PFT: Bill "has shopped" Mac

[Love The Drake]

Just saw a mock where Levis drops to 16 I’m sorry if he is there at 14 you have to take him and trade Mac.

Too much natural ability sit him and let Zappe cook.

Arch you wouldn’t take Levis and trade Mac for a second?

 

[Rob0729]

Zappe ran that same offense albeit with more play action concepts thrown in very effectively.
It’s a tough one.
The last few weeks Jones was very accurate.
However pocket movement, feeling the rush and clutchness was all way under par.

It’s hard to put all that on Patricia and Judge.
Now to be fair the O line played the most undisciplined under prepared I have seen in the BB era.

So I can buy Mac didn’t trust his protections, his audibles or his coaches vision.
However at some point natural ability and awareness should show itself.
Mac was backing up when there was no pressure and hurried his reads when he had time.
He hesitated to run for simple gains of fear of reinjuring himself.
His lack of arm talent showed up big when teams just clogged the intermediate passing routes daring Mac to beat them deep,
They didn’t respect our big play ability.
Now on one hand I can blame the WRs but when your own head coach said we didn’t go for the long pass cause we didn’t think the ball would get there.

I don’t think defenses are thinking any differently.
Or that the time it takes the ball to reach its destination the safety or d back can make up the yardage easily.

Zappe had one very good game. Otherwise, he mostly handed off the ball. When Zappe was in there, the simplified the offense to be a run first offense where he wasn't asked to do much. He wasn't throwing 50-50 balls one after the other like Jones was doing at the start of the season. It wasn't the same offense. Hell, there are even a report that Patricia and Judge went to Jones and offered to call more plays for him like they did with Zappe and he refused (the reports seemed to come from Judge since Jones comes off as a malcontent while the coaches come out ok). Even Patricia admitted that he called different plays for Zappe, but he chocked it up to the opponent and not the QBs.

From Albert Breer:

“One of the things that happened in the middle of the year that wasn’t in the story that I thought was really interesting was when [Bailey] Zappe went in there and they started to do some things that were simpler and they created layup plays. And this is in some defense of of Matt [Patricia] and Joe [Judge] and I know there was a point where they were trying to tell Mac like, ‘listen we’re going to give you some layups where it’s going to be seven easy yards and we’re going to get in 2nd-and-3 and like just do what the play is telling you to.’ And my understanding is he would rail back against that a little bit, you know, and but the thing has just gotten so poisoned at that point."

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BTW, why weren't they giving Jones lay up plays from day one? Even if you have Brady in your prime, you want the lay up plays on first down to get you second and short. Just spoke to the incompetence of Patricia and Judge.

Matt Patricia explained difference in offensive play-calling between Mac Jones and Bailey Zappe

The Patriots have noticeably thrown more deep balls with Jones under center while Zappe's had more play-action passes. Read more on Boston.com.

www.boston.com

And Jones did trust his audibles since most of the season since they didn't allow him to call audibles until later in the season.

 

[Peachhead]

Do you believe Trevor Lawrence, a guy that has been ranked the best QB in the country for his age class since he basically started high school, had reason to be frustrated over being coached by one of the most disastrous experiments in recent NFL history, watching his HC stuffing his hands down the pants of women at bars after not returning on the same plane as the team and kicking players on the practice field? Because I do. Did you hear a peep over him being anything but a model pro in Jacksonville? I didn't.

The fact of the matter is most rookie QBs selected at the top of the first round are put into terrible situations, a lot of them in much worse situations than Mac Jones had to contend with last year. Mac at least had Bill, what does Justin Fields have? Or even Zach Wilson, is anyone out there talking about how Wilson's immaturity is understandable? That's the reality for those guys in the league: you're drafted into bad teams and shoulder a ton of expectations. Mac is in a historically good situation for guys picked at his spot, not in a historically bad one as this board loves to suggest.

