BOB 'Completely Reworking' Pats Offense

[StrawHatPatriot]

He will not get fired and here’s why - Who would want to work for Bob Kraft after he fired a guy making the Pats one of the biggest brands in football and help tie the most Super Bowls won in NFL history?
That would be an extremely bad look if he fired a guy like Bill after a few bad years.

The only way this happens is if he completely loses the locker room.

Coaches don't make a franchise. It's the players.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Coaches don't make a franchise. It's the players.

Yes, but he picked the players.

 

[Rob0729]

Unless Kraft himself steps down and gives control to his son, you know that Kraft wants to make this work and see the Pats competitive with Belichick. At his age, he's not going to want to clean house, have a new front office and coaching staff and not know what to expect. There's a lot of turnover with Coaches these days.

I'm not saying his leash lasts forever, but I think Kraft would have to see a decline for a couple more years to finally have to consider pulling the plug.

So if the Pats have a losing record this year again, what makes you or Kraft think Belichick is going to turn things around again? If the Pats have a losing record and Kraft keeps Belichick, it will likely be that Belichick has convinced Kraft that it is time to move on from Mac Jones. That means the Pats are back in a rebuilding process again.

If Kraft truly thinks Mayo is the coach of the future, it would be a perfect time to move on from Belichick if they do not make the playoffs this year. Kraft can get a GM that understands how to build a team in today's NFL which I question Belichick does. And there will be plenty of money next year to rebuild.

You gotta think Belichick has this year to turn around the mess he made or he is gone. There is nothing over the last few years that has shown he knows what it takes in today's NFL to make this team a legitimate contender. Two years after that huge splash in free agency, they have very little to show for it. Agholor and Jonnu are gone. Bourne is in the doghouse. Mills was cut and then brought back to change position. Henry was good his first year and mediocre last year. Only Judon has been worth it. And last year was the Patricia/Judge fiasco.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes, but he picked the players.

And he hasn't done the best of jobs at that either.

 

[UrbanCowboy]

Huh? During the time between 2004 and 2014, the Pats went to five conference championship games, went to two Super Bowls, had an undefeated regular season in 2007, and won the AFC East every year except for 2008 when Brady tore his ACL. By my logic, there was never a point until recently where Belichick should have been fired.

Ya, my bad, you did say playoff game, not Super Bowl. I was connecting "five years" and "used up his Super Bowl cache" but that's not fair. Sorry FWIW, I'm willing to be more patient in recovering from losing the best quarterback of all time.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Matt Patricia was a short team solution at O/C because the Detroit Lions were paying his salary.

there is no evidence, this argument is used by the BB homers trying to defend and argue that this was some sort of master plan by BB
if it had worked last year with patricia, then BOB would not have been hired imo
the plan was to install MP and Judge and see if it works, it did not and they moved on
BB clearly thought he could make it work with MP and Judge because everyone in his system is replacable in his believe (it looks like this evidently)

If Bill O’Brien is handed the head coaching job when BB steps down, then he was clearly the plan all along and they just needed another season for him to be free of his Alabama obligations.

wrong conclusion, this would not neccesarily mean that this was the plan all along, it could be they just want to see while bob is the OC if he is capable of being the HC of the NEP, they don't know this yet

I have no doubt the Kraft’s have spoken to Bill about a succession plan. Obie was probably Krafty’s hand picked successor… why? Because it’s a smart hire.

Mayo could be the successor too, who knows

 

[RIpats88]

Honest question, what if Mac improves next year under O'Brien and looks good or at least what he looked like his rookie year and the pats are winning games.

What is the "anyone by Mac, corky!" Crowd going to do? Will they accept coaching was maybe part of the problem and enjoy the ride or is it going to be incessant nit picking of any mistakes he may have made in the game?

I mean I'm not sold on Mac and think he needs to prove himself But the "corky" crowd is just really over the top in their constant almost deep hatred of Mac Jones. At times its almost like they relish when the Patriots do bad.

 

[JMC00]

What is the "anyone by Mac, corky!" Crowd going to do? Will they accept coaching was maybe part of the problem and enjoy the ride or is it going to be incessant nit picking of any mistakes he may have made in the game?

They'll move the goal posts. Jones has roughly similair stats to what Josh Allen did his first 2 years.

He's also been pretty on par with Trevor Lawrence thru 2 years and that was getting hamstrung by Patricia and Judge last year, while Lawrence got a decent offensive minded HC.

Trevor Lawrence thru 2 years
34 Games
62.9%
228.1 YPG
6.5 AVG
37 TD
25 INT
83.4 QB Rating

Mac Jones thru 2 years
30 games
66.5%
226.6 YPG
7.1 AVG
36 TD
24 INT
89 QB Rating

 

[RodThePat]

They'll move the goal posts. Jones has roughly similair stats to what Josh Allen did his first 2 years.

