Will Campbell's a God

[40yrpatsfan]

So, you are one of the very few who hoped that a RT would be there at 28. Even more, you thought that a RT would be there who could be a 2026 backup at LT. OK, hope is not a plan.

Unless the staff is sold on Bryant as a 2026 backup LT, the team was going to draft a LT backup. It was simply a matter of which TWO OT's would fit best and where in the draft we could get the best value.

IMO, Vrabel won big-time getting one of the top Lt's who willing be able to be a 2026 Rt backup and also a future contributor at RT. I find that got great value for a 1st, 4th and a 6th.

I'm happy with the way it turned out. I think Lomu has as much potential as Miller or Iheanachor, with the bonus of being a natural LT who can back up and even compete for that job. I just don't think that's the way anyone including the Patriots thought the draft was gonna go. We weren't shopping for a LT, we were beggars not choosers at 31, and were gonna take whichever L or R tackle that fell.

I think all we gave up was a 4th - the 4th/6th deal was for Jacas iirc.

 

[dliverey44]

And Will Campbell went into the year as the highest rated tackle, despite playing in easily the toughest conference. Then he remained the highest rated tackle throughout the season. Then he remained the highest rated tackle throughout the draft process. Then he was the first tackle taken in the draft. So by everyone else's standards and rankings he was the best tackle in the country but you think he struggled. It's like another poster here saying that he " didn't like the way he sets up." When his coaches are on that 24/7, and would be all over him if he wasn't setting up correctly. I get that people here are very into the draft, and that we have an excellent draft forum, but people shouldn't mistake that for knowing more about set up, techniques, and fulfilling assignments than the people who are actually paid to coach and evaluate those things for a living. Every snap an OL plays is a battle against some of the best athlete in this country, and Campbell only lost those battles 3-4 times (sacks) in 3 seasons, despite starting Day 1 as an 18 year old against the best pass rushers in college football. And he allowed only 16 pressures over the same time frame. The standards are high enough as it is, when a kid plays 60 snaps against Alabama and considers it a bad day if he allowed 1 sack and 2 pressures without some guy watching TV in his living room saying " actually Ted I thought he lost more battles than that." When he didn't allow a pressure or a sack on those plays. It's like a Quarterback following his reads and completing a 8 yard pass for a 1st down, and Billy Joe on his 8th beer in his BarcaLounger saying " he sucks, he had Raheem open crossing the middle for at least 20....'

OL " struggle" on every play, that goes with trying to keep 6'4 255 lb rushers who run 4'5's off your quarterback. If they don't allow a pressure or a sack then they won.

I am pretty sure I never said he struggled. I was just pointing out that he had losses in his 1v1 matchups (they didn't all result in sacks or pressure) and then you try and project that to his potential against pros. You are seemingly taking this pretty personally.

There are things he needs to work on (like all players)

 

[Huckleberry1]

I am pretty sure I never said he struggled. I was just pointing out that he had losses in his 1v1 matchups (they didn't all result in sacks or pressure) and then you try and project that to his potential against pros. You are seemingly taking this pretty personally.

There are things he needs to work on (like all players)

I'm not taking it personally, I have just had this debate before and I don't buy that argument. Every single snap these guys play is a battle against great athletes, and wins and losses are gauged by sacks and pressures, not guys sitting at home making their own criteria for what a " win" or " loss," is. And you claimed that the " losses" you see are used in their ratings, yet Campbell was and remained throughout the 24' college season the highest rated tackle in the class, and ended up the first tackle off the board in the draft, so I'm not sure what it is that you saw that all of the people who evaluate and draft these guys missed? If you want to rate players on the criteria used to evaluate players I'm fine with that, I cited Cam Robinsons 18 pressures in 1 game repeatedly when some here were arguing to sign him a year ago in free agency. But if you want to impose your own personal ratings for wins and losses unrelated to that criteria, which no one else in the business anctually applied then I think it's a bogus argument. And it's not personal, as I have had the same argument with posters here before, and would have it with anyone trying to make that claim regardless of who they are.

 

[dliverey44]

I'm not taking it personally, I have just had this debate before and I don't buy that argument. Every single snap these guys play is a battle against great athletes, and wins and losses are gauged by sacks and pressures, not guys sitting at home making their own criteria for what a " win" or " loss," is. And you claimed that the " losses" you see are used in their ratings, yet Campbell was and remained throughout the 24' college season the highest rated tackle in the class, and ended up the first tackle off the board in the draft, so I'm not sure what it is that you saw that all of the people who evaluate and draft these guys missed? If you want to rate players on the criteria used to evaluate players I'm fine with that, I cited Cam Robinsons 18 pressures in 1 game repeatedly when some here were arguing to sign him a year ago in free agency. But if you want to impose your own personal ratings for wins and losses unrelated to that criteria, which no one else in the business anctually applied then I think it's a bogus argument. And it's not personal, as I have had the same argument with posters here before, and would have it with anyone trying to make that claim regardless of who they are.

