Content Post Why does Wingspan matter for Tackles?

[TheRainMaker]

It won't be the first time, I've learned to not question the pros on why they pick someone after Devin McCourty. I was livid "another short ****ing corner" throwing things, just absurdly pissed. Turns out he should be a first ballet patriots hall of famer, a borderline NFL hall of famer (no but it's close) and was one of the better picks in Patriot history. I was flat out wrong. Maybe I will be again.

You were actually right though because McCourty was really bad as a CB. An injury to Pat Chung forced Bill to move him to FS. The trade for Aqib Talib kept McCourty there.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

You were actually right though because McCourty was really bad as a CB. An injury to Pat Chung forced Bill to move him to FS. The trade for Aqib Talib kept McCourty there.

He was good in year 1, he started getting torched year 2.

 

[patfanken]

You were actually right though because McCourty was really bad as a CB. An injury to Pat Chung forced Bill to move him to FS. The trade for Aqib Talib kept McCourty there.

IIRC, his first year McCourty had 83 tackles, 7 picks, 17 deflections and finished 2nd for the rookie defensive player of the year. But other than that he sucked at CB his rookie year and they were forced to move him to S, where he lucky for them he thrived ... according to you. OMG

 

[patfanken]

As for the OP, appreciate the effort. Lord knows, nobody LOVES a long post that is thoughtfully written better than me. HOWEVER, while the OP is a "concern" until I see the pads go on and live action starts, I really think we need to put this to bed. ALL the important posts on BOTH sides of this argument have been raised, defended and countered ad nauseum.

That being said I offer this. What we NEVER really know about any player is what is going on in his head. I mean it was Tom Brady's HEAD that made him into the GOAT over 20 odd seasons. It's the same thing that makes a guy like Jonathan Jones or David Andrews go from an UDFA to respected pros, the mind.

I was an overachiever as a football player. I was a 215lb DT and NT for 3 years in college before I was moved to LB my senior year. I will always remember one play from that time. I was lined up on the INSIDE of the TE in a version of a wide tackle 6, just off the outside eye of the OT. At the snap of the ball I found myself ripping through the TE running down the LOS making the play on the sweep for a short loss. It was a great play, but I remember thinking I had no idea HOW I got outside that block. The easy answer would be instinct. But I found in the 2 years I played after college and the 20 odd that I coached, that "instinct" is the result of practice reps, preparation, focus and mental toughness. It's what allowed a guy like Brady to overcome his MANY physical flaws and turned himself into the QB everyone wanted to be. They guy who knew all the answers to the test. We've been talking about THIS evolution for the last 2 decades, but we never talk about what made a guy like David Andrews go from UDFA into a respected starting C for several seasons on really good teams. What allowed him to him to overcome the physical flaws that caused him to be left undrafted.

So, I have no idea what kind of LT Campbell will become. But I do know that his starting point is being the guy who was the consensus best LT in the draft and had a 3-year career of success against the toughest week to week competition in the land.
And more importantly seems to get A+ grades in all the markers that evaluate the "head" part of the game.

Would it have been better if he'd had a 84" wingspan. Sure, but there have been TONS guys who became great players DESPITE having some physical flaw or another. Guys without some physical flaw or another are REALLY, really rare.

People are making a mistake thinking that Cambell's "wingspan" is a definitive factor in his success or failure. Let's just ALL shut up and let it just playout on the field, with the understanding that he WILL give up some sacks and miss blocks like EVERY OLman does. I will judge him more on what he does AFTER some adversity and how he grows as the season goes on.

He has been gifted with some rare athletic gifts as well as this aforementioned deficit. I hope among those gifts is the "instinct" so see what's happening that half second before everyone else,

 

[TheRainMaker]

IIRC, his first year McCourty had 83 tackles, 7 picks, 17 deflections and finished 2nd for the rookie defensive player of the year. But other than that he sucked at CB his rookie year and they were forced to move him to S, where he lucky for them he thrived ... according to you. OMG

I have no problem having a conversation with someone that disagrees with me. But If you're going to have a snarky post like this, you better bring some receipts. Malcolm Jenkins had to switch as well because he wasn't playing well at CB. It's actually quite shocking I even have to explain this.

"I remember when I first got switched to safety. I was angry. I hated it. I started thinking about contracts and all those things,” McCourty told MassLive on Sunday."

