Lombardi reported this. He sat on the trade block for three months after the Patriots announced he was available and that they wanted a first round pick for him. Nobody offered them a first, and the Browns had two of them.

A week before the draft the Patriots announced they were pulling Jimmy off the trade market and would get ready for the 2017 season... nobody made them the offer they wanted, so they thought they'd wait until the trade deadline and hope some contender's starting QB got hurt.

Months after Brown's GM Sashi Brown got fired, he was asked about Jimmy G and said he would have offered a first... what he would have done after he got fired wasn't worth ****. Brown's head coach Hue Jackson's daughter even clapped back at somebody on twitter and said the day of the trade deadline when Jimmy was traded to the 49ers that the Browns front office wasn't even in the building... that they went home early that day.

The Browns had two first round picks, if they offered one for Jimmy... Bill would have jumped all over it. The rumor the Browns made an offer and Bill turned it down is pure fan fiction. Sashi Brown would have loved that excuse.
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Schefter reported that the Patriots wouldn't trade Garoppolo for four first round picks. Here is a Tweet from Schefter from April of 2017 saying the Pats received calls for Garoppolo from the Browns and Pats told them that Garoppolo was not available for trade.



I cannot find video of him saying the thing about four first rounders, but here is Kirk Minahane quoting Schefter at the time Jimmy G was traded to the 49ers.

 
Rob0729 said:
Whether the Browns' report is true, it is a fact that there were several teams interested in Garoppolo the offseason before he was traded and the Patriots made it clear they wouldn't trade him even for four fourth round picks.

And the Pats expected Garoppolo to play that game against Buffalo (I think) with the sprained AC joint. So I don't know if Belichick and the coaching staff would have agreed with you about him not being able to play effectively. And Martellus Bennett and Jullian Edelman called him a b*tch for not playing through the shoulder injury. Well, Bennett actually used the word b*tch and Jules just agreed with him.
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I am not a Garoppolo defender at all. Just making the point that as soon as I hear AC joint, I know the QBs accuracy is going to be severely impacted.

Did Brady ripping the tendon in his hand for the Super Bowl impact their decision to hold on? Could they have done better than a early to mid 2nd round pick? I totally doubt they were offered a 1st rounder by Cleveland in the offseason.

Cleveland was coming off a 1-15 record. They would have traded their #1 pick with an abysmal record like that? Especially with the QBs that were coming out of that draft? Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson? Hard to believe.
 
upstater1 said:
I am not a Garoppolo defender at all. Just making the point that as soon as I hear AC joint, I know the QBs accuracy is going to be severely impacted.

Did Brady ripping the tendon in his hand for the Super Bowl impact their decision to hold on? Could they have done better than a early to mid 2nd round pick? I totally doubt they were offered a 1st rounder by Cleveland in the offseason.

Cleveland was coming off a 1-15 record. They would have traded their #1 pick with an abysmal record like that? Especially with the QBs that were coming out of that draft? Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson? Hard to believe.
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I just posted that Schefter reported in April of 2017 that the Browns did call the Pats about trading for Garoppolo. So they were pretty much considering making Garoppolo their starting QB. There is no way they would trade for Garoppolo and then take a QB in the first round.

Besides, the belief back in 2017 was that it was a horrible draft for QBs. Mayfield wasn't even considered the first pick until very close to the draft. You are looking at it based on what these QBs have become and not what people thought about them back then. People laughed at the Bills for taking Allen back then. If you go back and look at the scouting prior to the 2017 draft, you will see some of experts believing none of the QBs were really worthy of first round picks.
 
Rob0729 said:
Schefter reported that the Patriots wouldn't trade Garoppolo for four first round picks. Here is a Tweet from Schefter from April of 2017 saying the Pats received calls for Garoppolo from the Browns and Pats told them that Garoppolo was not available for trade.



I cannot find video of him saying the thing about four first rounders, but here is Kirk Minahane quoting Schefter at the time Jimmy G was traded to the 49ers.

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Like I said, why would we trust someone like Minihane.

BTW, look at the timing of the Schefter tweet. He said the Browns inquired about a trade the previous night. Well, the previous night was the night of the NFL draft. The Browns had 2 picks. The #1 pick in the entire draft and a late 1st round pick that became Jabrill Peppers.
 
upstater1 said:
Like I said, why would we trust someone like Minihane.

BTW, look at the timing of the Schefter tweet. He said the Browns inquired about a trade the previous night. Well, the previous night was the night of the NFL draft. The Browns had 2 picks. The #1 pick in the entire draft and a late 1st round pick that became Jabrill Peppers.
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I don't need to trust Minahane. I saw the video. I remember it. Minahane was just the only place I could find where it was quoted. It was famous quote back then. Schefter clearly said on national TV that the Pats wouldn't trade Garoppolo for even four first round picks. That is how much they wanted to keep him.

Someone back me up here.
 
Rob0729 said:
I just posted that Schefter reported in April of 2017 that the Browns did call the Pats about trading for Garoppolo. So they were pretty much considering making Garoppolo their starting QB. There is no way they would trade for Garoppolo and then take a QB in the first round.

Besides, the belief back in 2017 was that it was a horrible draft for QBs. Mayfield wasn't even considered the first pick until very close to the draft. You are looking at it based on what these QBs have become and not what people thought about them back then. People laughed at the Bills for taking Allen back then. If you go back and look at the scouting prior to the 2017 draft, you will see some of experts believing none of the QBs were really worthy of first round picks.
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If we are to believe Schefter, the draft in question is 2017 when they took Myles Garrett, NOT the 2018 draft as reported.

Look at the timeline.

Mayfield and Darnold were actually very highly regarded. But that's irrelevant since Schefter isn't referring to the 2018 draft anyway. But regardless, the same sources that told that to Schefter also told him the Browns were taking Trubisky.
 
Rob0729 said:
Schefter reported that the Patriots wouldn't trade Garoppolo for four first round picks. Here is a Tweet from Schefter from April of 2017 saying the Pats received calls for Garoppolo from the Browns and Pats told them that Garoppolo was not available for trade.
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That tweet was the day after day one of the draft. So the Brown’s either offered a first earlier or they didn’t. They had months prior to the draft to do so.

There was also the report that Jimmy’s agent Don Yee told the Browns that Jimmy wouldn’t sign a contract if they traded for him. So waiting until draft day wasn’t really an option… or at the very least incompetent.

If Sashi Brown offered a first and Bill turned him down he would have said so, he was unemployed at the time and needed all the excuses he could find.
 
upstater1 said:
If we are to believe Schefter, the draft in question is 2017 when they took Myles Garrett, NOT the 2018 draft as reported.

Look at the timeline.

Mayfield and Darnold were actually very highly regarded. But that's irrelevant since Schefter isn't referring to the 2018 draft anyway. But regardless, the same sources that told that to Schefter also told him the Browns were taking Trubisky.
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Whatever. I don't remember which draft class is which. The Pats could have gotten the Browns' first round pick in 2017 and drafted Mahomes then. Whatever.
 
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