Groves talks 3-4, good stuff

[jeffbiologist]

Well put - I've been on the Clady bandwagon for a while (I'm mainly working under the assumption Gholston won't be there) and I see Clady as the remaining guy with the highest upside. But pass-rushing has to be the priority for this team as I see it, and I've moved on from selecting based on potential (Clady) and now think they have to go with immediate impact (Gholston, Groves).

They can work with the CBs they have now if they add a pass rushing beast, and the best option for this team are going to be found in the first round. If they don't use the first to select a pass rusher, then they'd be banking on a guy like Avril being there at 62, and that doesn't seem as likely anymore.

They can get solid CBs in rounds 2 or 3, or if they can trade down from 7, they probably have the assets to move up and get a guy like Cason.

I really think the theme for the D is throwing the "bend, don't break" notion out the window - it was perfect for out teams in the past. But the offense has changed, and the more possessions Brady and Moss have to work with, the more likely the Pats dominate any given team.

They can add Groves to the edge, let AD move inside on passing downs to either work in coverage or rush from the inside. It would allow for great flexibility, keep teams from knowing where the rush was coming from. The D could be lethal.

Well I dont think you need anything like a major overhaul, we did go 18-1!! Now we know that a team like the Giants creates a matchup problem. To solve this they could just as easily take a OL #1.... but you take the best player when you get a chance that high(7)...and the fact that Mankins contract comin up next year could be way to avoid that possible headache....

 

[BionicPatriot]

BM is saying exactly what I'm thinking. Adding speed to this front 7 is no "over haul" it's simply improving. I understand all the intrigue with Clady, I think he'll be great as well. but this is just one of those cases where you gotta see more then just talent. You draft Clady you make a good OL possibly great. You draft Gholston or Groves, your helping a lacking pass rush. I personally want Gholston just for the upside. That said, I'd be fine with Groves as well. I'm not sure at #7 though, that's a lot of dough.

 

[miDeuce]

I'm with you guys, I'd be happy with Groves at #7. Trading down would worry me a bit that someone else would snag him. The other conversion project Derrick Harvey doesn't have that edge that Groves does. Did anyone else read Groves bio on NFL.com? He talks about how he just doesn't like quarterbacks, it's kinda funny and makes me want him even more.

 

[sebman2112]

I'm with you guys, I'd be happy with Groves at #7. Trading down would worry me a bit that someone else would snag him. The other conversion project Derrick Harvey doesn't have that edge that Groves does. Did anyone else read Groves bio on NFL.com? He talks about how he just doesn't like quarterbacks, it's kinda funny and makes me want him even more.

Groves is an affable sort, frequently smiling and cracking jokes. But the Auburn defensive end does have one group of guys he just doesn't care for: quarterbacks. "I just really don't have a liking for them," Groves said. "You can't hit them in practice. You have to stay off them. They don't do too much running. "I don't like quarterbacks, period. I don't know why."

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/quentin-groves?id=240

My favorite part of that Profile?

Compares To: DeMARCUS WARE-Dallas...Much like the Chargers' Shawne Merriman and Ware, Groves has that explosive quickness and outstanding suddenness to wreak havoc in the backfield. He is a perfect fit for a hybrid outside linebacker/rush end position in a 3-4 defensive scheme and like Merriman and Ware, he could thrive if allowed to play in a stand-up position. He was having a banner senior campaign before dislocating several toes, but with his balance and body control, along with lateral movement, he should have no problems adjusting to playing off the line. With so much emphasis on pressuring the pocket and getting to the quarterback in the NFL, there is no other player in this draft that can match Groves' pass rushing ability.

 

[JoePats]

seb, why would McShay have him all down to 60 in his mock? In this day in age where there are restrictions on cornerbacks and what they can do to receivers, the pass rusher is the most important part of a defense. The best pass rusher should be a first round pick.

 

[BradyManny]

seb, why would McShay have him all down to 60 in his mock? In this day in age where there are restrictions on cornerbacks and what they can do to receivers, the pass rusher is the most important part of a defense. The best pass rusher should be a first round pick.

I'm with you, and I'm curious to hear Sebmans reply.

As I mentioned before, my guess is that Groves has more value to the 3-4 teams. That might have something to do with it. Reading some mock drafts and some Niners fans comments, he's not getting by them, and a lot of folks have said he wouldn't get by Jax either. He's most certainly not making it out of the first round.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Any thoughts on Bryan Kehl from BYU? Is he just another uber-prepared combine wonder?
6'2" 242 4.67/2.65/1.55 26 34" 4.23 6.88
Intangibles all seem excellent: intelligent, tireless worker, team leader. And the skill profile sounds promising: good read-and-react skills, uses hands well to shed blocks. Has only played OLB, though, and is the typical BYU 24 years old.

