NFL GAME DAY DISCUSSION Week 12 Other Games: Ω Edition - MNF - Panthers @ 49ers

[mikey m]

When you have an expensive QB, it becomes all about drafting. The Bills have not drafted well.

Drafting, finding cast-off vets that fit your scheme and maximizing their strengths, and coaching. I trust Vrabel and this staff to be reasonably successful at all 3.

 

[Wozzy]

One was a tip ball and the other was a desperation play.

Still no reason for the defense to be thrown on by a JAG backup like Davis Mills.

It’s a team game. Tom Brady threw for 505 yards, 3’TD’s and Nick Foles beat him.

 

[Rob0729]

Allen isn't really a better rusher but the QB rush is a larger part of the Bills offense.

I just saying that is that is the only argument you can make. Not saying it is a valid argument.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Drafting, finding cast-off vets that fit your scheme and maximizing their strengths, and coaching. I trust Vrabel and this staff to be reasonably successful at all 3.

Right. And by that point, we need Drake to elevate the players around him. But considering he's already doing that...

 

[TommyD4207]

One was a tip ball and the other was a desperation play. Also the Bills receiver situation is almost as dire as ours was the last few years.

Still no reason for the defense to be thrown on by a JAG backup like Davis Mills.

Defense gave up 3 points (after a turnover), 35 yards and 1 first down in the 2nd half.

Not bad for that MASH unit they ran out there last night.

 

[TomPatriot]

This Bills run is basically the Rex Ryan Jets run. Discuss.

The Rex Ryan Jets had a better defense, but I see the point - playoffs, AFCCG, nothing more.

 

[DoubleDeluxe]

He had more time than you think, I'm curious what his actual snap to pass number was. It just looks like it wasn't a lot, because we're so used to Josh Allen holding the ball.

I'd say on those 8 sacks, 2, maybe 3, were insta-pressures from Houston.

If you read the Bills forum last night, there was a post from a fan at the game. His account was no WRs were open down field for the majority of the plays. Can’t see that on tv, so will not make a confirmation one way or the other. I did not see someone with a lot of time. I saw a guy moved off his spot early and the time he did create was on the run.
The Bills roster is full of holes, bad management and bad coaching.
Josh is not the problem, not even close.

 

[upstater1]

There's a massive difference between saying that in Week 5 and saying that in Week 15, in a league that plays 17 games.

The Bills play far far above their talent level.

McDermott is the one who gives them a semblance of respectability on defense.

The one who should be on the hotseat is Brandon Beane.

McDermott is getting no help from the front office. Those 7 wins are not ONLY because of Allen, but 2 or 3 of them are because of McDermott. They've won those games while being held together with rubber bands and paper clips.

Think about the misery of their drafts:

2020 Epenesa
2021 Rousseau and Basham
2022 Kaiir Elam, James Cook
2023 Kincaid, Torrence
2024 Keon Coleman, Bishop

These are their 1st and 2nd rounders over a 5 year span. This is much worse than Belichick's drafts.

Only James Cook has panned out the way they hoped these players would, although Bishop really looks like he's developing.

Epenesa and Rousseau are mediocre as players, disappointments essentially. Basham and Elam have busted, and Keon Coleman looks well on his way. Torrence and Kincaid may be salvageable, but what Torrence gives them, you could've gotten that in the 5th round. Kincaid is very talented and has finally figured out how to run routes for Allen, but like his previous seasons, he is injured and missing a lot of games yet again.

So, 5 years, 9 1st and 2nd rounders, and last night you really only got to see Cook and Bishop as PLUS players on the field.

This is why I don't believe McDermott is the problem there.

 

[sb1]

Benching Coleman for disciplinary reasons when you're that short on WR talent was not a great idea. That's like what the Pats did to Bourne a few years ago.

 

[mike_usagisan]

The Bills play far far above their talent level.

McDermott is the one who gives them a semblance of respectability on defense.

The one who should be on the hotseat is Brandon Beane.

McDermott is getting no help from the front office. Those 7 wins are not ONLY because of Allen, but 2 or 3 of them are because of McDermott. They've won those games while being held together with rubber bands and paper clips.

Think about the misery of their drafts:

2020 Epenesa
2021 Rousseau and Basham
2022 Kaiir Elam, James Cook
2023 Kincaid, Torrence
2024 Keon Coleman, Bishop

These are their 1st and 2nd rounders over a 5 year span. This is much worse than Belichick's drafts.

Only James Cook has panned out the way they hoped these players would, although Bishop really looks like he's developing.

Epenesa and Rousseau are mediocre as players, disappointments essentially. Basham and Elam have busted, and Keon Coleman looks well on his way. Torrence and Kincaid may be salvageable, but what Torrence gives them, you could've gotten that in the 5th round. Kincaid is very talented and has finally figured out how to run routes for Allen, but like his previous seasons, he is injured and missing a lot of games yet again.

So, 5 years, 9 1st and 2nd rounders, and last night you really only got to see Cook and Bishop as PLUS players on the field.

This is why I don't believe McDermott is the problem there.

Good points. I think McDermott and Beane are tied at the hip. If one goes, they probably both do.

 

[TommyD4207]

If you read the Bills forum last night, there was a post from a fan at the game. His account was no WRs were open down field for the majority of the plays. Can’t see that on tv, so will not make a confirmation one way or the other. I did not see someone with a lot of time. I saw a guy moved off his spot early and the time he did create was on the run.
The Bills roster is full of holes, bad management and bad coaching.
Josh is not the problem, not even close.

To absolve him completely is kinda crazy.
He's absolutely part of the problem.

 

[Rob0729]

sitting down to watch the game I thought there was no way the Bills would lose.

