Celtics 2023 - 2024 Discussion

[bresna]

That last play in regulation was so frustrating. Wait, what... Tatum in isolation at the top of the key & taking a 3? Who would've thought that was coming? I wonder if Matt Patricia took over as the offensive coach for the C's?

What was the most frustrating part about it was that they only needed 2!

 

[aluminum seats]

That last play in regulation was so frustrating. Wait, what... Tatum in isolation at the top of the key & taking a 3? Who would've thought that was coming? I wonder if Matt Patricia took over as the offensive coach for the C's?

What was the most frustrating part about it was that they only needed 2!

Yep. Coaching

This team can definitely win games by 30. Can they stay tough and disciplined in the Eastern conference finals and the finals is the question

 

[aluminum seats]

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Ehh I think there’s some recency bias going on. He is excellent but I’m not taking him ahead of Porzingis and Brown if you tell me those guys are going to be healthy.

Is he better than Jrue or our past point guards? Absolutely. DWhite is playing like an All-Star rn.

But if I’m starting a team and there’s the choice of Porzingis, Brown or White? He’s the last of the three I’m taking.

He is a damn good player who especially flourishes when heavy attention is on JT/JB/KP. His best season for sure though.

———

He’s probably more expensive to extend now than he was before the season. I hope like hell we can get it done.

Look at the on-court, off-court stats I posted from Twitter a couple of days ago.

Is Tatum a great player? Sure, but his net rating without White is 0.

Is Brown a good player? You guys think so, but his net rating without White is -8.

White makes every player better, indeed much better, and doesn’t have any bad combinations. He can be a dominating scorer, an assisting playmaker, or a quiet shooting guard depending on the needs of the lineup. He’s also an absolute monster on ball and off ball on defense.

I won’t say he’s better overall than Tatum but I do think he’s been better in 2023-24 than Tatum.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This is insane…none is gonna trade with Brad again.

 

[Kdo5]

Look at the on-court, off-court stats I posted from Twitter a couple of days ago.

Is Tatum a great player? Sure, but his net rating without White is 0.

Is Brown a good player? You guys think so, but his net rating without White is -8.

White makes every player better, indeed much better, and doesn’t have any bad combinations. He can be a dominating scorer, an assisting playmaker, or a quiet shooting guard depending on the needs of the lineup. He’s also an absolute monster on ball and off ball on defense.

I won’t say he’s better overall than Tatum but I do think he’s been better in 2023-24 than Tatum.

Sure you can say White has had a better season than many of the other guys but DWhite is nowhere near the player Tatum is.

Derrick White is playing like an All-Star this year, that does not make him a superstar.

You are saying a lot about how White makes the other guys better. Fair point but if that’s the case you have to ask yourself what would Derrick White be without Tatum, Brown, Porzingis who all take attention off of him.

He’d be a really solid starting point guard with the ability to get white hot and play great defense. Let’s not act like he is someone who would carry a team or be a consistent first or second option on a contending team.

I’m not at all downplaying his performance this season but I’m encouraging you guys to keep your pants on. Every player has great stretches and bad stretches. Brown had a mediocre start but has completely turned it around. Tatum started good and is now in his slump.

In March/April we’re gonna be sitting here saying, “OMG Tatum is unstoppable, MVP candidate”. That happens every single season and conversation of Tatum vs White is going to look silly.

As for “is Brown a good player”? We’ve been through this. The guy has been instrumental in winning many games during our best stretch of basketball this season and you are deeply reluctant to accept what is before your eyes. No one outside of you and some Celtics fans who have a weird hate boner for him think he’s “not good”.

I also believe the statistics you provide lack context. Tatum is drawing double teams constantly which opens the door for other guys. Brown provides offensive and defensive energy and is able to get the team off to quick starts and set the pace with drives to the rim.

Your statistics are helpful but they don’t tell the full story of the impact certain players make and the different ways in which they impact the game. Without context you are providing an incomplete analysis of a player. That’s why you say odd things like Sam Hauser should be on the floor more than Jaylen Brown. No NBA analyst or player would ever agree with that. In fact they’d laugh.

