Patricia was "de facto general manager" after Caserio's Departure

[h0c2000]

Bill turning down the Browns for JimmyG should have gotten him fired.

 

[Rob0729]

Bill turning down the Browns for JimmyG should have gotten him fired.

The Belichick's love for Garoppolo is something I will never get. All Garoppolo's teammates saw how soft Jimmy G was and didn't respect him. But Belichick had a chance to get a haul for him whether it was with the Browns or someone else but refused to and then traded him pennies on the dollar in season the following season.

I know I am in the minority and don't blame Belichick for looking for Brady's successor and being prepared to move on from Brady. Brady defied the odds to be a top QB into his 40s. There was no way to bank on that happening.

I do blame him for believing so much in Jimmy Garoppolo who refused to play through an injury that someone like Brady would never question and sat on the bench while Jacoby Brissett played with an injury that was arguable as bad for a QB as Garoppolo had. Brissett had torn ligaments in his throwing thumb and played (and ended up needing surgery). Garoppolo had an AC joint sprain which is no picnic, but plenty of QBs play through it even if it is on their throwing shoulder.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Because he was in a power struggle with Jonathan. When you’re in conflict, you look to your trusted allies.

Wolf was hired almost a year before Caesario left, we also know some about Mayo now, so there was a transition plan already in place. They knew a year prior Nick wanted out of his Patriot contract, but he was denied permission to interview for jobs.

I think Bill utilized Matt and his guys to manage the offense because Jonathan was pushing for a West Coast system and more control. Bill didn’t want to hire an outsider who could eventually succeed him as head coach in a year, or if he did decide to hire an outsider who was also a friend and he got fired after the season, he would be screwing someone over.

There is also the strong possibility Bill or the Krafts wanted Obie but he was under contract for another year at Alabama. Who knows… but Patricia has developed into a pretty good defensive coach.

Bob announced “collaboration,” Bill said in an interview the last few years he was no longer in charge of personnel. It was clearly a dysfunctional relationship and time for a change.

I don't think the "power struggle" caused him to cling to his "allies". I think clinging to his allies is what caused the power struggle. The well of allies for BB to draw from just ran dry. He had developed some solid coaches and front office staff over the years from the initial Pioli/Weiss/Crennell days (McDaniels, Patricia, Daboll, Brian Flores, etc.) but eventually they hit a lull. The generational divide between BB and young coaches/scouts got wider. He was always inclined to go with his "allies" even back in his prime years, but as time went on there were less and less qualified allies so the decisions he was empowering them to make got worse and worse and eventually the results followed so ownership stepped in and was like this has to change.

Basically I think the order was flipped from what you say. I don't think ownership stepped in on BB and tried to curtail his decision making power until the decisions got so bad that they had to as responsible owners of the team. But honestly, they didn't have the stones to fire him once it was seemingly apparent in the building it wasn't working anymore, so they let it bleed slow for a few years before just ripping the band-aid off.

Love BB and all he did for us. But despite the whole obsession with him having "final say" what made that work was that he actually trusted the people around him and they were qualified. Over time, the brain trust around him depleted and the results cratered. He was unwilling or incapable of recognizing that there weren't enough of "his guys" to operate in a silo anymore and also unwilling/incapable of opening up for qualified outside voices. That's what lead to bad decisions which led to ownership needing to try and step in and force things on him.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

The Belichick's love for Garoppolo is something I will never get. All Garoppolo's teammates saw how soft Jimmy G was and didn't respect him. But Belichick had a chance to get a haul for him whether it was with the Browns or someone else but refused to and then traded him pennies on the dollar in season the following season.

I know I am in the minority and don't blame Belichick for looking for Brady's successor and being prepared to move on from Brady. Brady defied the odds to be a top QB into his 40s. There was no way to bank on that happening.

I do blame him for believing so much in Jimmy Garoppolo who refused to play through an injury that someone like Brady would never question and sat on the bench while Jacoby Brissett played with an injury that was arguable as bad for a QB as Garoppolo had. Brissett had torn ligaments in his throwing thumb and played (and ended up needing surgery). Garoppolo had an AC joint sprain which is no picnic, but plenty of QBs play through it even if it is on their throwing shoulder.