All of a sudden Bill doesn't really matter the coordinators run the show. If the OC is terrible, then having Bill does nothing for players on that side of the ball. Funny how that's the narrative now: Bill is a defense only coach that's a cerimonial figure on offense. We're just burying 20 years of "Bill is the guy behind everything, he's the only HC that can coach anything" to protect... Mac Jones? What has Mac Jones done for this team?

I totally agree. Add to that Joe Judge was Daniel Jones' HC in 2021 and Matt Patricia was Matthew Stafford's HC from 2018 to 2020. I don't remember either of those QBs having temper tantrums during games in those years.

 

[crawhammer]

It's still amazing to me that people can still blame Mac 100% for last year now knowing what we know about the Patricia/judge debacle.

The amount of dysfunction would be hard for a veteran QB let alone a 2nd year QB. The question is did they ruin him for good.

It's clear by Krafts comments and the fact that they brought in O'Brien to have autonomy to overhaul the offense that Patricia/judge were the main problems.

Now it's make or break time.

No one is blaming Mac "100%" for the offensive struggles in 2022. However, he didn't play well and the offense looked better with Zappe. But the majority of the blame falls on Bill Belichick. He made the decision to employ Patricia and Judge and he made the decision to promote them to positions of high importance. It predictably blew up in his face. Belichick and the IBWTers still believe it's his "system" that fosters the winning. His system has never worked, not once, without Brady. They're always some bs excuse too. The owner sabotaged him in Cleveland. Had to clean up Carroll's mess, which suddenly worked like like magic come week 3 of 2001. Cassel hadn't started since high school. Resetting the cap in 2020. Rebuilding around a rookie QB in 2021. Scapegoating (his own decision) Patricia as the OC. I'm sure the wheels are already turning for excuses in 2023 so we can kick the 'make or break time' can to 2024.

 

[Rob0729]

I totally agree. Add to that Joe Judge was Daniel Jones' HC in 2021 and Matt Patricia was Matthew Stafford's HC from 2018 to 2020. I don't remember either of those QBs having temper tantrums during games in those years.

Judge wasn't Daniel Jones' OC and Patricia wasn't Stafford's OC. They actually had OCs with real offensive experience and installed real NFL offenses. I am guessing Daniel Jones and Stafford didn't know more about running an offense than their OCs. Mac Jones certainly knew more about running an offense than Judge and Patricia.

 

[Rob0729]

No one is blaming Mac "100%" for the offensive struggles in 2022. However, he didn't play well and the offense looked better with Zappe. But the majority of the blame falls on Bill Belichick. He made the decision to employ Patricia and Judge and he made the decision to promote them to positions of high importance. It predictably blew up in his face. Belichick and the IBWTers still believe it's his "system" that fosters the winning. His system has never worked, not once, without Brady. They're always some bs excuse too. The owner sabotaged him in Cleveland. Had to clean up Carroll's mess, which suddenly worked like like magic come week 3 of 2001. Cassel hadn't started since high school. Resetting the cap in 2020. Rebuilding around a rookie QB in 2021. Scapegoating (his own decision) Patricia as the OC. I'm sure the wheels are already turning for excuses in 2023 so we can kick the 'make or break time' can to 2024.

Matt Cassel got 11 wins in this system. It did work once. And they did win their division once in Cleveland. But other than Bledsoe, Belichick has had mostly either Brady or below average (sometimes well below average) QBs. Jury is still out on Jones and Bledsoe's problem was that he wasn't built for the offense.

I question Belichick now, but there were probably a half dozen or even a dozen QBs in the league that he could have won the Super Bowl with in 2001 other than Brady. Brady was good, not great that year and there were quite a few better QBs than him that year.

 

[Ross12]

As to whether Jones prioritized winning, the reported reason Belichick is so upset with him, he was calling Alamaba looking for advice to fix the offense. Not to salvage his career. To fix the offense.

The thing that makes me look at this sideways is that if Mac was “calling Alabama to fix the offense” he would’ve been calling Bill O’Brien. And now Bill O’Brien is his new OC. So isn’t that kind of just rewarding that? It’s hard to say “Bill is so pissed that Mac called BOB” and then hire BOB to do the job that Mac was calling him to do.

