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Brady vs Belichick: The Verdict

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This is like saying Bill's legacy will go down as the coach who pushed the GOAT QB out the door when he couldn't win before or after him. The reality is more people will remember it going as long as it did than that it inevitably ended. If Brady had some long career in Tampa or Bill was ever going to have some Andy Reid style resurgence on another team, maybe it would be looked at differently. But the truth is, nobody is going to weigh losing 3 years of Tom (imo only 2 being good) while probably seeing Bill's final NFL game coached and saying that is bigger than the 20 years they had.
Anybody who thinks Bill pushing out Brady only for him to suck and Brady to win a SB without him did not change the calculus is delusional.

Before that happened, most of the NFL and fans here (as proven by the many posts after Brady left and before he played for Bucs) thought Bill was the main reason for the dynasty, that he made a 6th rounder turn into the goat and that he could plug in any QB and win. Yes, a very delusional thought process and yet that was the majority.

That is no longer the thought process.
 
Anybody who thinks Bill pushing out Brady only for him to suck and Brady to win a SB without him did not change the calculus is delusional.

Before that happened, most of the NFL and fans here (as proven by the many posts after Brady left and before he played for Bucs) thought Bill was the main reason for the dynasty, that he made a 6th rounder turn into the goat and that he could plug in any QB and win. Yes, a very delusional thought process and yet that was the majority.

That is no longer the thought process.
I mean there were legit reports that people on the Pats coaching staff thought they had some magic formula and that they could win Super Bowls and be playoff contenders with virtually any above average QB.

There was a lot of fart sniffing towards the end.

As fans it was very convenient to believe that Tom was more of a cog in the machine and that 2008 was the rule and not the exception because it would mean that the guy who was destined to have the shorter lifespan in the league was the less meaningful piece.

Did it change the math that a lot of people who considered Brady a system QB had to recognize his greatness? Absolutely. Did it hurt Bill? Maybe marginally, but his resume is still stacked enough that unless Reid wins 6, it's going to be hard to argue against him.
 
Episode 3

Starts with them talking about how they were the perfect match for each other and that they both needed each other to get where they got.

Chris Jericho the wrestler of all people actually had a great analogy. He called them Lennon and McCartney. With Bill being Lennon and Brady McCartney.

Then comes the inevitable talk of the BS scandals. I'll say no more.

Final decision
"It's like a therapist question the way you answer reveals more about you" Michelle Beadle

Matt light and Koppen said who cares that's just not how we ran our locker room. That belittles the group. Rodney got pissed said it's not two guys.

In the end it was an even 2-2 when just asked straight up.

Then they split it into eras and Zo and Ted Johnson both say Bill more responsible for the first 3 and Brady for the second half.

Then they asked percentage and a few said 55-45 or 60-40 or 70-30.

Final tally they went 7-2 Brady.

I'm copping out and calling it 33 and third Bill, Brady, and everyone.
 
The fact that a certain poster (who is always at the center of these conversations) consistently refers to one of these guys by his first name (and not because he knows him personally), while calling the other by their surname, tells one all they need to know about that certain poster's prejudice/bias.
 
The fact that a certain poster (who is always at the center of these conversations) consistently refers to one of these guys by his first name (and not because he knows him personally), while calling the other by their surname, tells one all they need to know about that certain poster's prejudice/bias.
When you made this comment only 3 different posters had comments on this page and all 3 did that. It's not really surprising why a the people are consistently typing out the more phonetically simple name and are finding ways around the one that isn't. Same reason most NFL fans will refer to Ben Roethlisberger as Ben when they can get away with it.

Hell a good amount of the posts on this thread are referring to one guy as Brady and one guy as "BB" to get around it.
 
When you made this comment only 3 different posters had comments on this page and all 3 did that. It's not really surprising why a the people are consistently typing out the more phonetically simple name and are finding ways around the one that isn't. Same reason most NFL fans will refer to Ben Roethlisberger as Ben when they can get away with it.

Hell a good amount of the posts on this thread are referring to one guy as Brady and one guy as "BB" to get around it.
I call the former Pitt QB "Ben" all the time. 3 letters > typing out Roethlisberger all the time. I've used Tom, TB12, Brady for the GOAT.
BB and Bill but not as often Belichick for our former HC.
 
This is like saying Bill's legacy will go down as the coach who pushed the GOAT QB out the door when he couldn't win before or after him. The reality is more people will remember it going as long as it did than that it inevitably ended. If Brady had some long career in Tampa or Bill was ever going to have some Andy Reid style resurgence on another team, maybe it would be looked at differently. But the truth is, nobody is going to weigh losing 3 years of Tom (imo only 2 being good) while probably seeing Bill's final NFL game coached and saying that is bigger than the 20 years they had.
You're probably right.

One thing that I think will be interesting is if Kraft doesn't get into the HOF. Will the fact that Bill and Tom were GOATs hurt him or help him?
 
Where I am now on such stuff.

It's Brady over Mahomes by a clear but not insurmountable margin, by which I mean I cannot exclude the possibility Mahomes could catch up. Tom has more SB wins, at two places, and a record of excellence over a remarkably long period. But still...