He's also been pretty on par with Trevor Lawrence thru 2 years and that was getting hamstrung by Patricia and Judge last year, while Lawrence got a decent offensive minded HC.

Trevor Lawrence thru 2 years
34 Games
62.9%
228.1 YPG
6.5 AVG
37 TD
25 INT
83.4 QB Rating

Mac Jones thru 2 years
30 games
66.5%
226.6 YPG
36 TD
24 INT
89 QB Rating

This is so disingenuos. Why should their rookie seasons weigh the same as what they did in 2022? How does Lawrence's 2021 with Urban Meyer represent him as a player as much as what he accomplished last year? The fact that he's in a significant upward trajectory is a huge part of what makes him a much better player than Mac Jones at this point.

 

[Sicilian]

This is so disingenuos. Why should their rookie seasons weigh the same as what they did in 2022? How does Lawrence's 2021 with Urban Meyer represent him as a player as much as what he accomplished last year? The fact that he's in a significant upward trajectory is a huge part of what makes him a much better player than Mac Jones at this point.

I'll agree that you weigh Laurence more because you expect young players to get better, but both had a well-respected offensive mind in the years they played well, and the exact opposite situation in the year they played poorly. So I don't think it's disingenuous to make the comparison, especially when trying to make the point that coaching plays a huge role in the success of an offense.

There are plenty of other recent examples of this as well: Daniel Jones improving once Daboll got to the Giants and Tampa's offense suddenly looking lost when Arians left and and Leftwich was given the full reigns.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

or is it going to be incessant nit picking of any mistakes he may have made in the game?

You answered your own question

 

[RodThePat]

I'll agree that you weigh Laurence more because you expect young players to get better, but both had a well-respected offensive mind in the years they played well, and the exact opposite situation in the year they played poorly. So I don't think it's disingenuous to make the comparison, especially when trying to make the point that coaching plays a huge role in the success of an offense.

There are plenty of other recent examples of this as well: Daniel Jones improving once Daboll got to the Giants and Tampa's offense suddenly looking lost when Arians left and and Leftwich was given the full reigns.

Yeah, I'd throw out the Tampa example because to me that's absolutely not just a case of "see, Arians left and they crumbled", there were a ton of factors at play there, not the least of which having a 45 year old QB with a foot out of the league going through a messy divorce. A 40 year old, properly motivated Tom Brady drives that offense to success 10 times out of 10. That to me is a clear example of QB play impacting offensive production, he just wasn't nearly as good as he was in 2020 and 2021 (years when the offense also was unimaginative, also didn't use motion, also didn't use play action and also didn't go for it enough on 4th down).

I also think Daniel Jones' improvement is vastly overstated, he went from a meh QB to an okay QB, it's not like he absolutely flourished, he's just fine and he wasn't terrible before. Of course coaching plays a role in offense performance and QB development, but Trevor Lawrence is an ascending player with elite physical tools, while Mac Jones stagnated and doesn't have the athletic attributes that you can look at and say "boy, there's a ton more performance to be unlocked there with the right coaching" like you did for Lawrence in 2021.

Trajectory matters, and I'm much more confident that Lawrence's 2022 represents a baseline of what we can expect from him going forward than I am to project anything out of Mac Jones, especially considering it's not like Bill O'Brien really has this extensive history of putting together elite offenses in the NFL without Brady and he had Deshaun Watson.

 

[JMC00]

This is so disingenuos. Why should their rookie seasons weigh the same as what they did in 2022? How does Lawrence's 2021 with Urban Meyer represent him as a player as much as what he accomplished last year? The fact that he's in a significant upward trajectory is a huge part of what makes him a much better player than Mac Jones at this point.

Spoken like a true Jones hater.

Mac his first year had McDaniels. Lawrence had the dumpster fire that was Urban Meyer

Mac his 2nd year had the dumpster fire that was Patricia & Judge. Lawrence had an offensive minded former SB winning HC in Doug Pederson and a solid QB coach in Mike McCoy

It's not disingenuous at all. It's actually a very legitimate comparison. Absolutely rich to call me comparing their 2 years disingenuous. You want to mention Urban Meyer but then completely ignore Jones had Patricia as OC (who also was the OL coach) and Joe Judge as his QB coach. Sorry can't do that. If Lawrence gets the "Urban Meyer" excuse for his rookie year. Jones gets the "Patricia & Judge" excuse for his 2nd year. Mac with McDaniels as the OC was a better QB in 2021 than Lawrence. Lawrence with a much superior offensive coaching staff was better than Jones who had a garbage offensive coaching staff in 2022.

 

[RodThePat]

Spoken like a true Jones hater.