So you're telling me that if a OLman whiffs his block, but the play was a designed rollout and the QB completes a pass, you are telling me that OL won?

He lost his matchup and it will be one of the key points during the week to correct why he missed the block.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Ahhh yes, the Vitruvian man theory. The theory that the best way to block any oncoming pass rusher is to stick both arms straight out from your sides, no one can ever get past that.

It's not a theory it's physical domination. When you face the elite Edge athletes in the NFL every extra advantage they have on you will be fully exploited. Campbell was responsible for giving up 3 sacks and 5 pressures against Garrett who rung up 5 total sacks on the day and put Maye under duress all day long.



Just a reminder, Drake Maye suffered the MOST sacks EVER in a playoff run in the history of the NFL. We drafted OL in the 1st for a reason.

I hope Campbell fully recovers and proves he can be a full time Left tackle in the NFL. But I wouldn't be surprised either if the Patriots changed his position for the good of the team and Drake Maye's health.

 

[Huckleberry1]

So you're telling me that if a OLman whiffs his block, but the play was a designed rollout and the QB completes a pass, you are telling me that OL won?

He lost his matchup and it will be one of the key points during the week to correct why he missed the block.

I'm telling you that individual fans creating their own criteria for evaluating player performance is largely bogus.

 

[TommyD4207]

So you're telling me that if a OLman whiffs his block, but the play was a designed rollout and the QB completes a pass, you are telling me that OL won?

He lost his matchup and it will be one of the key points during the week to correct why he missed the block.

Congratulations, you've discovered PFF's grading system.

By the same token, if say, a guard falls down, or whiffs his block completely, or completely screw up the switch on a T-E stunt, and the tackle ends up being responsible for two people, and the QB gets sacked, guess who gets hit by PFF in the grading system?

 

[Huckleberry1]

Congratulations, you've discovered PFF's grading system.

By the same token, if say, a guard falls down, or whiffs his block completely, or completely screw up the switch on a T-E stunt, and the tackle ends up being responsible for two people, and the QB gets sacked, guess who gets hit by PFF in the grading system?

The problem with most grading efforts is that the people evaluating don't know what their assignment was, what their adjustment was, and what the play call was. There is some validity in just straight up one one plays, but that's pretty much where it ends.

 

[Huckleberry1]

No, not quite true. He didn't hold up well against elite competition. Remember the Cleveland game?

And what nfl.com said about him going into the draft bears retelling. In pass pro he oversets to the outside making himself vulnerable to inside moves. When one has a 77" wingspan, the shortest by an OT since measuring began in 2011, it becomes understandable.

In college he had the strength and athleticism to mask sloppy footwork in pass pro, which which surprisingly became more evident as a senior at LSU. He freakin regressed from his earlier dominance.

But the world saw his embarrassing SB performance. There's no hiding from that. It stings. Can't make that mistake again.

And to win a SB one needs his LT to hold up against the best competition. He lacks the length to do that. That's why his future home is LG.

Caleb Lomu is the more natural LT.

Oh, Camobell was injured in the SB? Welcome to football. Ask any player, former or current. You're going to play gimpy.

As I said last summer, his margin of error is smaller. Football's a game of inches. That's why conventional wisdom holds 34" arms on your OTs. Did you notice the arm length and wingspans of the OTs the team drafted this year?

Yep. QED.

Joe Thomas arms are 33 1/2, he was a first ballot Hall of Famer. You are talking out of your ass again.

 

[Triumph]

It's not a theory it's physical domination. When you face the elite Edge athletes in the NFL every extra advantage they have on you will be fully exploited. Campbell was responsible for giving up 3 sacks and 5 pressures against Garrett who rung up 5 total sacks on the day and put Maye under duress all day long.



Just a reminder, Drake Maye suffered the MOST sacks EVER in a playoff run in the history of the NFL. We drafted OL in the 1st for a reason.

I hope Campbell fully recovers and proves he can be a full time Left tackle in the NFL. But I wouldn't be surprised either if the Patriots changed his position for the good of the team and Drake Maye's health.

Word

Ive been in this camp since the Santa Clara debacle. OT was the # 1 need without debate entering this off season.

 

[Huckleberry1]

So you're telling me that if a OLman whiffs his block, but the play was a designed rollout and the QB completes a pass, you are telling me that OL won?

He lost his matchup and it will be one of the key points during the week to correct why he missed the block.

