PATRIOTS NEWS Patriots Rookie Minicamp Thread

[Real fan 02]

I've said multiple times on this thread that it can be Zappe (this will be his 3rd year) or any other QB who is not one of our rookies, especially Maye. I'm fine with playing Maye if and only if the OL shows it isn't the clusterfark that it was last year. I don't care one bit about Zappe -- they could release him today -- but I do care about Drake Maye. I just don't see any reason to rush him into action before he or the OL is ready. He's 21, there's plenty of time. If the OL is solid through 4-6 games and the coaches think Drake is ready to go, then fine, put him out there.

I just replied to @signbabybrady and I'll say the same thing to your post. I'm being fair, and honest on zapster. The kids shown ability at times.. however far to often he's shown the lows. Mac was ruined by coaching, zapster had every opportunity to take hold of the job. Fact is we just were talented at the QB position.. the QB position is the reason why we're 4-13 and 31st in every offensive stat that matters. Is zapster terrible? No but he's not a starting QB in the NFL. Drake projects to be what we need at the position. All the QBs will have to earn it in camp.. Brissett and zapster both have advantages just by being in the league and zapster with the organization.
He would be fine as a backup, practice squad QB.

 

[signbabybrady]

Possibly. Your right he's 500 as a starter. But when you tell people you're better, and you will become the starter, no one makes a claim when you're put on waivers more telling of what you really are as a player than anything.

Zapp has had ample opportunity to separate himself. He showed flashes, but then with extended opportunity what he really is shows.

Point is we just we're not talented at the position.. this team needs a talent like Drake if Mac or Zapp were as talented Mac would still be here, and Zapp the back up. I'm not trying to demean the guy but his celiing is the Browns game in 2022 or the Steelers first half last season. His lows are why we have Drake. Just my opinions..

I'm not even a Zappe guy so I don't care much but between Brissett, Zappe, and Milton we need a short term starter until Maye is a ready and then we need the best back up possible. We know Brissett is that short term starter and Milton offers the best option if he could win that back up spot because he's locked up. But if we put that aside and we're just holding open competition for the best available player for one game I could make a case for Zappe.

Zappe has a new coaching staff and very limited reps going against him so he has a tough road. I'd be pretty surprised if he shakes anything up but it's not like Brissett is that good either.

 

[KCSVEN]

- They stayed at 3 and got a guy who they hope can over-come his severe accuracy issues caused by his poor footwork.

That sentence is completely inaccurate.

Play by play analysis and advanced analytics shows Maye has been the most accurate first round QB drafted going back at least 5 years in college.
Footwork is mainly related to power, not accuracy, which is why Mahomes is known for bad footwork but seems to do OK.

Statistical analysis a few years ago also concluded:
"While generally it’s preferable to have more of your throws come with your feet set, once you remove the effect of pressure there actually isn’t so much of an advantage."

Throwing from a clean pocket with bad footwork had no different result than throws with good footwork.
Pressure causing a QB to throw on the move and not set is the issue.

The footwork thing with Maye is completely irrelevant and overblown, if he never changed it, he'd still be a perennial all-pro QB.

By Footwork:
Planted throw: 80% catchable ball
Shuffling feet: 83% catchable ball
Moving: 74% catchable ball
Hit as they threw: 59% catchable ball

By Clean pocket:
Planted throw: 81% catchable ball
Shuffling feet: 87% catchable ball
Moving: 85% catchable ball

How Does Footwork Impact Quarterback Performance? | Sharp Football

Over the last few years, the statistically-inclined football community has gotten really interested in pressure and how it relates to quarterback play. Of course, pressure often leads to sacks, but it also leads to off-platform throws. Intuitively, throws from a stable base are more likely to be...

www.sharpfootballanalysis.com

 

[rochrist]

- They stayed at 3 and got a guy who they hope can over-come his severe accuracy issues caused by his poor footwork.
- By not trading down, they had to try and trade back up in an attempt to get Coleman or Leggette. Had they traded down with the Vikings, they'd have had 11 and 23 and their own at 34. This would have allowed them their CHOICE of WR/OT/QB. They could have take OT, WR, QB in that order and have a better line, improved offense, and a developmental QB even if it wasn't Maye.
- Taking Wallace and Robinson at 68 and 103 is controversial because Wallace wasn't the BPA by all accounts and the Pats already have three 2nd year players at OG in Sow, Mafi, and Jake Andrews.
- Dial has a chance to be in the mix as a reserve guy on the outside, but yes, he's an excellent ST player as well.
- didn't understand the Milton pick and still don't. Especially if "Maye is the guy". This isn't a situation where you'll trade the one for a 2nd round pick after he puts up an 11 win season for you.
- Bell seems to be a Dwayne Allen Type player. If he can give the Pats the same production as Dwayne Allen did for the Colts in Allen's former years, that would be great.