Some of it I think is just one in the hand is worth two in the bush. You can criticize Jimmy G, but it's soooooo hard to find a viable starting QB. The Pats were never going to pick high enough or realistically be able to trade up super high for a QB while Brady was there. BB wasn't the type to "tank" post Brady either and deal with down years to draft high for the next guy. Plenty of valid Jimmy G criticisms but realistically how good are the odds of finding a QB better than him without picking a true blue chip guy at the top of the draft?

I think what he wanted to avoid was letting Jimmy G go, Brady falls off a cliff one year later and then he spends 5 years just looking for someone as decent as Jimmy G was even. He didn't want to be post-Ben Tomlin with the Steelers shuffling through a bunch of even worse options when he thought he has a "decent enough" guy in Jimmy G.

 

[Wozzy]

I don't think the "power struggle" caused him to cling to his "allies". I think clinging to his allies is what caused the power struggle. The well of allies for BB to draw from just ran dry. He had developed some solid coaches and front office staff over the years from the initial Pioli/Weiss/Crennell days (McDaniels, Patricia, Daboll, Brian Flores, etc.) but eventually they hit a lull. The generational divide between BB and young coaches/scouts got wider. He was always inclined to go with his "allies" even back in his prime years, but as time went on there were less and less qualified allies so the decisions he was empowering them to make got worse and worse and eventually the results followed so ownership stepped in and was like this has to change.

Basically I think the order was flipped from what you say. I don't think ownership stepped in on BB and tried to curtail his decision making power until the decisions got so bad that they had to as responsible owners of the team. But honestly, they didn't have the stones to fire him once it was seemingly apparent in the building it wasn't working anymore, so they let it bleed slow for a few years before just ripping the band-aid off.

Love BB and all he did for us. But despite the whole obsession with him having "final say" what made that work was that he actually trusted the people around him and they were qualified. Over time, the brain trust around him depleted and the results cratered. He was unwilling or incapable of recognizing that there weren't enough of "his guys" to operate in a silo anymore and also unwilling/incapable of opening up for qualified outside voices. That's what lead to bad decisions which led to ownership needing to try and step in and force things on him.

I don't disagree there was brain drain in the coaching staff. We saw the same thing after the early dynasty, the big difference is Bob was young and attached at the hip with Bill. It was going to take time to infuse and train a new staff of coaches.

Young coaches don't just gain magic powers to know everything Bill knows the moment they get hired. We saw it in real time. Patricia wasn't a good defensive coordinator when he was first handed the reins. Brian Flores took a season to figure it out. Josh McDaniels was a poor run offense coordinator early on, he needed to learn. This is true of the personnel guys as well.

I don't think Jonathan saw a future with Bill and Bob was just a figurehead, so he wanted to move on. The glee we saw in Bill's face while Mac Jones was melting down (again) overseas against the Colts was too obvious. If Bill didn't want Mac in the first round, he was overruled... then don't be surprised when he shoves it in your face later. These billionaires have egos, they hate to get embarrassed.

 

[Rob0729]

Think @Family nailed it here... Trust.

Bills circle had shrunk so much by then, he only wanted to work with people he felt were loyal to him. Not the team per se. To him.

But that is what led to his downfall. When you put loyalty over experience, knowledge, competence, etc., you are setting yourself up for failure.

 

[p8ryts]

I was never a big Patricia guy, mainly because of his defensive style. I preferred an aggressive style like Flores, while Patricia's sat back and reacted. However, when he was OC, the offense was commencing the end of year stride and the team was competitive and if they had had a QB who could complete a check down or not fumble, they would have been in the playoffs. The OC stint was a blow to his reputation. He seems to have resurfaced better than ever at OSU. I wish him future success.

 

[Pape]

But that is what led to his downfall. When you put loyalty over experience, knowledge, competence, etc., you are setting yourself up for failure.

it was one aspect... and never said it was smart.