I watched him once or twice last season and had a hard time projecting him as anything other than a ST demon at best.

 

[Seneschal2]

In the words of Belichick, "Pass rushers go early."

Groves may fit 3-4 teams best, but there's bound to be a 4-3 team willing to take a chance on arguably the best pass rusher in the draft. IMO, he'll go much earlier than his current projection.

 

[mmasterkillah]

I guarantee Groves goes in the top 15.

 

[The Hurricane]

I've been watching whatever film I can get my hands on recently (which I'll admit isn't much, just short clips on youtube and the like) however of all the first round talent available at DE and LB the ONLY players that seem like they would make good LBs for us are Chris Long (won't be around), Vernon Gholston, and Quentin Groves.

Keith Rivers looks like a BAD tackler. Even on his highlight reels he doesn't bring guys down on the initial hit. He does that stupid wrap and trip B.S., which isn't gonna fly for a starting LB in the NFL.

Harvey is way too slow to play anything other than DE. I get the same impression about Lawrence Jackson.

Cliff Avril has some potential and I wouldn't be surprised if we are giving him some serious consideration as a 2nd round pick, however I'm not sure if he will even be available by the time we are picking in the second round.

Meanwhile 7 seems very high for us to pick a corner. Our defensive scheme doesn't require an elite man coverage corner. In fact Cason seems like the best fit for our system, yet 7 is WAY to high to draft him. OL seems like it would be a possibility but we haven't interviewed or worked out ANYBODY at the position. I honestly wouldn't be entirely surprised if we draft Limas Sweed in the case where all our LBs are taken by the time we are picking.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I've been watching whatever film I can get my hands on recently (which I'll admit isn't much, just short clips on youtube and the like) however of all the first round talent available at DE and LB the ONLY players that seem like they would make good LBs for us are Chris Long (won't be around), Vernon Gholston, and Quentin Groves.

Keith Rivers looks like a BAD tackler. Even on his highlight reels he doesn't bring guys down on the initial hit. He does that stupid wrap and trip B.S., which isn't gonna fly for a starting LB in the NFL.

Harvey is way too slow to play anything other than DE. I get the same impression about Lawrence Jackson.

Cliff Avril has some potential and I wouldn't be surprised if we are giving him some serious consideration as a 2nd round pick, however I'm not sure if he will even be available by the time we are picking in the second round.

Meanwhile 7 seems very high for us to pick a corner. Our defensive scheme doesn't require an elite man coverage corner. In fact Cason seems like the best fit for our system, yet 7 is WAY to high to draft him. OL seems like it would be a possibility but we haven't interviewed or worked out ANYBODY at the position. I honestly wouldn't be entirely surprised if we draft Limas Sweed in the case where all our LBs are taken by the time we are picking.

Ok... you had me going until you dropped Limas Sweed's name. Why are we drafting a WR in the 1st round again? If no LB's are available, we can get a top ranked CB instead. And I think that at least 1 of Gholston/Groves will be available when we pick.

 

[sebman2112]

I'm with you, and I'm curious to hear Sebmans reply.

As I mentioned before, my guess is that Groves has more value to the 3-4 teams. That might have something to do with it. Reading some mock drafts and some Niners fans comments, he's not getting by them, and a lot of folks have said he wouldn't get by Jax either. He's most certainly not making it out of the first round.

I've personally heard Todd call Groves one of the two best pass rushers in the NCAA, so maybe he believes the injury (dislocated toes) Groves sustained in 2007 could still have a significant impact on his draft stock?

I've previously said that I wondered how much it would possibly effect him, but he's now healthy, looked good at the Combine, and also performed well at his Pro Day, so I wouldn't expect the injury to be much of a concern.

Only time will tell, but I think his suddenness, attitude, top end speed, and fluid movement will be intriguing to a number of teams, in the first round.

 

[The Hurricane]

Ok... you had me going until you dropped Limas Sweed's name. Why are we drafting a WR in the 1st round again? If no LB's are available, we can get a top ranked CB instead. And I think that at least 1 of Gholston/Groves will be available when we pick.

I guess i should have been clearer. It is very unlikely Groves gets picked before #7 and if for some reason he is gone (along with Long and Gholston) it means a big time player will have dropped to us and we should have no trouble trading down, which is exactly what we will do in that situation.

All I meant to say is that there is almost no chance of us taking a corner or an OL with the 7 pick for the reasons I meantioned above. So if for some bizarre reason all 3 of those guys are taken and we can't trade down the only other move that makes sense for us is to draft the top rated WR as a replacement for Stalworth. Idk maybe I'm wrong and we WILL draft a corner in the worst case scenario. I'm just very skeptical it happens in that position.