Didn’t intend on such a long post, so bear with me on that.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Sure you can say White has had a better season than many of the other guys but DWhite is nowhere near the player Tatum is.

Derrick White is playing like an All-Star this year, that does not make him a superstar.

You are saying a lot about how White makes the other guys better. Fair point but if that’s the case you have to ask yourself what would Derrick White be without Tatum, Brown, Porzingis who all take attention off of him.

He’d be a really solid starting point guard with the ability to get white hot and play great defense. Let’s not act like he is someone who would carry a team or be a consistent first or second option on a contending team.

I’m not at all downplaying his performance this season but I’m encouraging you guys to keep your pants on. Every player has great stretches and bad stretches. Brown had a mediocre start but has completely turned it around. Tatum started good and is now in his slump.

In March/April we’re gonna be sitting here saying, “OMG Tatum is unstoppable, MVP candidate”. That happens every single season and conversation of Tatum vs White is going to look silly.

As for “is Brown a good player”? We’ve been through this. The guy has been instrumental in winning many games during our best stretch of basketball this season and you are deeply reluctant to accept what is before your eyes. No one outside of you and some Celtics fans who have a weird hate boner for him think he’s “not good”.

I also believe the statistics you provide lack context. Tatum is drawing double teams constantly which opens the door for other guys. Brown provides offensive and defensive energy and is able to get the team off to quick starts and set the pace with drives to the rim.

Your statistics are helpful but they don’t tell the full story of the impact certain players make and the different ways in which they impact the game. Without context you are providing an incomplete analysis of a player. That’s why you say odd things like Sam Hauser should be on the floor more than Jaylen Brown. No NBA analyst or player would ever agree with that. In fact they’d laugh.

Didn’t intend on such a long post, so bear with me on that.

Good post. No stats ever tell the whole story.

I think a lof of fans want to see the end of "iso-ball" and a lot more ball movement. Tatum still does a lot of "iso-ball". Brown seems to be adjusting the best he can. The Warriors are a small team with poor defenders and I think everyone was hoping that Tatum would drive to the hoop for a much higher percentage shot.

 

[bresna]

And that's not the only game you can find that same friggin' play call. Taking long 3's when you only need 1 is just dumb unless the guy is wide open.

I get that Grant Williams made it an adventure to try to win on a drive to a the hoop last year, but this is a new new year. They only needed 1 point not 3.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Sure you can say White has had a better season than many of the other guys but DWhite is nowhere near the player Tatum is.

As as I said in my post “I won’t say White is a better overall player than Tatum.” I don’t know if I agree that White is “nowhere near the player Tatum is” though. Tatum is, I think, a definite top 10 player and often plays as a top 5. White is exceptional though and is a top 30 player. This isn’t like the gap on the NBA rank where White wasn’t in the top 100 (currently being panned by everyone on Twitter.). The positive on White is almost never loses games for the team because even with an off shooting night he is making plays everywhere else.

Derrick White is playing like an All-Star this year, that does not make him a superstar.

It depends what you consider a superstar. If Jaylen Brown is a superstar, the guy who is leaps and bounds ahead of him in every measurable category except shot attempts and minutes is a superstar.

You are saying a lot about how White makes the other guys better. Fair point but if that’s the case you have to ask yourself what would Derrick White be without Tatum, Brown, Porzingis who all take attention off of him.

Good point. I’d like to see White’s on/off. Fact is every player on this team benefits from the synergy, but still those on/off stats with Tatum and Brown suggest White is really a cornerstone player.

He’d be a really solid starting point guard with the ability to get white hot and play great defense. Let’s not act like he is someone who would carry a team or be a consistent first or second option on a contending team.

Why not? Minutes, usage, shots increase and look what you’re seeing now. Go read my posts preseason where I said Celtics are better without Smart because White is a stud who isn’t getting a big enough role.

I’m not at all downplaying his performance this season but I’m encouraging you guys to keep your pants on. Every player has great stretches and bad stretches. Brown had a mediocre start but has completely turned it around. Tatum started good and is now in his slump.

Fair point. Lots of ups and downs for all players. A month ago we were ready to send Pritchard to the G League.