Mac his first year had McDaniels. Lawrence had the dumpster fire that was Urban Meyer

Mac his 2nd year had the dumpster fire that was Patricia & Judge. Lawrence had an offensive minded former SB winning HC in Doug Pederson and a solid QB coach in Mike McCoy

It's not disingenuous at all. It's actually a very legitimate comparison. Absolutely rich to call me comparing their 2 years disingenuous. You want to mention Urban Meyer but then completely ignore Jones had Patricia as OC (who also was the OL coach) and Joe Judge as his QB coach. Sorry can't do that. If Lawrence gets the "Urban Meyer" excuse for his rookie year. Jones gets the "Patricia & Judge" excuse for his 2nd year. Mac with McDaniels as the OC was a better QB in 2021 than Lawrence. Lawrence with a much superior offensive coaching staff was better than Jones who had a garbage offensive coaching staff in 2022.

Trevor Lawrence was a rookie in the worst team in football with the worst coaching staff the league has seen in a while, Mac Jones was a second year player with a team that made the playoffs the year prior and Bill Belichick as HC. I'm sorry, if you believe Judge and Patricia running the offense are enough to say Mac in 2022 was in a comparable situation to Lawrence in 2021, I just completely disagree. It's like all of a sudden Bill Belichick doesn't matter a lick. So funny to see this fanbase throw away 20 years of dogma to twist themselves into this belief that no QB ever had to deal with as bad a situation as Mac Jones did in 2022.

If you put Mac in the 2021 Jaguars, having to throw to climb back into deficits from the jump, with that coaching staff and that surrounding cast, I think he might have spontaneously combusted.

 

[Rob0729]

Ya, my bad, you did say playoff game, not Super Bowl. I was connecting "five years" and "used up his Super Bowl cache" but that's not fair. Sorry FWIW, I'm willing to be more patient in recovering from losing the best quarterback of all time.

It isn't about the amount of time. It is what Belichick has done with that time.

He literally threw away a year of development of Jones and the offense because he thought a defensive coach could run an offense and special teams coach could develop a young QB.

The Patriots spent more money they ever did in history in free agency two years ago. Two of the biggest acquistions are already gone because of lack of production. Another one has been in the doghouse for a year and not getting playing time.

It was clear that the offense needs weapons and so far all he did was minor upgrades and still no legitimate #1 WR (unless Thornton makes a massive year two jump) in a league that shows that weapons are the key to making a non-elite QB look elite or close to it (see Tua and Hurts and Cousins).

If the Pats seemed to have a plan to grow this team into a contender, I would say Belichick has more time. But he really seems to be just hanging around to get the wins title. He seems to be done with his QB after sabotaging him and the offense last year. Odds are good they are not drafting one of the top QBs this year. So the plan seems to be use this year as another bridge year because Kraft won't let him get rid of Jones and get a new QB next year and start over after he proves Kraft wrong.

 

[Rob0729]

This is so disingenuos. Why should their rookie seasons weigh the same as what they did in 2022? How does Lawrence's 2021 with Urban Meyer represent him as a player as much as what he accomplished last year? The fact that he's in a significant upward trajectory is a huge part of what makes him a much better player than Mac Jones at this point.

If Jones had a real offense and OC last year, I would agree with you. But he didn't. You really cannot judge anyone accurately on the offense after last year.

You mention Lawrence, but Lawrence gets a free pass for his rookie year because it was such a crap show for that year because of Meyers. The difference between him and

People are still giving Justin Fields a free pass after two years of crappy coaching.

 

[RodThePat]

If Jones had a real offense and OC last year, I would agree with you. But he didn't. You really cannot judge anyone accurately on the offense after last year.

You mention Lawrence, but Lawrence gets a free pass for his rookie year because it was such a crap show for that year because of Meyers. The difference between him and

People are still giving Justin Fields a free pass after two years of crappy coaching.

I think it's patently absurd to compare Mac Jones' 2022 in terms of coaching, organizational stability, overall team talent level and offensive supporting cast to Lawrence's 2021. Or even Justin Fields' entire career.

 

[Kasmir]

Of course he would...and has.

There's a big difference between ignoring the media consensus and deliberately hurting the team to spite the media. BB certainly despises the media but no way he deliberately hurts the team to spite the media.

 

[Kasmir]

Coaches don't make a franchise. It's the players.

Then Alabama could surely save a ton of money by replacing Saban with a high school coach. Right?

 

[PP2]

Yeah, I'd throw out the Tampa example because to me that's absolutely not just a case of "see, Arians left and they crumbled", there were a ton of factors at play there, not the least of which having a 45 year old QB with a foot out of the league going through a messy divorce.

It was absolutely a case of "Arians left and they crumbled."

What separated Arians from Toilet Bowl was Arian's ability to get in people's face and tell them they ****ed up, including Brady. He wasn't afraid to call Brady out in the press. This also extended to his coaching staff.

When Bowl took over the team, accountability went out the window.