Unless Mac was directly calling Saban, idk.

 

[Real fan 02]

As to whether Jones prioritized winning, the reported reason Belichick is so upset with him, he was calling Alamaba looking for advice to fix the offense. Not to salvage his career. To fix the offense.

I think that's what gets lost in translation.. that's exactly right. The kid came from a winning environment he knows what it takes to be great and win.. the offense was dumbed down to aid the coaches not so much aid the players as it was falsely portrayed. Fact of the Matter is had anything like this transpired during the championship years Brady wouldn't have stood for it. Brady controlled the offense!

 

[crawhammer]

Which is my point - everyone you named could win a Superbowl, and then so could Purdy, Mac, Zappe, etc. We just don't know yet.

If that's your point then I don't really agree with that. Purdy, if healthy, could win a Super Bowl because he looks at least competent and that 49ers team is stacked. Mac is not winning a Super Bowl (at least not anytime soon but probably not ever). Zappe's arm is probably too weak to consistently compete at the highest level, which is too bad because I like a lot of other aspects of his game.

I don't think Rodgers will win another Super Bowl. I like Cousins but he seems to be missing something (but I'll give him a chance with a much better defense). I don't think Tua will win a Super Bowl because I don't ever see him making it through 20 games in a single season. I have my doubts about Dak winning a SB. The odds of Geno or Goff winning a Super Bowl are low. I like Carr and the Saints, particularly in that division, but I don't trust their HC.

 

[Real fan 02]

The thing that makes me look at this sideways is that if Mac was “calling Alabama to fix the offense” he would’ve been calling Bill O’Brien. And now Bill O’Brien is his new OC. So isn’t that kind of just rewarding that? It’s hard to say “Bill is so pissed that Mac called BOB” and then hire BOB to do the job that Mac was calling him to do.

Unless Mac was directly calling Saban, idk.

The fact Mac had to go outside the organization in general should have been a reality check that the decision BB made was ridiculous.. BB likely felt that he couldn't change anything as the season wore on.

From reports judge was the primary problem, Patricia was just in over his head.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

@One-If-By-Sea

I typically like your post and agree with mostly... but I did mention yes he could have handled some things better.. but he's still growing as qb.. last season would have frustrated any QB.. just saying...

I agree. Last season would have been very frustrating for anyone, but no excuses for cheap shots on other players. No excuses does not mean Mac is a bad person. I like Mac, I like his overall attitude, and community outreach. I have very high hopes for Mac this year working with BOB. I think Mac is cerebral which will elevate his game, and I doubt we will see the pouting this year. Mac is at Gillette every day because he is a hard worker which will pay off. A long term positive attitude usually overcomes a short term frustration. But the proof is in the pudding - we will see this Fall.

 

[Rob0729]

The thing that makes me look at this sideways is that if Mac was “calling Alabama to fix the offense” he would’ve been calling Bill O’Brien. And now Bill O’Brien is his new OC. So isn’t that kind of just rewarding that? It’s hard to say “Bill is so pissed that Mac called BOB” and then hire BOB to do the job that Mac was calling him to do.

Unless Mac was directly calling Saban, idk.

I am guessing that Belichick didn't have as much say in the OC hiring as people like to think. And I also don't think the private meeting between Kraft and Belichick went as swimmingly as it has been reported with Belichick going in taking the blame and offering to get a real OC. I am betting that Kraft had a lot more to do with O'Brien getting hired than people think.

 

[Real fan 02]

An experiment ?
With a $200+ million roster ?

NONSENSE

Belichick has had one of the smallest coaching staffs in the NFL in recent years.
His tiny staff has been chocked full of entrenched bobos and offspring leaving very few opportunities for promotion within.
His stubborness/reluctance to give out job titles and elevate pay compelled qualified coaches/execs to flee Foxborough.
BB was not prepared to replace OC, OLC, front office (Patricia was charged with all 3), etc.
BB took his eye off the ball in terms of staffing with no bullpen in place resulting in the malpractice we saw last year.
It wasn't an experiment.
Belichick had no contingencies in place within the organization and instead of scouring the Earth for qualified replacements he instinctively opted for discount bobos.