65 percent hardly seems like 'severe' accuracy issues.

 

[Real fan 02]

I'm not even a Zappe guy so I don't care much but between Brissett, Zappe, and Milton we need a short term starter until Maye is a ready and then we need the best back up possible. We know Brissett is that short term starter and Milton offers the best option if he could win that back up spot because he's locked up. But if we put that aside and we're just holding open competition for the best available player for one game I could make a case for Zappe.

Zappe has a new coaching staff and very limited reps going against him so he has a tough road. I'd be pretty surprised if he shakes anything up but it's not like Brissett is that good either.

Oh, your not wrong at all. I was just eluding to the level of talent we need at the position. Think about this. As bad as Wilson was in Denver he was 24-8 last season, what if we got that production last Season from mac/Zapp last season we are a post season team with this defense.

Everyone is at ground zero as Mayo's said and everyone will have all the opportunity to compete. Brissett was brung in due to his veteran leadership and he knows AVPS offense.

I believe AVP is a guy who's going to get Drake up to speed and really have an explosive offense. Zapp will have his opportunity and I'm sure he will find a way to earn a spot on the team in some capacity.. after all AVPs had 5 QBs last season.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

- They stayed at 3 and got a guy who they hope can over-come his severe accuracy issues caused by his poor footwork.
- By not trading down, they had to try and trade back up in an attempt to get Coleman or Leggette. Had they traded down with the Vikings, they'd have had 11 and 23 and their own at 34. This would have allowed them their CHOICE of WR/OT/QB. They could have take OT, WR, QB in that order and have a better line, improved offense, and a developmental QB even if it wasn't Maye.
- Taking Wallace and Robinson at 68 and 103 is controversial because Wallace wasn't the BPA by all accounts and the Pats already have three 2nd year players at OG in Sow, Mafi, and Jake Andrews.
- Dial has a chance to be in the mix as a reserve guy on the outside, but yes, he's an excellent ST player as well.
- didn't understand the Milton pick and still don't. Especially if "Maye is the guy". This isn't a situation where you'll trade the one for a 2nd round pick after he puts up an 11 win season for you.
- Bell seems to be a Dwayne Allen Type player. If he can give the Pats the same production as Dwayne Allen did for the Colts in Allen's former years, that would be great.

I lobbied for a trade down as well, but if they felt that Maye was worth passing up the trade and/or that the risks were too great that their 2nd choice would also be gone by pick 11, then who are we to second guess that?

 

[Zuma]

People have said Mac was overdrafted. Zappe a 4th rounder? Realistic he should have been undrafted. He's a guy that can play if emergency situations came to be. Nothing more than that. There is nothing about his game that wows anyone. He's a JAG back up. Talent alone will keep Milton in the league as he develops. He just needs to put in the work. It's all on him.

Yeah I don’t think that’s the case. The arm strength alone won’t keep him in the league. Just putting in the work won’t fix his accuracy issues. No team will trust him to throw the football. For example: DL Justin Ernest benched 225 lbs 51 times at the combine which is a record. The dude was very strong. Would that skill alone make him a good NFL QB or player at any other position? Negative. Whether he thinks he is an NFL QB or not it doesn’t matter…the position requires you to also have other skills in order to play the position and those skills were absent.

Zappe will make the team because Milton’s only real skill at QB is his strength.

 

[Real fan 02]

Yeah I don’t that’s the case. The arm strength alone won’t keep him in the league. Just putting in the work won’t fix his accuracy issues. No team will trust him to throw the football. For example: DL Justin Ernest benched 225 lbs 51 times at the combine which is a record. The dude was very strong. Would that skill alone make him a good NFL QB? Negative. Whether he thinks he is an NFL QB or not it doesn’t matter…the position requires you to also have other skills in order to play the position and those skills were absent.

Zappe will make the team because Milton’s only real skill at QB is his strength.

Oh I understand what you're saying. But what I'm pointing out it talent is what gets guys drafted, and talent can keep them in the league. The work ethics, and everything else is what they have to have and, apply to NFL level. Milton likely has just as a big a rocket launcher as Drake.

Lamar has talent, he turned into a good QB by work ethics and learning the position at the NFL level. Wolf said himself Milton's talent was just to much to pass up on. But I understand your point though.

