What is our plan for ILB?

[Wozzy]

Who is the 4th? You have Obiazor, Jacobs, Hutchins and WHO??

Xavier Holmes

 

[Wozzy]

How am I asking you to guess? FFS. YOU made the statement that there were 4 rookies along with MUMA vying for the Back-up LB spots. Yes. It does f'in matter when you keep spewing BS that there are 4 rookie LBs when there aren't. There are 3 and that is only if Hutchins is moved to ILB from Edge.

I think Muma and Obiazor will make the team, but Declan Williams or Khalil Jacobs might stick on the practice squad.

I know what they've done so far. You're the one who is having issues counting. Not me.

Then why do you keep saying they've brought in 4 talented rookies for ILB?

If my miscounting is what your entire argument is hanging on, maybe go out and get some fresh air.

The Pats have brought in the following for Edge and ILB.
Edge Gabe Jacas
Edge Xavier Holmes
LB Namdi Obiazor
LB Khalil Jacobs
LB Quintayvious Hutchins.

3 for ILB and 2 for Edge.

You forgot Korey Foreman at OLB.

Xavier Holmes is kind of a tweener, doubt he makes it at all, but I wouldn’t call him exclusively an edge player.

No matter how you slice it, you don't get 4 talented LBs to vie for ILB spots.

Chad Muma, Namdi Obiazor Declan Williams and Khalil Jacobs… you can’t count.

 

[Wozzy]

Gibbens is gone because the Cardinals overpaid him. Much like when the Pats cut Cardona. Both are good players who the Pats thought were overpriced. Tavai is simply too slow - I think he is done.

The Pats had all the money in the world. If they thought Gibbens was the future behind Spillane or Ellis they would have singed him long term. The Cards didn’t pay that much.

Muma is athletic and cheap. Historically Muma has been a disappointment. Can the Pats find a spot that Muma can grasp and play freely and use his athleticism? I doubt it but he is cheap so the Pats will try.

Disappointment? When the Jaguars drafted Muma in the third round they drafted an ILB (Devin Lloyd, Pro Bowl/All Pro) in the first round a day earlier. They also had a vet (Foysade Olukun) who led the entire NFL in tackles.

Both of those guys stayed relatively healthy for Muma’s entire Jags career before a new regime took over and cleaned house. Maybe Jags fans were disappointed their front office didn’t spend that draft pick elsewhere, but not because Muma played poorly. They had one of the best ILB tandems in the NFL. Chad Muma was also considered one of their best special teams players.

Context is important.

I assume Obiazor will make the roster much like Prunty will and Bryant did last year. The Pats signed two new rookie OTs so it is likely Bryant is gone this year. Hopefully Obiazor and Prunty stick long term. Both seem to have plus athleticism and football smarts which I think is a smart way to draft.

The Pats cut Swinson and kept Ponder, they have no problem exposing a draft pick to waivers if the UDFA is better. I’m not convinced Bryant is going anywhere, I’ll wait for camp competition to determine if he worked hard this offseason to improve. Everyone likes their shiny new toys more than last year’s.

 

[p8ryts]

You have zero clue this is true. Was it true of Mike
Vrabel or Rob Nincovich entering year 5? You have no clue.

Baloney. If you bring in four rookies odds say a smart team could find at least one good player, potentially two.

The Patriots got a good look at Muma last year, they liked what they saw… that’s why Gibbens and Tavai are gone.

I have said this before but I will repeat it. In a couple of the last regular season games, he got some play and nothing spectacular took place. However, on several plays, I observed him playing the defense correctly. Didn't get caught inside, protected the flat. He wasn't making great plays but the opposition play was taken away because, he was where he was supposed to be. There is something to be said for that.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

FWIW, Bobby Wagner is still unsigned.

 

[Wozzy]

I have said this before but I will repeat it. In a couple of the last regular season games, he got some play and nothing spectacular took place. However, on several plays, I observed him playing the defense correctly. Didn't get caught inside, protected the flat. He wasn't making great plays but the opposition play was taken away because, he was where he was supposed to be. There is something to be said for that.

I think it's also important to note, the Patriots acquired Muma immediately after the Bill's loss in December where the defense completely let off the gas.