In March/April we’re gonna be sitting here saying, “OMG Tatum is unstoppable, MVP candidate”. That happens every single season and conversation of Tatum vs White is going to look silly.

I hope so. I love Tatum. I would love to see him win MVP. Not trying to knock him here just stating what I see to be the reality. White has been incredible. He has a BPM of 5.9 (Tatum is 3.8.) He’s one of only like 6-7 players in the NBA with a 90%+ offensive and defensive efficiency.

As for “is Brown a good player”? We’ve been through this. The guy has been instrumental in winning many games during our best stretch of basketball this season and you are deeply reluctant to accept what is before your eyes. No one outside of you and some Celtics fans who have a weird hate boner for him think he’s “not good”.

It’s a much larger crowd than you think.

I also believe the statistics you provide lack context. Tatum is drawing double teams constantly which opens the door for other guys. Brown provides offensive and defensive energy and is able to get the team off to quick starts and set the pace with drives to the rim.

“Energy”? Please dude. You’re using an unquantifiable variable to pump up Brown. Dunking over a big guy, screaming, hanging on the rim, getting the bench pumped, getting on ESPN top 10, is still worth 2 points.

Your statistics are helpful but they don’t tell the full story of the impact certain players make and the different ways in which they impact the game. Without context you are providing an incomplete analysis of a player. That’s why you say odd things like Sam Hauser should be on the floor more than Jaylen Brown. No NBA analyst or player would ever agree with that. In fact they’d laugh.

Have you seen what happened recently with the Clippers? Russell Westbrook was replaced in the starting lineup by Terrance Mann. The team has completely turned in all categories.

Terrance Mann averages 6.7 FGA per game. No one is arguing Mann is a better player than Westbrook, but Westbrook is so ball centric and the Clippers have so many scorers and playmakers. Westbrook doing much better playing with select rotations and reduced minutes.

Not much different than my take on Brown. Brown, like Westbrook, is a guy who passes “the eye test” and can create his own shots, carry the load, but advanced stats suggests he’s not even close to the positive impact player he appears to be.

Didn’t intend on such a long post, so bear with me on that.

Good post…

 

[Kdo5]

As as I said in my post “I won’t say White is a better overall player than Tatum.” I don’t know if I agree that White is “nowhere near the player Tatum is” though. Tatum is, I think, a definite top 10 player and often plays as a top 5. White is exceptional though and is a top 30 player. This isn’t like the gap on the NBA rank where White wasn’t in the top 100 (currently being panned by everyone on Twitter.). The positive on White is almost never loses games for the team because even with an off shooting night he is making plays everywhere else.

It depends what you consider a superstar. If Jaylen Brown is a superstar, the guy who is leaps and bounds ahead of him in every measurable category except shot attempts and minutes is a superstar.

Good point. I’d like to see White’s on/off. Fact is every player on this team benefits from the synergy, but still those on/off stats with Tatum and Brown suggest White is really a cornerstone player.

Why not? Minutes, usage, shots increase and look what you’re seeing now. Go read my posts preseason where I said Celtics are better without Smart because White is a stud who isn’t getting a big enough role.

Fair point. Lots of ups and downs for all players. A month ago we were ready to send Pritchard to the G League.

I hope so. I love Tatum. I would love to see him win MVP. Not trying to knock him here just stating what I see to be the reality. White has been incredible. He has a BPM of 5.9 (Tatum is 3.8.) He’s one of only like 6-7 players in the NBA with a 90%+ offensive and defensive efficiency.

It’s a much larger crowd than you think.

“Energy”? Please dude. You’re using an unquantifiable variable to pump up Brown. Dunking over a big guy, screaming, hanging on the rim, getting the bench pumped, getting on ESPN top 10, is still worth 2 points.

Have you seen what happened recently with the Clippers? Russell Westbrook was replaced in the starting lineup by Terrance Mann. The team has completely turned in all categories.

Terrance Mann averages 6.7 FGA per game. No one is arguing Mann is a better player than Westbrook, but Westbrook is so ball centric and the Clippers have so many scorers and playmakers. Westbrook doing much better playing with select rotations and reduced minutes.