 

[jmt57]

Getting back to the original post - Ian has a pretty good article today on Matt Patricia:

Former Patriots Staffer Reveals Surprising Person Behind Two Key Player Cornerstone Additions in 2021 | PatsFans.com

In a surprising twist, former Patriots staffer Joe Kim credits Matt Patricia for the 2021 draft selections of Rhamondre Stevenson and Christian Barmore.

www.patsfans.com

 

[rkarp1]

Because he was in a power struggle with Jonathan. When you’re in conflict, you look to your trusted allies.

Wolf was hired almost a year before Caesario left, we also know some about Mayo now, so there was a transition plan already in place. They knew a year prior Nick wanted out of his Patriot contract, but he was denied permission to interview for jobs.

I think Bill utilized Matt and his guys to manage the offense because Jonathan was pushing for a West Coast system and more control. Bill didn’t want to hire an outsider who could eventually succeed him as head coach in a year, or if he did decide to hire an outsider who was also a friend and he got fired after the season, he would be screwing someone over.

There is also the strong possibility Bill or the Krafts wanted Obie but he was under contract for another year at Alabama. Who knows… but Patricia has developed into a pretty good defensive coach.

Bob announced “collaboration,” Bill said in an interview the last few years he was no longer in charge of personnel. It was clearly a dysfunctional relationship and time for a change.

he wasn't in a power struggle with JK.

JK: Bill, listen to the staff. Bill listen to your scouts.

Bill: No. I do thing my way. Or I walk away

JK: Ok

 

[Wozzy]

he wasn't in a power struggle with JK.

JK: Bill, listen to the staff. Bill listen to your scouts.

Bill: No. I do thing my way. Or I walk away

JK: Ok

Things were a certain way for two decades then they changed. Bill and Bob both said so.

Bob lost his fastball around the strip mall incident, Jonathan took on a larger role.

You’re an unquestioned BB hater, nobody is coming to you for accuracy or honesty about the situation.

 

[rkarp1]

Things were a certain way for two decades then they changed. Bill and Bob both said so.

Bob lost his fastball around the strip mall incident, Jonathan took on a larger role.

You’re an unquestioned BB hater, nobody is coming to you for accuracy or honesty about the situation.

just telling the truth
it's been reported that in Bill's contract he had final and absolute say over all football decisions. if he did not have that, his contract voided.
Bob has repeatedly said Bill had total control

what more do you need to acknowledge JK was not muscling Bill?

 

[Ross12]

"We all"? Hello? Hello?

My take has never changed. Patricia is limited as anyone is, but he is a good football coach. Look at him at Ohio State. Patricia's worse performance was as OC, but he was still better than Bill O'Brien or AVP (look at the stats). Pats players and coaches like Matt, only the Boston Media took out the knives.

Generalizing a bit by me, certainly. You have always been a consistent advocate for Patricia’s offensive performance, at least as far as it not being as bad as claimed.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Patricia's biggest error was yelling at Detroit media on day 1. LOL.

The funny thing about him is that he used to stack WRs and have them run routes in the same area. And we laughed at him for it.

But then in the ensuing years I've seen teams design their offense the exact same way. I now tend to think Patricia was modeling an offense he would hate to coach against as a defensive coordinator, and judging by how well Seattle used that play all last year, I can see why defenses hate it.

It just seems so dangerous and goofy, however.

Just like @Ross12 , you are generalizing with "we laughed at him". There are some of us that recognized that Matt has him limitations, like everyone does, but overall he is a smart football guy. Matt is probably not a head coach, and maybe not an offensive coordinator, but overall he is a really good football coach respected by the other coaches that work with him.

When judging a coach, look at what other coaches say. Other coaches at the Patriots all like Patricia. Only the Boston Sports Media disliked Matt, and then PatsFans posters piled on.

 

[upstater1]

Bill turning down the Browns for JimmyG should have gotten him fired.

And you actually believe this story?

Lynch talked about Jimmy G. on Spring of 2017, and by that fall Jimmy was traded.