If a a running back bobbles a ball but doesn't fumble it is that a fumble?

 

[PatMan]

I'm happy with the way it turned out. I think Lomu has as much potential as Miller or Iheanachor, with the bonus of being a natural LT who can back up and even compete for that job. I just don't think that's the way anyone including the Patriots thought the draft was gonna go. We weren't shopping for a LT, we were beggars not choosers at 31, and were gonna take whichever L or R tackle that fell.

I think all we gave up was a 4th - the 4th/6th deal was for Jacas iirc.

This seems like a common feeling right now so I wanted to respond. I'm not trying to pick on any one person. I really just want to give anyone who didn't spend a lot of time watching college tackles pre-draft some hope.

I'm really surprised people feel like Lomu is a consulation prize rather than the best left tackle in the draft. When I say "best" I don't necessarily mean highest ceiling (I continue to think Kadyn Proctor's physical makeup and athleticism are generationally rare - but tons of guys with those traits have still failed at the NFL level), I mean safest pick - his skills translate... footwork, size, strength, anchor, mobility, hand technique, and awareness are all there. There were never any question marks about work ethic, character, or level of competition in college. The guy IS an NFL left tackle - plain and simple.

Because there were no physical, performance, character, or mental flaw scouts/media could pick apart his one critique (which just cost him 15 draft spots and millions of dollars) somehow became that he's not mean enough? This was the kind of lazy group-think analysis worthy of a JRE guest. I don't really understand how NFL scouts compared the tape of Miller or Iheanachor to Lomu and come away thinking even though they can't compete against NFL skill and athleticism they're somehow better because they pancaked a guy who's going to be selling cars next year, but to each their own I guess.

Basically what I'm saying is some lineman are bulldogs and that's freaking awesome and fun to watch, and some are clinicians and that's awesome too. Lomu is probably more of the latter, but without the foundational attributes and skills he's ALREADY bringing to the table no one really has a chance be a career NFL left tackle.

But don't take my word for it... just watch the kid...

 

[Steve102]

Joe Thomas arms are 33 1/2, he was a first ballot Hall of Famer. You are talking out of your ass again.

*****ing about losing to Garrett is asinine. Dude is a 5 time All-Pro, 2 time DPOY and a future HoFer. Campbell is a 22 year old kid, rookie in the league, Garrett a 30 year old vet, 9 years into his elite career.

These guys. I swear.

 

[dliverey44]

If a a running back bobbles a ball but doesn't fumble it is that a fumble?

No but if it happens enough it calls into question his ball security. Just as it does if any player shows a tendency to overset, bobble passes, false steps off the line, false start, QBs consistently throwing high/low. Its all part of the evaluation to grade the player

 

[Huckleberry1]

No but if it happens enough it calls into question his ball security. Just as it does if any player shows a tendency to overset, bobble passes, false steps off the line, false start, QBs consistently throwing high/low. Its all part of the evaluation to grade the player

Well, the " losses" you said you saw apparently didn't happen very often, otherwise Campbell wouldn't have gone through over a year as the top left tackle prospect to top tackle taken.

 

[dliverey44]

Well, the " losses" you said you saw apparently didn't happen very often, otherwise Campbell wouldn't have gone through over a year as the top left tackle prospect to top tackle taken.

ok

 

[Huckleberry1]

ok

Those are just facts, sorry if they upset you.

 

[Hyped]

We will just have to wait and see how it breaks out. And put me in the “WC is our LT” camp.

 

[dliverey44]

Those are just facts, sorry if they upset you.

Didn't upset me at all and I appreciate the back and forth. But you are pretty delusional about the evaluation process, so I am just letting you have it.

Scouts and coaches pay attention to how a player wins and loses because that allows them to put together a development plan. During the predraft process they are looking at every play to see a players ability and not just the result of the play

 

[Huckleberry1]

Didn't upset me at all and I appreciate the back and forth. But you are pretty delusional about the evaluation process, so I am just letting you have it.

Scouts and coaches pay attention to how a player wins and loses because that allows them to put together a development plan. During the predraft process they are looking at every play to see a players ability and not just the result of the play

I'm well aware of that, but you don't stay at the top of the ratings if you are having the problems you suggest Campbell had, And I have seen many Campbell critics on this site literally making **** up about his play, both at LSU and here. So you will have to forgive me if I don't give credence to amateur criticism. One of the criticisms here was that they didn't like the way he " sets up," when in reality Marrone, MacDaniels, and Vrabel would all be all over him if he wasn't setting himself the way they are telling him to. And as I said before, the job of the OL in pass protection is tom prevent sacks and pressures, and if an OT can go all day without giving up pressures and sacks then he is winning, regardless of what those battles looked like.