Devin McCourty went from hating playing safety to an all-time Patriots great

Devin McCourty might have played his final NFL game on Sunday

www.masslive.com

"McCourty looked like a genius pick by the Patriots and made the Pro Bowl. But McCourty had a huge sophomore slump in 2011. He struggled mightily in coverage. He lost his confidence and also had a shoulder injury. Towards the end of the season McCourty was moved to safety."

"The Patriots will give McCourty a chance at corner again. But if that doesn’t work out, expect him to rotate playing time at safety."

Show and prove: Devin McCourty

Each day this week, the AFC East blog will take a look at a player with a lot to prove in 2012. Monday our "Show and Prove" series continues with New England Patriots defensive back Devin McCourty.

www.espn.com

"Last season was a nightmare and Devin McCourty does not want it to become a recurring one."

He was targeted a total of 111 times, surrendered a total of 1,074 yards and allowed opposing quarterbacks to post a 104.7 rating when throwing his direction.

New England Patriots training camp 2012: Devin McCourty looks to improve on nightmare season

McCourty knows that something has to change this season.

www.masslive.com

"Patriots cornerback Devin McCourty was giving up yards at a record rate in 2011."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1172566-br-debate-should-devin-mccourty-line-up-at-cb-or-s-for-patriots-in-2012

"it’s mystifying that a guy who was that good as a rookie (seven interceptions, a trip to Hawaii to play in the Pro Bowl) could be this bad one year later."

"It’s far too early to brand him a one-year wonder, but there’s no denying that McCourty has been a glaring liability this season."

For Pats corner McCourty, the whole season has been a turn for the worse

His progression as a rookie was nothing short of amazing.

www.tauntongazette.com

 

[pazrul72]

As for the OP, appreciate the effort. Lord knows, nobody LOVES a long post that is thoughtfully written better than me. HOWEVER, while the OP is a "concern" until I see the pads go on and live action starts, I really think we need to put this to bed. ALL the important posts on BOTH sides of this argument have been raised, defended and countered ad nauseum.

That being said I offer this. What we NEVER really know about any player is what is going on in his head. I mean it was Tom Brady's HEAD that made him into the GOAT over 20 odd seasons. It's the same thing that makes a guy like Jonathan Jones or David Andrews go from an UDFA to respected pros, the mind.

I was an overachiever as a football player. I was a 215lb DT and NT for 3 years in college before I was moved to LB my senior year. I will always remember one play from that time. I was lined up on the INSIDE of the TE in a version of a wide tackle 6, just off the outside eye of the OT. At the snap of the ball I found myself ripping through the TE running down the LOS making the play on the sweep for a short loss. It was a great play, but I remember thinking I had no idea HOW I got outside that block. The easy answer would be instinct. But I found in the 2 years I played after college and the 20 odd that I coached, that "instinct" is the result of practice reps, preparation, focus and mental toughness. It's what allowed a guy like Brady to overcome his MANY physical flaws and turned himself into the QB everyone wanted to be. They guy who knew all the answers to the test. We've been talking about THIS evolution for the last 2 decades, but we never talk about what made a guy like David Andrews go from UDFA into a respected starting C for several seasons on really good teams. What allowed him to him to overcome the physical flaws that caused him to be left undrafted.

So, I have no idea what kind of LT Campbell will become. But I do know that his starting point is being the guy who was the consensus best LT in the draft and had a 3-year career of success against the toughest week to week competition in the land.
And more importantly seems to get A+ grades in all the markers that evaluate the "head" part of the game.

Would it have been better if he'd had a 84" wingspan. Sure, but there have been TONS guys who became great players DESPITE having some physical flaw or another. Guys without some physical flaw or another are REALLY, really rare.

People are making a mistake thinking that Cambell's "wingspan" is a definitive factor in his success or failure. Let's just ALL shut up and let it just playout on the field, with the understanding that he WILL give up some sacks and miss blocks like EVERY OLman does. I will judge him more on what he does AFTER some adversity and how he grows as the season goes on.

He has been gifted with some rare athletic gifts as well as this aforementioned deficit. I hope among those gifts is the "instinct" so see what's happening that half second before everyone else,

Respectfully ken, you're one of my top 2 or 3 favorite posters, idle thoughts was must read and the very first thing I clicked on, but I have to ask have you watched the tape? I would value your insight if you have more then just the stats and an occasional highlight, or in the will Anderson video not his best. I agree with you nobody knows how this is going to play out and it's all just speculation but it's the deadest time of the year and we have nothing else to do but ***** at each other over known sore spots.