 

[VJCPatriot]

You are saying we should draft a WR at #7 before we look at CB or OL... when we have Randy Moss and Wes Welker under contract?? Wow. I don't even want to say anything in response to that because there are so many ways I could tear into that reasoning, it wouldn't even be funny.

All I meant to say is that there is almost no chance of us taking a corner or an OL with the 7 pick for the reasons I meantioned above. So if for some bizarre reason all 3 of those guys are taken and we can't trade down the only other move that makes sense for us is to draft the top rated WR as a replacement for Stalworth. Idk maybe I'm wrong and we WILL draft a corner in the worst case scenario. I'm just very skeptical it happens in that position.

 

[The Hurricane]

no I'm saying we WOULD. If i was the pats front office in that situation I would take an OL but I'm not so it doesn't matter. We haven't expressed the slightest interest in Olinemen. You'd think we would at least interview the guys we are contemplating drafting, no? So OL isn't happening and drafting a corner #7 would just be plain stupid with our defensive scheme. We need corners that are good at zone coverage, this is not a highly demanded ability by most teams. We have no business taking a top rated corner because we have no use for one. They are rated so high to begin with because they are good at man coverage. The corners that actually fit our system won't be taken until the 2nd round at the earliest.

WR is a need we are looking to fill. We have interviewed each of the top 10 or so WR. Is it the need we are HOPING to fill with our #7 pick? of course not. But this scenario is less than ideal to say the least. The fact that we have moss and welker is irrelevant. Welker is a SLOT WR. He's crazy good at it and will be a huge factor in our offense, but the slot WR is the third WR on the field. We don't have a true 2nd WR to play opposite Moss, and thats why we are looking to take one at some point in the first 3 rounds.

 

[dryheat44]

no I'm saying we WOULD. If i was the pats front office in that situation I would take an OL but I'm not so it doesn't matter. We haven't expressed the slightest interest in Olinemen. You'd think we would at least interview the guys we are contemplating drafting, no? So OL isn't happening and drafting a corner #7 would just be plain stupid with our defensive scheme. We need corners that are good at zone coverage, this is not a highly demanded ability by most teams. We have no business taking a top rated corner because we have no use for one. They are rated so high to begin with because they are good at man coverage. The corners that actually fit our system won't be taken until the 2nd round at the earliest.

WR is a need we are looking to fill. We have interviewed each of the top 10 or so WR. Is it the need we are HOPING to fill with our #7 pick? of course not. But this scenario is less than ideal to say the least. The fact that we have moss and welker is irrelevant. Welker is a SLOT WR. He's crazy good at it and will be a huge factor in our offense, but the slot WR is the third WR on the field. We don't have a true 2nd WR to play opposite Moss, and thats why we are looking to take one at some point in the first 3 rounds.

The Problem with your line of thought (and I like your thinking outside the box) is that there are no receivers worth the #7 pick. No Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, or Roy Williams this year. In fact, there are very few with a first round grade.

In your scenario, C Long, Gholston, and Groves all go in the Top 6. But no corner is worth the #7, and since Belichick hasn't worked out a OL we're not taking one. I disagree with that last bit, but I think I've represented your position correctly?

Under this scenario, three of Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Matt Ryan, Glenn Dorsey, Darren McFadden, and Sedric Ellis are available. I feel confident that the pick will be valuable for other teams to trade for. If J Long is there, he's a no-brainer pick. But before we take Sweed or another WR at #7 (remember Belichick says WR is the hardest position to project), we'd probably go with one of the D Lineman, Ryan, Harvey, or even Albert or Rivers.

 

[The Hurricane]

yes you represented my position correctly, and I agree with you at least about the trading down part. I don't see us taking rivers or harvey.

the scenario I posed is quite unrealistic and isn't going to happen so I'm content to drop it.

On another note, if we trade down THEN I could see us taking a corner.

If you don't believe me about the OLinemen read the 2nd or 3rd to last post in the "Official Pats Prospects Workouts/Visits" thread. In there is a comprehensive list of who we have and haven't interviewed and had private visits and workouts for. The one exception to my claim about the OL would be if Jake Long drops to us. I think he is so talented that we would feel safe in drafting him without having him in for a PW or an interview.

 

[dryheat44]

yes you represented my position correctly, and I agree with you at least about the trading down part. I don't see us taking rivers or harvey.

the scenario I posed is quite unrealistic and isn't going to happen so I'm content to drop it.

.

I don't disagree with your overall thinking....I don't think the presence of Moss and Gaffney would preclude the drafting of a WR @ #7, IF there were a WR that BB thought highly enough of.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Another pass rusher with fantastic college stats, is Davis of UCLA. He had something like 41 tackles for loss as an extremely under sized speed DE, not to mention that he gave USC fits.
He worked out as an OLB in the all star games and didn't look that bad.