Not much different than my take on Brown. Brown, like Westbrook, is a guy who passes “the eye test” and can create his own shots, carry the load, but advanced stats suggests he’s not even close to the positive impact player he appears to be.

Good post…

I think we need to agree to disagree on Brown. I also disagree with your take that what he brings outside of your net ratings statistics is important. You’ve watched these games lately. Brown has impacted the team’s energy, has been central to increasing the pace that helped bring about last nights victory. It’s also increasingly clear that Brown is the leader on the team now that we got Marcus Smart out of the door. All of these things are just as important if not more than what a +/- will tel you on the stat sheet.

I am very happy with Jaylen Brown this year. He seems comfortable and content in his role and the team rides the energy he brings. Not everything important is quantifiable. I think even he would say this is his best season yet which is funny given how so many people bashed on him after a handful of meh games.

He and Tatum are simply superior players by virtue of what they can do consistently that others can’t.

They both drive, they both have great mid range games, they both play strong defense, both grown a lot as play makers and they are both capable of hot three point shooting even if its been missing this year, they can handle double teams. They make plays and impact the game in a way that others cannot because their talent is next level. They are two of the most well rounded players you’ll find in the league.

———

Back to Tatum though. He is definitely a top 5 or 6 player. When he’s playing great, you look at him and say this is the best Celtics player since Larry Bird (will definitively be when he wins a title). I don’t think anyone can or will ever say that about Derrick White.

Like I said: he is slumping and people go nuts whenever a guy has a mediocre stretch of games. Post All-Star break or sooner he will look like MVP Tatum. I’ve watched probably 80% of the games Tatum has been in. This happens every season.

It happened to Brown to start the season and some people are still in a state of refusal to acknowledge he has been playing great basketball.

Knee jerk reactions. Let’s not overreact later in the season when White’s three point shooting dips or he inexplicably plays passively which has often been a thing for him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ehh I think there’s some recency bias going on. He is excellent but I’m not taking him ahead of Porzingis and Brown if you tell me those guys are going to be healthy.

Is he better than Jrue or our past point guards? Absolutely. DWhite is playing like an All-Star rn.

But if I’m starting a team and there’s the choice of Porzingis, Brown or White? He’s the last of the three I’m taking.

He is a damn good player who especially flourishes when heavy attention is on JT/JB/KP. His best season for sure though.

———

He’s probably more expensive to extend now than he was before the season. I hope like hell we can get it done.

Porz is great but misses 30 games a year

Brown is not a complete player.

I'll take White over both of them.

 

[Kdo5]

Porz is great but misses 30 games a year

Brown is not a complete player.

I'll take White over both of them.

I said in my initial post 'barring health' which is why I like Porzingis but yeah obviously health is a major factor.

Brown is a more impactful player over the course of 82 games, is why I'd take him. I am skeptical that Derrick White has the assertiveness to take over a game on his own. He is confident when things around him are also going well but Ive never watched him come in and assert himself as "the guy" in crunch time. He chooses to play second or third fiddle.

If he is a star like you guys are saying he would have more confidence to assert himself like that type of player. I haven't seen it. He is a damn good player and having the best stretch of games in his entire career.

I think you guys are overreacting. Everyone is overreacting to a stretch of good games or a stretch of bad games. I've seen everything from KP is the 2nd best player, Jaylen is the 5th best player/Hauser is a better fit, now Derrick White is actually the 2nd best player, in fact hes not far behind Tatum. It's all knee jerk reactions.

It's like we cant just enjoy a team that is gelling and playing good across the board. Its always "this guy is better than that guy". I understand that I play a part in my defense of Jaylen Brown just because its over the top. At the end of the day they are all making each other look better by virtue of them all being good freaking players. Tatum, Brown, White, Porzingis, Holliday...none of them would be as good as they are now if you stuck them on another team.

I know for sure that Porzingis and Derrick White became better players when they came here to play with Tatum and Brown. Those dudes weren't leading the Wizards or Spurs as playoff teams when they had more central roles. In fact those teams sucked. I've also seen Tatum get almost swept in the playoffs a few years ago when he didnt have Jaylen Brown. And I'm sure Brown would not be as good without Tatum, even if their play styles clash at times. See the 2023 ECF Game 7 for that.