When I evaluate a player the first thing I do is read the general consensus get a feel for the stats and type of player a guy is. From that Campbell is everything you could possibly want Tall, Big, Fast, Explosive, Smart, and from all accounts an outstanding worker and team mate. He should be DOMINANT like when you watched Moss or Gronk you went damn there are a handful of people on the planet making plays like that. My only point was watching the film (and more then just one or two videos) I never saw that guy. I saw lots of very good film but nothing that screamed this guy is the best LT in the country and will continue to be the best at the next level when the competition gets even tougher. I don't watch a ton of college football so an NFL caliber player usually sticks out like a sore thumb to me. Campbell didn't stick out and I wonder why when he is so physically gifted.

In fact I invite anyone on the wingspan doesn't matter side to show me why someone so talented wasn't dominant besides "he only gave up 2 sacks'

 

[n1997y]

As for the OP, appreciate the effort. Lord knows, nobody LOVES a long post that is thoughtfully written better than me. HOWEVER, while the OP is a "concern" until I see the pads go on and live action starts, I really think we need to put this to bed. ALL the important posts on BOTH sides of this argument have been raised, defended and countered ad nauseum.

That being said I offer this. What we NEVER really know about any player is what is going on in his head. I mean it was Tom Brady's HEAD that made him into the GOAT over 20 odd seasons. It's the same thing that makes a guy like Jonathan Jones or David Andrews go from an UDFA to respected pros, the mind.

I was an overachiever as a football player. I was a 215lb DT and NT for 3 years in college before I was moved to LB my senior year. I will always remember one play from that time. I was lined up on the INSIDE of the TE in a version of a wide tackle 6, just off the outside eye of the OT. At the snap of the ball I found myself ripping through the TE running down the LOS making the play on the sweep for a short loss. It was a great play, but I remember thinking I had no idea HOW I got outside that block. The easy answer would be instinct. But I found in the 2 years I played after college and the 20 odd that I coached, that "instinct" is the result of practice reps, preparation, focus and mental toughness. It's what allowed a guy like Brady to overcome his MANY physical flaws and turned himself into the QB everyone wanted to be. They guy who knew all the answers to the test. We've been talking about THIS evolution for the last 2 decades, but we never talk about what made a guy like David Andrews go from UDFA into a respected starting C for several seasons on really good teams. What allowed him to him to overcome the physical flaws that caused him to be left undrafted.

So, I have no idea what kind of LT Campbell will become. But I do know that his starting point is being the guy who was the consensus best LT in the draft and had a 3-year career of success against the toughest week to week competition in the land.
And more importantly seems to get A+ grades in all the markers that evaluate the "head" part of the game.

Would it have been better if he'd had a 84" wingspan. Sure, but there have been TONS guys who became great players DESPITE having some physical flaw or another. Guys without some physical flaw or another are REALLY, really rare.

People are making a mistake thinking that Cambell's "wingspan" is a definitive factor in his success or failure. Let's just ALL shut up and let it just playout on the field, with the understanding that he WILL give up some sacks and miss blocks like EVERY OLman does. I will judge him more on what he does AFTER some adversity and how he grows as the season goes on.

He has been gifted with some rare athletic gifts as well as this aforementioned deficit. I hope among those gifts is the "instinct" so see what's happening that half second before everyone else,

Ken, thanks for that. And thanks for all your posts that are so consistently long, well thought out, and well worth reading. It’s always a treat to find you’ve made another one.

I especially want to thank you for this one because it hits on something that’s always been a hot button for me. That’s when I see posts talking about a player’s ceiling. Like they know what’s inside that player, the drive and focus and mental toughness to overcome their physical limitations and take their game to a higher level.

It’s demeaning and disrespectful to the player and their commitment and effort in practicing and honing their craft to say that they’ll never get better than the predestined limit seen by some keyboard warrior.

What was Brady’s ceiling seen as, in 2001?

I really wish it weren’t so common for roster discussions, or comparisons of players, to justify preferences by saying “he has a higher ceiling” when the reality is that nobody knows what their ceiling is except in hindsight.

/rant

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Some of the guys that we had playing OT last year (Forgive me I forget their names and I am too lazy to look them up) had incredibly long arms and could not play. Their feet were slug like slow.