 

[Zuma]

Oh I understand what you're saying. But what I'm pointing out it talent is what gets guys drafted, and talent can keep them in the league. The work ethics, and everything else is what they have to have and, apply to NFL level. Milton likely has just as a big a rocket launcher as Drake.

Lamar has talent, he turned into a good QB by work ethics and learning the position at the NFL level. Wolf said himself Milton's talent was just to much to pass up on. But I understand your point though.

I understand but what I’m saying is…all the work ethics and everything else is not going to fix his accuracy issues enough to be an NFL QB.

 

[Real fan 02]

I understand but what I’m saying is…all the work ethics and everything else is not going to fix his accuracy issues enough to be an NFL QB.

Correct, that is what I mean by working at it. Every QB drafted has to work on something. Accuracy as you said he's going to have to learn how to become an accurate passer.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

I understand but what I’m saying is…all the work ethics and everything else is not going to fix his accuracy issues enough to be an NFL QB.

I really don't know how you can say that. The guy can throw the ball on the money in live action, he's shown that. He needs to be coached up to improve his consistency and improve on certain types of throws. People had the exact same criticisms of Josh Allen when he came out.

I would say the Pats taking him is a strong sign that he can be coached up into a good NFL quarterback.

 

[gobesmug]

Yeah I don’t that’s the case. The arm strength alone won’t keep him in the league. Just putting in the work won’t fix his accuracy issues. No team will trust him to throw the football. For example: DL Justin Ernest benched 225 lbs 51 times at the combine which is a record. The dude was very strong. Would that skill alone make him a good NFL QB or player at any other position? Negative. Whether he thinks he is an NFL QB or not it doesn’t matter…the position requires you to also have other skills in order to play the position and those skills were absent.

Zappe will make the team because Milton’s only real skill at QB is his strength.

It's not even training camp yet. Let's see the reports from training camp and perhaps some preseason action before declaring who will and who won't make the roster.

Zappe clearly showed enough promise last season to warrant a chance at making the 53 but that doesn't ensure him a spot either.

 

[Force Zero Boomer]

I just replied to @signbabybrady and I'll say the same thing to your post. I'm being fair, and honest on zapster. The kids shown ability at times.. however far to often he's shown the lows. Mac was ruined by coaching, zapster had every opportunity to take hold of the job. Fact is we just were talented at the QB position.. the QB position is the reason why we're 4-13 and 31st in every offensive stat that matters. Is zapster terrible? No but he's not a starting QB in the NFL. Drake projects to be what we need at the position. All the QBs will have to earn it in camp.. Brissett and zapster both have advantages just by being in the league and zapster with the organization.
He would be fine as a backup, practice squad QB.

Again, Zappe isn't important to me. But the OL and poor WRs are just as culpable as Jones and Zappe. Much better QBs than those guys would still have struggled with no time to throw and no one to throw to. Release Zappe today: I don't care. What I do care about is the *concept* of having a backup QB with NFL experience on the roster. Maybe Maye knocks it out of the park in the preseason, the OL looks good, and the Patriots brain trust decides they're confident they can start Maye from day one. Then that backup QB is Brissette. But if Maye looks like he needs time OR the OL is problematic, Brissette is your starter and who backs him up? Maye? We're going to ruin him too?

Anyways, I've made this argument ad nauseum. My last post on this subject.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

It's not even training camp yet. Let's see the reports from training camp and perhaps some preseason action before declaring who will and who won't make the roster.

Zappe clearly showed enough promise last season to warrant a chance at making the 53 but that doesn't ensure him a spot either.

I hope Zappe has a great camp and preseason and gets traded for a 5th rounder. We'll open the season with Brissette starting, Maye as the backup, and Milton as the 3rd QB.

 

[Real fan 02]

Again, Zappe isn't important to me. But the OL and poor WRs are just as culpable as Jones and Zappe. Much better QBs than those guys would still have struggled with no time to throw and no one to throw to. Release Zappe today: I don't care. What I do care about is the *concept* of having a backup QB with NFL experience on the roster. Maybe Maye knocks it out of the park in the preseason, the OL looks good, and the Patriots brain trust decides they're confident they can start Maye from day one. Then that backup QB is Brissette. But if Maye looks like he needs time OR the OL is problematic, Brissette is your starter and who backs him up? Maye? We're going to ruin him too?

Anyways, I've made this argument ad nauseum. My last post on this subject.

I get it. I just wanted to respond to your post. But yeah.. this season isn't about Zappe. It's about Drake and his development.. moving this organization along into the next era.. getting back to respectability among the league. I cannot sit here today and tell you Brissett is the starter.. we just don't know. We saw how Mac was handled he played and played well as a rookie and took his team to the playoffs so a rookie playing isn't always terrible. We just have to let it all come together in camp.