Why this is relevant? Spillane got hurt the game prior, and Gibbens played the most defensive snaps on the team that loss. James Cook torched them for 22 carries, 107 yards rushing and 2 TD's... he also caught a short pass for another TD. The Bill's TE's also killed us in that game.

The Patriots obviously saw the weakness in Gibbens that day and moved quickly to fix the problem.

I also think it's important for fans to know that Muma was considered a special teams ace in Jacksonville. He may have been buried on the depth chart, but being great at special teams and waiting for your opportunity on defense is all a young player can do. There's a lot of untapped potential here.

Jaguars rookie Chad Muma has been 'unbelievable' on special teams

Jacksonville Jaguars rookie linebacker Chad Muma hasn't played much on defense through two games with Foye Oluokun and Devin Lloyd ahead of him on the depth chart, but special teams coordinator Heath Farwell hasn't minded. “Chad played unbelievable," Farwell said Thursday…

jaguarswire.usatoday.com

 

[DaBruinz]

I think Muma and Obiazor will make the team, but Declan Williams or Khalil Jacobs might stick on the practice squad.

If my miscounting is what your entire argument is hanging on, maybe go out and get some fresh air.

You forgot Korey Foreman at OLB.

Xavier Holmes is kind of a tweener, doubt he makes it at all, but I wouldn’t call him exclusively an edge player.

Chad Muma, Namdi Obiazor Declan Williams and Khalil Jacobs… you Who can’t count.

Not sure where you get that Declan Williams and Korey Foreman on the the team. They are not. So, I didn't forget anyone.

Foreman and Declan were mini-camp invites but neither was given a Contract.

Xavier Holmes

Incorrect. Holmes is an Edge player. Not an ILB. He's not a tweener as you claim.

I already pointed out that Holmes was not the answer you were looking for.

 

[Wozzy]

Not sure where you get that Declan Williams and Korey Foreman on the the team. They are not. So, I didn't forget anyone.

Foreman and Declan were mini-camp invites but neither was given a Contract.

Rookie mini camp tryouts. The roster is fluid in the offseason. They'll probably bring in more free agents and cut some more before it's all said and done.

Xavier Holmes isn't a tweener. He's the exact height and weight as Harold Landry.

Holmes isn't much of an athlete, he is also not nearly as strong or athletic as Landry. I don't think much about him so I'm not going to argue about him.

 

[DaBruinz]

Rookie mini camp tryouts. The roster is fluid in the offseason. They'll probably bring in more free agents and cut some more before it's all said and done.

Holmes isn't much of an athlete, he is also not nearly as strong or athletic as Landry. I don't think much about him so I'm not going to argue about him.

Why am I not surprised you just can't admit you were wrong. You made a BS claim that there were 4 rookies on the roster vying for ILB spots and there aren't. You weren't talking about what they would do in the future.

Now you're making excuses about Holmes as well. You attempted to claim that he was the 4th Rookies for ILB when he's actually an Edge guy.

 

[Wozzy]

Why am I not surprised you just can't admit you were wrong. You made a BS claim that there were 4 rookies on the roster vying for ILB spots and there aren't. You weren't talking about what they would do in the future.

I said they brought four rookies in. You seem to think the ones they kept are making the roster. I’ve seen young players get signed and cut from the practice squad like ten times over the last couple decades.

The roster this time of year is fluid, constantly changing. A guy like Declan Williams could be back in a month.

Now you're making excuses about Holmes as well. You attempted to claim that he was the 4th Rookies for ILB when he's actually an Edge guy.

I don’t frankly give a sht. I already told you Muma and Obiazor were my front runners to make the roster. They’re clearly the most talented. Either way, I think the depth now is better than when they started last year…. my entire point. You seem to want to win a debate nobody but you is having. Go get em tiger.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

The Pats had all the money in the world. If they thought Gibbens was the future behind Spillane or Ellis they would have singed him long term. The Cards didn’t pay that much.

Not true. The Pats price different players at different levels. It has nothing to do with the amount of money available. It is managed as a business. Cardona was great and let go at $1M a year because that salary is above the long snappers level.