I actually thought the opposite. Thought this is a game they could lose. The Texans' defense is arguably the best in the league and the Bills' offense has been wildly inconsistent. Allen has struggled against really good defenses this year.

And if you look, there has been little difference with the Texans' offense whether Stroud or Mills is starting. In fact, Mills might have been playing better.

 

[maust]

I can watch this all day.

A lot to 'notice' there but the thing that comes most to mind is something that's occurred to me often over the years; It's tough to throw the ball down the field when you're face down on the turf

 

[Rob0729]

Benching Coleman for disciplinary reasons when you're that short on WR talent was not a great idea. That's like what the Pats did to Bourne a few years ago.

The thing is Coleman kinda sucks and Allen and Gabe Davis has a much better relationship. The Bills' biggest mistake was not getting a legitimate WR at the trade deadline, not benching Coleman.

 

[TommyD4207]

A lot to 'notice' there but the thing that comes most to mind is something that's occurred to me often over the years; It's tough to throw the ball down the field when you're face down on the turf

It's also tough to throw the ball when you're hanging onto it, ignoring your checkdowns, and running backwards.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

We're not in week 15. We have 6 games to play, 7 weeks. In the past 6 weeks the Bills have gone 3-4, from up 2 to down 2.

Win our next 4 games and we would be up at least 3 with 2 to play. Then we can be smug.

To get technical — win the next 3, which includes the Buffalo rematch, and we clinch the division. If that happens, we get to 12-2 with 3 to play, the best the Bills would be is 9-5 with 3 to go, and we’d have the tiebreaker by sweeping them.

 

[DoubleDeluxe]

To absolve him completely is kinda crazy.
He's absolutely part of the problem.

I'm not absolving him completely, he still has his bonehead moments.
I just completely disagree that he is regressed to the point where he isn't an MVP talent, and one of the the very best QBs on the planet.
We all remember the years where everyone proclaimed our dynasty was over, Brady was done.....etc.
We went on to win 3 SBs....after those statements.
Josh is not close to done, and the Bills SB is not closed.
This year may be a lost cause for them. We had several years very similar where despite a good W/L record, anyone who watched every game knew the team wasn't winning many games in the playoffs that particular year.
This is a similar year for Buffalo.
Their roster needs help, as does the front office and coaching. I would be surprised if a big shakeup doesn't happen.
That said, we are writing Josh off far too early.

 

[The Gr8est]

Josh Allen should keep his running to a minimum: he's going get hurt bad one afternoon or night. I don't care how Big he thinks he is the hits add up and he's not getting younger.

Remember how awesome Earl Campbell was his first couple of seasons?

He just ran through people.

A couple years later where was he?

You can’t just run through NFL players and never pay the price.

 

[Tunescribe]

I couldn't agree with you more. This has been a very tough 2 years (God are we spoiled But I guess I separate joy for my team, from disrespect to a worthy opponent.

I would get it if it had been a hated team like the Ravens or Colts, but the Bills have always been a blue collar team from a blue collar town like us. Isn't it enough anymore to beat your opponent, we have to humiliate them too? What a culture

@patfanken
Yes, I know what you've been saying and agree with it as well. We both are old-school in that respect, albeit idealistically. But of late it hasn't gone both ways regarding Buffalo fans who considered AFCE dominance their birthright once Brady exited and BB faltered then also left.

During the Brady years I semi-regularly made the eight-hour trek west for Pats vs. Bills and recall being struck by how young their fanbase was. Those earnestly dedicated, long-suffering blue-collar holdovers from the Levy-Kelly era are few in number these days. They've been succeeded by table-diving, bildo-tossing drunken yahoos who pick fights in the parking lots with unsuspecting visitors and consider the actual game an extension of party time.

So here come the upstart Vrabel-Maye Pats and there goes Buffalo's five-year "window of opportunity" -- or so it appears. It's not like they haven't had the chance to capitalize on Josh Allen's greatness or gloat over things like the 47-17 playoff drubbing handed New England four years ago. Yeah, we still should respect the Bills but sure as hell shouldn't feel sorry for them.

 

[TommyD4207]

I'm not absolving him completely, he still has his bonehead moments.
I just completely disagree that he is regressed to the point where he isn't an MVP talent, and one of the the very best QBs on the planet.
We all remember the years where everyone proclaimed our dynasty was over, Brady was done.....etc.
We went on to win 3 SBs....after those statements.
Josh is not close to done, and the Bills SB is not closed.
This year may be a lost cause for them. We had several years very similar where despite a good W/L record, anyone who watched every game knew the team wasn't winning many games in the playoffs that particular year.
This is a similar year for Buffalo.
Their roster needs help, as does the front office and coaching. I would be surprised if a big shakeup doesn't happen.
That said, we are writing Josh off far too early.

2 big differences. Brady was in his age 36 season in 2014. And a pocket QB.
Josh Allen is 30 and a running QB, the kind that runs QB powers, etc.

Turns out, Brady wasn't done, but it wasn't completely crazy to think it at age 36.

To think there's any sort of window for a Running QB post-age 30, when the Bills are currently over the cap, haven't had a decent draft in 3 years, and have won zero road playoff games in this run, well...you have a lot more faith in Josh Allen than I do.

And Lamar Jackson was the best QB on the planet last year, Allen just won the MVP award. And Lamar Jackson is almost 29.

People just assuming Mahomes/Allen/Jackson would be playing into their 40s at an MVP level were mindbroken by Tom Brady. Name the running QB that was better in his 30s than in his 20s. It's a really short list. It's Steve Young, that's the list. Rodgers and Roethlisberger ran early in their careers, but transitioned to pocket passers by their mid-late 20s.

Mahomes, Allen and Jackson have not done that, although of those three, Jackson is at least trying to. The other two have not modified their games in the slightest, and it will severely limit their primes.