 

[gobesmug]

I hope Zappe has a great camp and preseason and gets traded for a 5th rounder. We'll open the season with Brissette starting, Maye as the backup, and Milton as the 3rd QB.

Brissett is the perfect veteran QB to have. If Maye looks ready or very close to ready, then keeping Zappe is probably redundant.

 

[State]

You could be right that they should have gone OT in round 2, but it’s not that cut and dried.

No, but it is. Teams are built from the inside out. Just ask the Jets. Can’t send a QB, esp a rookie with a crap LT. Patrick Paul needs to clean up his technique and hand placement. But he’s a warrior unlike lackadaisical Tyler Guyton taken in the first.

Just consider that a man with 36” arms did the bench press 30 times.

 

[mgteich]

It seems almost every year the most interesting position battle of camp is the WR's.
This one is another crowded group - with no true #1 star. I believe Bourne will be the leader of that room, as he's earned.
My guess for 6-man roster: Bourne, Douglas, Polk, Osborn, Baker, Reagor

JSS would be a decent veteran to keep, but won't provide anything that Osborn & Polk can't. In fact, KB, KJ, Polk & Baker are basically the same type of WR. So we'll see. The main knock on the 2 rookies is they're both 4.5+ guys.
This would leave us without a "burner", but TT just hasn't been effective enough to keep.
Reagor would be the fastest outside guy, and be best KR option. We'll see.

Why is Reagor better than Bolden as a kick return option?

 

[DaBruinz]

That sentence is completely inaccurate.

Play by play analysis and advanced analytics shows Maye has been the most accurate first round QB drafted going back at least 5 years in college.
Footwork is mainly related to power, not accuracy, which is why Mahomes is known for bad footwork but seems to do OK.

Statistical analysis a few years ago also concluded:
"While generally it’s preferable to have more of your throws come with your feet set, once you remove the effect of pressure there actually isn’t so much of an advantage."

Not sure what "analytics" you're using, but It's BS,.



You can stick to whatever you want... Don't share it with me because I'm not buying your delusions.

 

[mgteich]

Break it down by position:

So 4 out of 5 spots are “average” at worst and possibly better, and the 5th spot so unknown - maybe it’s bad, maybe not. I don’t think it’s a dumpster fire unit.

Break it down by position:

RT - Onwenu - he had a big market and got paid a lot, he’s at least good
RG - Sow - only one year on tape but got a lot of positive press as one of the higher graded rookies in the league. Would consider him “average” for now
C - Andrews - older but consistent and does his job, not perfect but I would say he’s “good”
LG - not locked down but you figure it’s Strange’s job to lose and they also have Leverett signed and Robinson drafted. Leverett is probably “average”, verdict is out on Robinson still. If Strange gets healthy and stays healthy he can be good.
LT - unknown

So 4 out of 5 spots are “average” at worst and possibly better, and the 5th spot so unknown - maybe it’s bad, maybe not. I don’t think it’s a dumpster fire unit.

1) We have 4 returning starters in a group had lost of injuries. IMO, all are at least OK.
2) We have Jake returning from last year. He showed that he is at least a possibility as a backup LG, in addition to backing up at C. As was said, we also signed Leverett to back-up at LG and C.
3) We have Robinson as a backup RG (Mafi could also return I suppose).
4) both the unmentioned Okarafor and Wallace are possible backups at RT.

AS YOU SAID
We are OK at 4 OL positions. This is NOT terrible for a rebuilding team with horrible 2023 OL play. This is our weakest unit, not awful at all.

LET'S FOCUS ON THE DUMSTER FIRE
This board strongly disagrees with the coaches and staff.

They believe that Okarafor can start at LT. They also seem to believe that Anderson can compete for the job, and be at least a backup LT. Wallace is a wild card. No one knows his future. He could be a future starter or backup anywhere on the OL. For this year, he is NEEDED only if Okarafor and Anderson are not able to cover the LT position.

Finally, we could end up starting Okorafor and having Lowe as the backup (and Wallace as the backup RT). This would be by far our worst position, but our OL would NOT be a dumpster fire. Of course, we would add more help next year, after failing to adequately address this ONE position.

BOTTOM LINE - THIS IS SIGNIFANTLY BETTER THAN LAST YEAR
(2) Okorafor/Anderson?/Lowe
(2) Strange/Leverett (Andrews could even start here)
(2) Andrews/Andrews (Leverett can also be a backup center)
(2) Sow/Robinson
(2) Onwenu/Wallace

PS (3): Mafi, Jordan, Hearn, Wheatley, Steuber