 

[bresna]

Back to Tatum though. He is definitely a top 5 or 6 player. When he’s playing great, you look at him and say this is the best Celtics player since Larry Bird (will definitively be when he wins a title). I don’t think anyone can or will ever say that about Derrick White.

But that's it right there... time & time again, Tatum is given the opportunity to be the guy that hits the shot that needs to be hit and more often than not, he doesn't. Bird, and to a certain extent Paul Pierce, made the shots that mattered. Tatum does not.

But no matter, I was more bummed out about Hauser sucking the life out of them in that Golden State game than even Tatum's pitiful performance. I thought Hauser turned the corner this year and was on track for the 6th Man Award. He going to have to a lot to get the bad taste of that GS stinker out of my mouth.

 

[jimnance]

I said in my initial post 'barring health' which is why I like Porzingis but yeah obviously health is a major factor.

Brown is a more impactful player over the course of 82 games, is why I'd take him. I am skeptical that Derrick White has the assertiveness to take over a game on his own. He is confident when things around him are also going well but Ive never watched him come in and assert himself as "the guy" in crunch time. He chooses to play second or third fiddle.

If he is a star like you guys are saying he would have more confidence to assert himself like that type of player. I haven't seen it. He is a damn good player and having the best stretch of games in his entire career.

I think you guys are overreacting. Everyone is overreacting to a stretch of good games or a stretch of bad games. I've seen everything from KP is the 2nd best player, Jaylen is the 5th best player/Hauser is a better fit, now Derrick White is actually the 2nd best player, in fact hes not far behind Tatum. It's all knee jerk reactions.

It's like we cant just enjoy a team that is gelling and playing good across the board. Its always "this guy is better than that guy". I understand that I play a part in my defense of Jaylen Brown just because its over the top. At the end of the day they are all making each other look better by virtue of them all being good freaking players. Tatum, Brown, White, Porzingis, Holliday...none of them would be as good as they are now if you stuck them on another team.

I know for sure that Porzingis and Derrick White became better players when they came here to play with Tatum and Brown. Those dudes weren't leading the Wizards or Spurs as playoff teams when they had more central roles. In fact those teams sucked. I've also seen Tatum get almost swept in the playoffs a few years ago when he didnt have Jaylen Brown. And I'm sure Brown would not be as good without Tatum, even if their play styles clash at times. See the 2023 ECF Game 7 for that.

Like you, I believe Brown is a quality player.
He has really stepped up his game lately.
It's also true all stats need to be taken in context.
JB brings a different skillset to tye table than White. They both are valuable players.
White is clearly the more complete player,that is inarguable.
The question is : does the sum total of Whites game impact the C's winning more than Browns impact? Good question.
One thing is for sure: White has been better than Brown over the first 27 games.
DWhite has been the 2nd best Celtic player this year. There's million ways you can quantify that.
Does that mean he'll end up being more impactful to the C's success than Brown over the course of the entire season including playoffs?
None of us can answer that yet. Maybe.
Maybe not.
Would I take White over either Brown or Porzingis?
Over Brown,yes. Porzingis? Probably not.
Porzingis is the 2nd most impactful player after Tatum, but you can't ignore the injuries.
I think you're underrating White, just as Ice is underrating Brown. Though he does it to much more of an extreme.
I'll add this : if Brown continues on the trajectory he's on right now, I think he'll be more impactful than White. But not by much. That of course, remains to be seen.
I'm glad we have both.
But right now,White should be an AllStar.
Brown should not. If he'd been playing like this all year, then that's different.
Let's all hope for both to continue to shine.
I want that banner hanging from the rafters.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think we need to agree to disagree on Brown. I also disagree with your take that what he brings outside of your net ratings statistics is important. You’ve watched these games lately. Brown has impacted the team’s energy, has been central to increasing the pace that helped bring about last nights victory. It’s also increasingly clear that Brown is the leader on the team now that we got Marcus Smart out of the door. All of these things are just as important if not more than what a +/- will tel you on the stat sheet.

I am very happy with Jaylen Brown this year. He seems comfortable and content in his role and the team rides the energy he brings. Not everything important is quantifiable. I think even he would say this is his best season yet which is funny given how so many people bashed on him after a handful of meh games.