It's still Bill over Reid, but not by a hell of a lot, given Bill's pretty awful work, both as GM and as HC, over his last several years, and several real bonehead moves in regular season games and in at least one Superbowl. Then there are his near blindness to talent at certain positions, mostly but not entirely in his capacity as GM, his far-too-early write-off of Tom's abilities as Tom got older, his selfishly petulant and irresponsible mishandling of Mac Jones, and his unforgivably asinine decisions re more than a couple coaching hires,. I think it likely Andy will pass him by. I would not have expected that five or six years ago. The fact that no one in the NFL cares to hire Bill speaks not only to his age, but also to deficiencies which have been there if not all along, certainly for quite some time.

Bill vs. Tom.: Particularly given events subsequent to Tom's departure, you have to give the nod to Tom by - what? - 70% to 30%.
Once Brady was done I remember thinking how nobody will ever come close to his SB record, but only a few short years later we're looking at that possibility with Mahomes. He isn't even half way there yet but he's still young.

Bill is a great in-game HC. He's about as cool under fire as any other HC I've seen. A great example of that is the Seattle SB finish and how he calmly stood there at the end of the game and let the time clock dictate the play Seattle had to call. I give Bill the nod by a lot.
 
Episode 3

Starts with them talking about how they were the perfect match for each other and that they both needed each other to get where they got.

Chris Jericho the wrestler of all people actually had a great analogy. He called them Lennon and McCartney. With Bill being Lennon and Brady McCartney.

Then comes the inevitable talk of the BS scandals. I'll say no more.

Final decision
"It's like a therapist question the way you answer reveals more about you" Michelle Beadle

Matt light and Koppen said who cares that's just not how we ran our locker room. That belittles the group. Rodney got pissed said it's not two guys.

In the end it was an even 2-2 when just asked straight up.

Then they split it into eras and Zo and Ted Johnson both say Bill more responsible for the first 3 and Brady for the second half.

Then they asked percentage and a few said 55-45 or 60-40 or 70-30.

Final tally they went 7-2 Brady.

I'm copping out and calling it 33 and third Bill, Brady, and everyone.
I've been saying it's Lennon/McCartney for a while. Gerico stole my chit!
 
Not too early to give credit for the next dynasty.

Chad Ryland - 10% for the missed FG that put us in position to draft Maye
Trey Jacobs - 20%
Mac Jones and Bailey Zappe - 5% each
Jerod Mayo - 50%
 
I think you're much smarter than that. When comparing eras, we have to take everything into consideration - and all things being equal.

It's not any athlete's fault what era he/she found him/herself in. It's what they did in it.

It's not Michael Jordan's fault he's terribly overrated. Great player, but there are at least a dozen other guys I would choose before him to start a team.

I think we simply have to look at each player/coach/team through the lens of that era, exactly how the game was being played then, and last but not least, what the stakes were at the time.

It's a fact that modern day pro sports athletes and coaches have it much easier today than they did sixty years ago. As great as Tom and Bill are, I wouldn't necessarily rank them at the top. Would I honestly take Tom over Bobby Layne, or Otto Graham? Or Bill over Vince Lombardi or Curly Lambeau?

To me, Pete Sampras won a lot of matches. Would I ever expect him to beat Rod Laver in a match for all the marbles?

No.
We have an advantage over those youngins because we've seen the players in all sports and in many eras. Seeing tapes of older players doesn't give young fans the same feeling that we have because we lived it and saw which players were most dominant, and not just a flashy highlight reel video.

The other issue I see with some fans is the thought that less teams makes it easier, when it's the exact opposite. When Russell played in the NBA for 13 years he faced Wilt 100 times in the regular season and 50 times in the playoffs. In Lebron's 20 years he might not have half that many games against his top competition. That's a huge difference.
 
This might help h8r.

 
This might help h8r.

Clown.
I meant facts to support my opinion.

6>5

Only 2 of his 5 are considered Superbowls.

The league had half the number of teams for the other 3.

Please feel free to point out which is not correct.
 
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I wonder if years later Chiefs fans argue this.

By far the weirdest debate among Pats fans.
 
Clown.
I meant facts to support my opinion.

6>5

Only 2 of his 5 are considered Superbowls.

The league had half the number of teams for the other 3.

Please feel free to point out which is not correct.
 
I mean there were legit reports that people on the Pats coaching staff thought they had some magic formula and that they could win Super Bowls and be playoff contenders with virtually any above average QB.

There was a lot of fart sniffing towards the end.

As fans it was very convenient to believe that Tom was more of a cog in the machine and that 2008 was the rule and not the exception because it would mean that the guy who was destined to have the shorter lifespan in the league was the less meaningful piece.

Did it change the math that a lot of people who considered Brady a system QB had to recognize his greatness? Absolutely. Did it hurt Bill? Maybe marginally, but his resume is still stacked enough that unless Reid wins 6, it's going to be hard to argue against him.
Reports yes, LEGIT reports, no
 
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