Disappointment? When the Jaguars drafted Muma in the third round they drafted an ILB (Devin Lloyd, Pro Bowl/All Pro) in the first round a day earlier. They also had a vet (Foysade Olukun) who led the entire NFL in tackles.

Both of those guys stayed relatively healthy for Muma’s entire Jags career before a new regime took over and cleaned house. Maybe Jags fans were disappointed their front office didn’t spend that draft pick elsewhere, but not because Muma played poorly. They had one of the best ILB tandems in the NFL. Chad Muma was also considered one of their best special teams players.

Context is important.

I agree with all of that although you exaggerate Muma's performance. After the Jags Muma went to the Colts and ended up on their practice squad in his fourth year following being a R3 pick. Great R3 picks do not end up on the PS in their fourth year if they are playing well. Context is important. I hope Muma does well. He has a lot of upside - something has not clicked for him. Great guy on special teams, lets hope he can grasp the defense and fit in.

The Pats cut Swinson and kept Ponder, they have no problem exposing a draft pick to waivers if the UDFA is better. I’m not convinced Bryant is going anywhere, I’ll wait for camp competition to determine if he worked hard this offseason to improve. Everyone likes their shiny new toys more than last year’s.

I agree. I wish Bryant all the best too. But when a guy is about to take a 2nd year jump and the team drafts two more guys at his position you have to wonder.

 

[Wozzy]

Not true. The Pats price different players at different levels. It has nothing to do with the amount of money available. It is managed as a business. Cardona was great and let go at $1M a year because that salary is above the long snappers level.

Jack Gibbens was a restricted free agent, if the Patriots wanted him they could have easily re-signed him. They didn’t think he was the answer behind either starter… like I said above. We saw that in the second Buffalo game where he got put in a blender.

I agree with all of that although you exaggerate Muma's performance. After the Jags Muma went to the Colts and ended up on their practice squad in his fourth year following being a R3 pick. Great R3 picks do not end up on the PS in their fourth year if they are playing well. Context is important. I hope Muma does well. He has a lot of upside - something has not clicked for him. Great guy on special teams, lets hope he can grasp the defense and fit in.

You just described Chaisson’s journey and he was a first rounder. Players bounce around all the time.

I agree. I wish Bryant all the best too. But when a guy is about to take a 2nd year jump and the team drafts two more guys at his position you have to wonder.

They know Moses is at the end, they’re suspicious Campbell is a guard… regardless of what they say.

 

[rkarp1]

Gibbens played 100% of the defensive snaps both games right after Spillane went down. He also played ST
he had 20 tackles, 3 TFL and 2 QB hits

he wasn't put in a blender.
the team was 3-1 when he started.
he left here to start in Arizona

Muma never could see the field on defense until the Pats last 2 blowout wins of the season.
the team brought in 4 rookie LB's to challenge Muma. let the best man make the team.

 

[Wozzy]

Gibbens played 100% of the defensive snaps both games right after Spillane went down. He also played ST
he had 20 tackles, 3 TFL and 2 QB hits

If you want to reply to me hit the “reply” button, but you didn’t want to engage me… you wanted to sneak this by me for as long as possible.

he wasn't put in a blender.
the team was 3-1 when he started.
he left here to start in Arizona

The top three rushing totals allowed by the Patriots defense all season came in three of those starts with Gibbens at middle LB.

Gibbens has never made a start for Arizona.

Gibbens was put in a blender.

Muma never could see the field on defense until the Pats last 2 blowout wins of the season.
the team brought in 4 rookie LB's to challenge Muma. let the best man make the team.

Muma didn’t join the team until December 16th and suited up to play December 21st. He was active every game after that. Spillane came back for the playoffs and started every game.

When time came to match Arizona’s offer for Gibbens the Patriots let him walk. Laughable…

 

[TheRainMaker]

This thread should be condensed to about 2 pages at best. Spillane is fine at the main LB. Ellis is mediocre at best, but should be standing on the sidelines. Pats should bring in a veteran to get Ellis off the field. Backups are late 90's level bad. The end.