He and Tatum are simply superior players by virtue of what they can do consistently that others can’t.

They both drive, they both have great mid range games, they both play strong defense, both grown a lot as play makers and they are both capable of hot three point shooting even if its been missing this year, they can handle double teams. They make plays and impact the game in a way that others cannot because their talent is next level. They are two of the most well rounded players you’ll find in the league.

———

Back to Tatum though. He is definitely a top 5 or 6 player. When he’s playing great, you look at him and say this is the best Celtics player since Larry Bird (will definitively be when he wins a title). I don’t think anyone can or will ever say that about Derrick White.

Like I said: he is slumping and people go nuts whenever a guy has a mediocre stretch of games. Post All-Star break or sooner he will look like MVP Tatum. I’ve watched probably 80% of the games Tatum has been in. This happens every season.

It happened to Brown to start the season and some people are still in a state of refusal to acknowledge he has been playing great basketball.

Knee jerk reactions. Let’s not overreact later in the season when White’s three point shooting dips or he inexplicably plays passively which has often been a thing for him.

So which other player gets “screwed” with quantifiable statistics? I hear a lot about how stats don’t tell the whole story. True, but the margin of error on the stats is not some massive region where we conclude they tell us nothing.

Most of us have said White has been the Celtics best player. His BPM is the best at 5.9. Most have said Porzingis changes the game in big ways. His BPM is 4.7. Most have agreed Tatum was cooking but now his overall body of work this season has taken a hit due to his long slump. His BPM is 3.8.

All of these players seem to matchup intuitively with the numbers you see, and I use BPM but it could be a number of similar efficiency stats over 36/48 minutes.

So why is Brown so low? I mean he hasn’t improved that much on these stats over the season. Why is he the only guy who us supposedly singled out by this anti-Jaylen Brown agenda ridden formula? These formulas seek to account for the very intangibles you’re alluding to. If his “contagious energy” is real, why doesn’t it result in the scoreboard moving in favor of the Celtics?

Why does the team have a better record and net rating without him for several years? Why do their wins correlate with fewer shots from JB?

You should seek to understand rather than seeking to dismiss.



Foremost, he’s their worst qualified 3 pointer but jacking up 6.8 per game. It makes no sense. A lot of them are contested. He shouldn’t shooting 3s unless they’re wide open corner 3s.

He has to be cooking on his midrange/ driving game to break even from a shooting standpoint, given his ****ty 3 point efficiency and high volume. Add in that his assists and rebounds are low for his minutes, his turnovers remain high, and his defense is nothing great.

Where’s the beef? There really is none…it’s all just sizzle. At his “best” lately he’s still not a great overall player.

 

[Kdo5]

So which other player gets “screwed” with quantifiable statistics? I hear a lot about how stats don’t tell the whole story. True, but the margin of error on the stats is not some massive region where we conclude they tell us nothing.

Most of us have said White has been the Celtics best player. His BPM is the best at 5.9. Most have said Porzingis changes the game in big ways. His BPM is 4.7. Most have agreed Tatum was cooking but now his overall body of work this season has taken a hit due to his long slump. His BPM is 3.8.

All of these players seem to matchup intuitively with the numbers you see, and I use BPM but it could be a number of similar efficiency stats over 36/48 minutes.

So why is Brown so low? I mean he hasn’t improved that much on these stats over the season. Why is he the only guy who us supposedly singled out by this anti-Jaylen Brown agenda ridden formula? These formulas seek to account for the very intangibles you’re alluding to. If his “contagious energy” is real, why doesn’t it result in the scoreboard moving in favor of the Celtics?

Why does the team have a better record and net rating without him for several years? Why do their wins correlate with fewer shots from JB?

You should seek to understand rather than seeking to dismiss.



Foremost, he’s their worst qualified 3 pointer but jacking up 6.8 per game. It makes no sense. A lot of them are contested. He shouldn’t shooting 3s unless they’re wide open corner 3s.

He has to be cooking on his midrange/ driving game to break even from a shooting standpoint, given his ****ty 3 point efficiency and high volume. Add in that his assists and rebounds are low for his minutes, his turnovers remain high, and his defense is nothing great.