Yet people think Jimmy G. could've been traded for the 4th pick in the draft! of 2018!

 

[upstater1]

Bill turning down the Browns for JimmyG should have gotten him fired.

AND, if you fired him for that, you think we win another Super Bowl?

 

[upstater1]

The Belichick's love for Garoppolo is something I will never get. All Garoppolo's teammates saw how soft Jimmy G was and didn't respect him. But Belichick had a chance to get a haul for him whether it was with the Browns or someone else but refused to and then traded him pennies on the dollar in season the following season.

I know I am in the minority and don't blame Belichick for looking for Brady's successor and being prepared to move on from Brady. Brady defied the odds to be a top QB into his 40s. There was no way to bank on that happening.

I do blame him for believing so much in Jimmy Garoppolo who refused to play through an injury that someone like Brady would never question and sat on the bench while Jacoby Brissett played with an injury that was arguable as bad for a QB as Garoppolo had. Brissett had torn ligaments in his throwing thumb and played (and ended up needing surgery). Garoppolo had an AC joint sprain which is no picnic, but plenty of QBs play through it even if it is on their throwing shoulder.

We take this as gospel somehow.

I saw that report of the 2018 draft, but the timeline doesn't match.

Garoppolo was traded in 2017. So if Belichick was offered that by the Browns, it had to be shortly before he traded Jimmy G. He wasn't holding onto him. Look at the timeline.

I agree about Jimmy G. being made of glass but I've yet to see a QB play through an AC Joint sprain and be effective.

 

[upstater1]

Some of it I think is just one in the hand is worth two in the bush. You can criticize Jimmy G, but it's soooooo hard to find a viable starting QB. The Pats were never going to pick high enough or realistically be able to trade up super high for a QB while Brady was there. BB wasn't the type to "tank" post Brady either and deal with down years to draft high for the next guy. Plenty of valid Jimmy G criticisms but realistically how good are the odds of finding a QB better than him without picking a true blue chip guy at the top of the draft?

I think what he wanted to avoid was letting Jimmy G go, Brady falls off a cliff one year later and then he spends 5 years just looking for someone as decent as Jimmy G was even. He didn't want to be post-Ben Tomlin with the Steelers shuffling through a bunch of even worse options when he thought he has a "decent enough" guy in Jimmy G.

There are so many conflicting stories about what went down but I've yet to understand how or why GM Lynch would lie about his conversations with Belichick. It seems absurd that he would. It's far more likely that Wickersham's story was incorrect and that Belichick was not averse to trading Jimmy G. at the proper time (2017 season).

I agree with you that he expected Jimmy to take over but when there was no fall off in Brady, he traded him that very same year.

 

[upstater1]

But that is what led to his downfall. When you put loyalty over experience, knowledge, competence, etc., you are setting yourself up for failure.

In the end, it was a mutiny.

Belichick was totally justified. Having your coordinators refuse to speak to you and instead make the locker room intolerable is exactly what he didn't want.

Let's face the truth: in the Dynasty series, Kraft was up front about wanting to fire Belichick multiple times, not only 2x early on after their 5-11 season, but also in 2014, and again in 2017, and after 2019 when Brady left and he had to talk Jonathan out of it, who was pushing for it. It's clear what Belichick was facing from the Krafts, and it was the same exact story as what happened to Parcells and the Krafts. They did not trust each other.

As for the downfall, a talent decline is what lead to the downfall. It wa a miracle that team won 10 and 7 or 8 in '21 and '22, when they were cutting the old guard.

 

[upstater1]

just telling the truth
it's been reported that in Bill's contract he had final and absolute say over all football decisions. if he did not have that, his contract voided.
Bob has repeatedly said Bill had total control

what more do you need to acknowledge JK was not muscling Bill?

LOL, moving Guerrero into the locker room again, who was telling players to ignore the coaches, installing Mayo who created a mutiny, telling the media in a press conference that he told Bill he would have to collaborate? Did you even watch the Dynasty? Kraft was totally up front about it. How can you say it wasn't happening when Kraft said it was.