I know the scouts ding him for not having a scultured body like Gholston, but his production is better than Gholston's and/or Groves.

He doesn't run like Groves or Howard of Georgia and he might be even worse against the run than Groves and Howard as well, but he knows how to get to the QB.

The more I read, the more I think Jacksonville is locked in on Groves, if he lasts that long.

 

[sebman2112]

More from Groves in a Q&A with Matt Maiocco of The Santa Rosa Press Democrat:

Today, I spoke with Groves on the phone. At the end of our 15-minute conversation, I asked the big question:

Let's say after 28 picks your name has not gone off the board. The 49ers are on the clock with the 29th pick. Who do you expect them to take?

"If I'm not gone by 28, then I pray the 49ers take me at 29. And if I'm not gone at 29, then, whatever team that takes me is going to take me. I'm not going to cry about it. I'm not going to moan that I should've gone here or I should've gone there. I'm going to be in the National Football League and I'm going to make you pay. The teams that passed on me are the teams that are going to pay."

INSTANT 49ERS: A lot of what's been written about you is that you're a good fit for a 3-4 team. Do you see it that way, too?

GROVES: "I think I'm a good fit for every defense. I'm a football player. If I go to a 3-4 team or a 4-3 team, I'm there to play football. That's what I pride myself on. I don't try to label myself and say I'm this kind of player. I like to label myself as a football player, so I play any kind of defense."

INSTANT 49ERS: You had a trip a couple weeks ago to the Steelers. You spoke about wanting to be a Steeler. How would you feel if you don't go to the Steelers at No. 23?

GROVES: "I don't want to go to the Steelers. I just want to get that correct. It would be nice if I go to the Steelers because they're a great franchise and a great organization. But if I don't go, it won't be the end of my football career. Wherever I go, I'm going to give my 110-percent all. I'm going to be the best at what I do when I get there. I was a Steeler fan growing up."

Some publications have painted a picture of Groves as a character risk. Groves said the questions about his past only came to light last spring when he divulged information to Blesto scouts.

INSTANT 49ERS: There's been some question about character. Is that an issue with teams?

GROVES: "I know it's not a question any more. Because if you look at the issues - when they say character - there were three incidents where they haven't found anything and I've never been arrested in my life. It's just something when the Blesto scouts came in in the spring, I told them me and my wife had a little argument, that's about it. What else? I got caught stealing a BB gun when I was 10 years old; and the other one was I had a car wreck without having insurance. It's not any bone-jarring things like me going out and beating up a woman or me trying to rob somebody or getting caught with marijuana or anything like that."

INSTANT 49ERS: Nothing was ever reported at the time, it was only because you divulged it on your own?

GROVES: "Yes, sir."

INSTANT 49ERS: When you went to the 49ers, did the subject of your heart procedure come up? Was that a big topic?

GROVES: "It wasn't. The trainer saw me downstairs eating lunch, and he came to me and said, 'Quentin, congratulations on getting your heart procedure done. That's one less thing we have to worry about.' So, I mean, that's all I've been getting from the teams is just positive feedback for me and my agent coming together and getting the heart procedure done."

INSTANT 49ERS: So from what you've gathered from the feedback, it'll have no impact whatsoever on where you go in the draft?

GROVES: "No, I think it should help me. Because now when Quentin Groves' name comes up, they don't have a health concern or a red flag. I think it should help me."

INSTANT 49ERS: Is there a guy playing in the league that you think you compare with?

GROVES: "I'd probably say I compare well to DeMarcus Ware. He's a stout guy who plays the run and the pass as well as anyone, and Dwight Freeney, the way he gets off the ball."

INSTANT 49ERS: I looked up some numbers on Ware. Coming out of college, you're eight pounds heavier, a little bit faster and bench press more than he did. When you look at those numbers, do you think you can make that kind of impact in the NFL?

GROVES: "I think I can. All I need is a shot, and if a team gives me a shot, they're going to be glad they did."

INSTANT 49ERS: Just wondering if there's any knock on you that you've read about that you think is far off base?

GROVES: "I'd probably say that I'm not strong at the point of attack. I read that in one scouting report. They said I wasn't strong at the point of attack. If you look at any game I've played in, I knocked 340-pound tackles 3 yards in the backfield on a reach block. So if that's not strong at the point of attack, I don't know what is."

FYI: The article is obviously in relation to the 49ers interest in him, how he would fit on the team, what Groves thought of his meeting with the team, and if he would like to play for them. There is a little more to this piece, including a few additional questions. The Writer has responded to some of the comments left, as well.
http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/default.asp?item=2190034&mode=