 

[Ring 6]

Respectfully ken, you're one of my top 2 or 3 favorite posters, idle thoughts was must read and the very first thing I clicked on, but I have to ask have you watched the tape? I would value your insight if you have more then just the stats and an occasional highlight, or in the will Anderson video not his best. I agree with you nobody knows how this is going to play out and it's all just speculation but it's the deadest time of the year and we have nothing else to do but ***** at each other over known sore spots.

When I evaluate a player the first thing I do is read the general consensus get a feel for the stats and type of player a guy is. From that Campbell is everything you could possibly want Tall, Big, Fast, Explosive, Smart, and from all accounts an outstanding worker and team mate. He should be DOMINANT like when you watched Moss or Gronk you went damn there are a handful of people on the planet making plays like that. My only point was watching the film (and more then just one or two videos) I never saw that guy. I saw lots of very good film but nothing that screamed this guy is the best LT in the country and will continue to be the best at the next level when the competition gets even tougher. I don't watch a ton of college football so an NFL caliber player usually sticks out like a sore thumb to me. Campbell didn't stick out and I wonder why when he is so physically gifted.

In fact I invite anyone on the wingspan doesn't matter side to show me why someone so talented wasn't dominant besides "he only gave up 2 sacks'

Giving up 2 sacks and being the best LT in college football IS dominant.

 

[pazrul72]

Giving up 2 sacks and being the best LT in college football IS dominant.

No it’s not.

 

[dliverey44]

BECAUSE SIZE MATTERS

 

[WhatJustHappened]

Just see the Cinco crap...

 

[dliverey44]

People keep conflating wingspan and arm length… the two are not the same. Wingspan is more important at tackle.

And sure, it may not be the end all be all… but we’ve seen numerous high draft pick college tackles have to shift inside to guard because their narrow wings hampered them. Not saying it will with Campbell… but saying there aren’t comparable examples is outright false.

Vrabel alone drafted Peter Skoronski and Dillon Radunz to play tackle, and despite superior athleticism they were forced inside to guard due to their short wingspans.

Biff wants to be a successful porn star but only has a 3 inch micro peen… does he have the tools to succeed?

​

Skoronski wasn't drafted to play OT. I posted an article that Ran Carthon stated that he was drafted to play OG and not OT. I am not going back to find it and did not save it

 

[Wozzy]

Skoronski wasn't drafted to play OT. I posted an article that Ran Carthon stated that he was drafted to play OG and not OT. I am not going back to find it and did not save it

False, the Titans were looking for a tackle since Jack Conklin left. They took Isaiah Wilson = fail, took Dillon Radunz = fail, took full time college tackle Peter Skoronski = fail, took JC Latham last draft… TBD.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Skoronski wasn't drafted to play OT. I posted an article that Ran Carthon stated that he was drafted to play OG and not OT. I am not going back to find it and did not save it

Skoronski’s measures were good/not great at 6’4, 313, 5.18 40, 32 1/4” arms. Campbell’s RAS is better in virtually every way.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

Some Folks here were talking HARD about trying to Sign Alaric Jackson...he has WHAT LENGTH ARMS?
JOSH SIMMONS ARM LENGTH?

BAH

 

[WhatJustHappened]

OMG, HIS **** IS LONGER, HE'S SO MUCH BETTER!
FKN IDIOTS.

 

[State]

Did you see TRex Thuney get smoked in the SB by new Patriot Miltie W?

OT FORMULA: Length + Athleticism + Big Ass = SUCCESS.

Which is why Will Campbell is a freakin guard. Team will regret not going TE at 4 inthelast draft. If security blanket Hunter Henry goes down, Drake Maye and the offense will struggle. It helps to have a back like TreVeyon Henderson. But the Patriots have only camp fodder behind Henry and Hooper.

 

[Tunescribe]

Did you see TRex Thuney get smoked in the SB by new Patriot Miltie W?

OT FORMULA: Length + Athleticism + Big Ass = SUCCESS.

Which is why Will Campbell is a freakin guard. Team will regret not going TE at 4 inthelast draft. If security blanket Hunter Henry goes down, Drake Maye and the offense will struggle. It helps to have a back like TreVeyon Henderson. But the Patriots have only camp fodder behind Henry and Hooper.

"Let's project a little pessimism and wild second-guessing before training camp starts, shall we?"

 

[State]

Will Campbell athleticism but a couple of inches shorter. Both dominated at OT. But one is a sixth round pick. Length counts.