Where’s the beef?

Look we just come at this from completely different perspectives. You are talking about BPM, net rating, +/-.

Some of that I am familiar with, some of it I’m not. I guess I’m a watch the game and develop an opinion off the flow of the game and who seems to be impacting the games most, along with basic stat lines to go by (Points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, turnovers etc).

I’m not saying your way of viewing the game is wrong, it’s just different from me. Going through your perspective it says Jaylen Brown is not particularly good. From just watching the game, I think he is very impactful when he is playing well. Personally I think he is more important than Porzingis and White. It doesn’t mean he is better or worse, just that him playing well is key. It’s not coincidence that our hot streak has aligned directly with Brown playing great basketball lately (and yes White too). I just think our championship aspirations continue to rest on what Tatum & Brown do and whether they perform well or not. I think most people out there continue to feel that way.

You’re a numbers guy. I’m an eye ball test guy. My eyes show me that Brown can take over stretches of games, set the tone and get us off to fast starts. Brown is dishing out more assists and less turnovers. Clearly the advanced numbers are telling you differently. We’re simply gonna have a hard time agreeing when coming from such different perspectives.

Like you, I believe Brown is a quality player.
He has really stepped up his game lately.
It's also true all stats need to be taken in context.
JB brings a different skillset to tye table than White. They both are valuable players.
White is clearly the more complete player,that is inarguable.
The question is : does the sum total of Whites game impact the C's winning more than Browns impact? Good question.
One thing is for sure: White has been better than Brown over the first 27 games.
DWhite has been the 2nd best Celtic player this year. There's million ways you can quantify that.
Does that mean he'll end up being more impactful to the C's success than Brown over the course of the entire season including playoffs?
None of us can answer that yet. Maybe.
Maybe not.
Would I take White over either Brown or Porzingis?
Over Brown,yes. Porzingis? Probably not.
Porzingis is the 2nd most impactful player after Tatum, but you can't ignore the injuries.
I think you're underrating White, just as Ice is underrating Brown. Though he does it to much more of an extreme.
I'll add this : if Brown continues on the trajectory he's on right now, I think he'll be more impactful than White. But not by much. That of course, remains to be seen.
I'm glad we have both.
But right now,White should be an AllStar.
Brown should not. If he'd been playing like this all year, then that's different.
Let's all hope for both to continue to shine.
I want that banner hanging from the rafters.

I don’t think I’m underrating Derrick White. I’m telling people to calm down. I already said he is having an All-Star season, playing the best ball of his career and is a damn good player. I love what he is doing.

I don’t think it’s too crazy to tap the brakes when people have their pants off talking like the guy is a first team all NBA player. I hope he continues playing at a high level all the way through. He is a phenomenal defender and I think that’s his big strength. Give him Defensive 1st Team or even DPOY and yeah as a Celtics fan of course I’d love it if he became an All-Star, although it won’t happen.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Look we just come at this from completely different perspectives. You are talking about BPM, net rating, +/-.

Some of that I am familiar with, some of it I’m not. I guess I’m a watch the game and develop an opinion off the flow of the game and who seems to be impacting the games most, along with basic stat lines to go by (Points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, turnovers etc).

I’m not saying your way of viewing the game is wrong, it’s just different from me. Going through your perspective it says Jaylen Brown is not particularly good. From just watching the game, I think he is very impactful when he is playing well. Personally I think he is more important than Porzingis and White. It doesn’t mean he is better or worse, just that him playing well is key. It’s not coincidence that our hot streak has aligned directly with Brown playing great basketball lately (and yes White too). I just think our championship aspirations continue to rest on what Tatum & Brown do and whether they perform well or not. I think most people out there continue to feel that way.

You’re a numbers guy. I’m an eye ball test guy. My eyes show me that Brown can take over stretches of games, set the tone and get us off to fast starts. Brown is dishing out more assists and less turnovers. Clearly the advanced numbers are telling you differently. We’re simply gonna have a hard time agreeing when coming from such different perspectives.

Brown is a selfish player. Once you pick up on it, you’ll understand why the numbers say what they do, and this will align with the eyeball test.