 

[Wozzy]

This thread should be condensed to about 2 pages at best. Spillane is fine at the main LB. Ellis is mediocre at best, but should be standing on the sidelines. Pats should bring in a veteran to get Ellis off the field. Backups are late 90's level bad. The end.

Terrible takes don’t need to be condensed. Your opinion doesn’t make it a good or correct take.

Spillane and Ellis were very good, the Pats top ranked defense was testament to that.

 

[JayNM]

What bothers me most in this whole situation is that once more we have loads of cap space remaining - 5th most at 35M

We arent extensing Gonzales this year. We arent extending Maye.

Even if we bring AJ, at worst, we'd have between 15-20M, considering some re-work for him.

With this money we could easily get one veteran LB in a 1 year prove it deal. Not an expensive position and it boggles my mind that a guy like White or Wagner are without a team so for. Both are definitive upgrades over Ellis or a good insurance for Spillane.

Also, it would be a borderline miracle if Britt becomes a serviceable player on defense. To me, feels like all our back ups are ST players, which suck

 

[rkarp1]

our back ups might be good. they might not be. thats not an ideal plan for the defending SB team (albeit not winner)
mostly they are new and untested
Muma was here a bit last year, and was unimpressive to say the least
I am all for letting it play out on the field, but have concerns all of them either are too inexperienced, or simply can't play.
I assume a vet will be brough in is due time

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

What bothers me most in this whole situation is that once more we have loads of cap space remaining - 5th most at 35M

We arent extensing Gonzales this year. We arent extending Maye.

Even if we bring AJ, at worst, we'd have between 15-20M, considering some re-work for him.

With this money we could easily get one veteran LB in a 1 year prove it deal. Not an expensive position and it boggles my mind that a guy like White or Wagner are without a team so for. Both are definitive upgrades over Ellis or a good insurance for Spillane.

Also, it would be a borderline miracle if Britt becomes a serviceable player on defense. To me, feels like all our back ups are ST players, which suck

I agree 100%. I also remember that a lot of defensive veterans do not like to sign in FA until July and even August. Clowney is an example. The Pats might already have a deal with a veteran lined up but it might not happen for a few months.

BUT I thought the same thing last year because I did not believe Gibbens and Tavai were the backups, and they were. So who knows.

 

[DaBruinz]

What bothers me most in this whole situation is that once more we have loads of cap space remaining - 5th most at 35M

We arent extensing Gonzales this year. We arent extending Maye.

Even if we bring AJ, at worst, we'd have between 15-20M, considering some re-work for him.

With this money we could easily get one veteran LB in a 1 year prove it deal. Not an expensive position and it boggles my mind that a guy like White or Wagner are without a team so for. Both are definitive upgrades over Ellis or a good insurance for Spillane.

Also, it would be a borderline miracle if Britt becomes a serviceable player on defense. To me, feels like all our back ups are ST players, which suck

How do you know what they are or aren't going to do regarding Maye and Gonzalez?? You have no idea. No one does. Gonzalez is under contract for 2 more years. That could turn into 4 more in total with the Franchise tag for 2 years. Gonzalez hasn't shown he can stay healthy for a full season. So I can understand the Pats being leary of committing long term. BUT, I would rather see a deal done sooner than later. Otherwise, it's going to cost the Pats north of $40M AAV and 120M guaranteed. However, there is nothing forcing Gonzalez to sign a contract extension.

Signing any one of Wagner, Okereke, or White prior to the Draft meant they'd have figured into the draft compensation formation. Now they won't. Wagner is going to be 36 here shortly before Training Camp. He might be waiting to sign. We've seen that with other players in the past.

People are wondering if White was hype from being on a stacked Tampa Team. Philly didn't hesitate to move on from him and neither did the Raiders. Those are red flags. I think White would be a fit, but that doesn't mean Vrabel and his brain trust do. Just like with Okereke. Zak Kuhr and Ryan Cowden have 1st hand knowledge of his play.. Which could be why he's not here. f

I agree with you in regards to Britt. I see him as STs only. Same with Muma, whom I am not impressed with. Both will have the chance to make the team, but they'll have stiff competition for the Special Teams spots from Amari Gainer, Otis Reese, Khalil Jacobs, Namdi Obiazor, and Hutchins.