Whenever you see him on-ball, especially in prime time games, he looks like he hustles and dies to defend. Whenever he can get away with lazy defense, like not blocking off on helpside, he will. He’ll hustle for steals if it helps his stats (and fast break) but won’t hustle for loose balls in the paint. He doesn’t box out.

On offense, he’ll take all the easy money transition points. He will rarely dish out to a wide open three pointer for someone else. I posted a mind blowing stat earlier showing passes received / passes made splits. He’s just a flat out selfish offensive player. He still sucks at dribbling. He sets lazy screens with zero intent to help the guy with the ball, just running past the defender and trying to get the ball himself.

He’ll be sure to hang on the rim and get on Sportscenter on a monster dunk when any of the other players could do the same on an uncontested layup.

A smaller framed offensive savant who shoots 33% on 3s and 70% at free throw line. Everyone remembers all his athletic fadeaways and impressive juke moves and dunks but forgets his high volume of misses and stupid turnovers.

The numbers don’t lie. The numbers account for all the things I’ve listed.

Jaylen Brown belongs in the pre-efficiency days of the NBA where shot volume, point total, and iso ball were king. In today’s NBA his deficiencies put him at such a disadvantage he needs to be awesome in the midrange to not be a liability.

The numbers don’t lie about him. Numbers don’t always tell the story. They do with Jaylen Brown.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

How good is White? I think a good rule of thumb on these advanced stats is look at everyone on the list. Does this seem to align with what you see? If it is “out of whack” for one player it should be for others as well.

#9 rated player in NBA. The praise for White is not hype, recency bias, or hyperbole.

 

[Kdo5]

Brown is a selfish player. Once you pick up on it, you’ll understand why the numbers say what they do, and this will align with the eyeball test.

Whenever you see him on-ball, especially in prime time games, he looks like he hustles and dies to defend. Whenever he can get away with lazy defense, like not blocking off on helpside, he will. He’ll hustle for steals if it helps his stats (and fast break) but won’t hustle for loose balls in the paint. He doesn’t box out.

On offense, he’ll take all the easy money transition points. He will rarely dish out to a wide open three pointer for someone else. I posted a mind blowing stat earlier showing passes received / passes made splits. He’s just a flat out selfish offensive player. He still sucks at dribbling. He sets lazy screens with zero intent to help the guy with the ball, just running past the defender and trying to get the ball himself.

He’ll be sure to hang on the rim and get on Sportscenter on a monster dunk when any of the other players could do the same on an uncontested layup.

A smaller framed offensive savant who shoots 33% on 3s and 70% at free throw line. Everyone remembers all his athletic fadeaways and impressive juke moves and dunks but forgets his high volume of misses and stupid turnovers.

The numbers don’t lie. The numbers account for all the things I’ve listed.

Jaylen Brown belongs in the pre-efficiency days of the NBA where shot volume, point total, and iso ball were king. In today’s NBA his deficiencies put him at such a disadvantage he needs to be awesome in the midrange to not be a liability.

The numbers don’t lie about him. Numbers don’t always tell the story. They do with Jaylen Brown.

Okay, yeah you are stubborn af.

Jaylen Brown is a great player. The things you complain about are improving. He isn’t as selfish, he is making the extra pass, his assists are up and his turnovers are down.

Anyone else watching the past 7-8 games can see clearly that Brown has had his share of impactful performances and actually leading the team.

You don’t need to love or even like Jaylen Brown to admit he has been playing great lately and his contributions have weighed heavily in our wins

I don’t need a pile of statistics to reject what I’m seeing with my own eyes.

Brown is on the upswing, he seems confident and working hard to fix the flaws in his game. You won’t allow for the idea that he is getting better. So be it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Okay, yeah you are stubborn af.

Jaylen Brown is a great player.

I’m stubborn af you say while then deliberately ignoring all evidence that contradict your “eye test” results. Stats are actual facts too and are created from these actual plays within the games; they’re not manufactured in a lab. When I cite a stat showing that every player is about 1:1 in passes received / passes made except Brown who is a giant black hole, you just say “he’s making the extra pass” because your “unbiased” take trumps actual data, I guess?