I wonder the financial arrangement BB has with Kraft.
Could it be possible Kraft gives BB a "staff" budget, and in BB's contract it states BB can keep for himself the unspent surplus.
It sure feels that way considering his disdain for higher paying coordinator titles and his lust for securing failed FOB still getting paid by other teams.

27 million a season would be the financial arrangement that BB&RK have.. that's BBs salary. Your right he does have a staff budget as BB is in charge of everything down to the equipment manager. To clarify my earlier statement on "experiment " meaning in BBs own mind.. he conjured up the idea based on Mac's progress from his rookie season, the fact that his loyalist 2 failed HCs could coach offense on the idea that they had been HCs prior.

That is my theory.. we saw 1 good drive the 1st series in Miami and how that drive ended with an INT in the end zone was just a preview of what we had to endure during the season. As bad as STs was we had plenty of times the D and STs gave the offense excellent field position and the play calling was just so bad that we settled for FGs in the red area. Ranked 32nd in red zone efficiency after being a top 5 red zone offense the season prior.

 

[crawhammer]

Matt Cassel got 11 wins in this system. It did work once. And they did win their division once in Cleveland. But other than Bledsoe, Belichick has had mostly either Brady or below average (sometimes well below average) QBs. Jury is still out on Jones and Bledsoe's problem was that he wasn't built for the offense.

2008 is very overrated. Easy schedule. Lost to the better teams. Offensive production was markedly down from 2007.
BB's time in Cleveland was a major disappointment.
Bledsoe's main problem was he had zero pocket mobility, which would be a problem for him in every offense. He also didn't have a clutch bone in his body.

I question Belichick now, but there were probably a half dozen or even a dozen QBs in the league that he could have won the Super Bowl with in 2001 other than Brady. Brady was good, not great that year and there were quite a few better QBs than him that year.

The team went from 5-13 to 14-3 with a Super Bowl Championship. Brady has move than gone on to prove that the dramatic turnaround was not a fluke. If BB had a 'winning system' then you'd have at least something absent Brady to point to. You don't. Unless you want to stick your flag in a second place finish with no postseason.

 

[Real fan 02]

I agree. Last season would have been very frustrating for anyone, but no excuses for cheap shots on other players. No excuses does not mean Mac is a bad person. I like Mac, I like his overall attitude, and community outreach. I have very high hopes for Mac this year working with BOB. I think Mac is cerebral which will elevate his game. And I doubt we will see the pouting this year. Mac is at Gillette every day because he is a hard worker which will pay off. A long term positive attitude overcomes a short term frustration. But the proof is in the pudding - we will see this Fall.

Spot on!! Charlie Weiss said that Mac was drafted becuase he fit the mold of #12.. he said Mac is a little more athletic than Brady, however but has his same intangibles as you mentioned his mental, accuracy, his passion, his hunger. Last season period is enough fuel to fire Mac up.. no excuses this season BB can dedicate his time primarily to defense and STs. I'm definitely optimistic on this season also.. Mac is the present and future of this team. If he can play great from day 1 and lead this team to wins then all the doubt will cease.

 

[Ross12]

I am guessing that Belichick didn't have as much say in the OC hiring as people like to think. And I also don't think the private meeting between Kraft and Belichick went as swimmingly as it has been reported with Belichick going in taking the blame and offering to get a real OC. I am betting that Kraft had a lot more to do with O'Brien getting hired than people think.

It's possible, yeah. It has been previously reported that Kraft loves BOB. However, I also kind of have a hard time imagining who else Bill would've hired. In my opinion they probably both wanted BOB, but possibly for different reasons. It's just kinda weird. It's hard to draw any major conclusions since it's pretty much all media rumor mongering.

 

[Rob0729]

2008 is very overrated. Easy schedule. Lost to the better teams. Offensive production was markedly down from 2007.
BB's time in Cleveland was a major disappointment.
Bledsoe's main problem was he had zero pocket mobility, which would be a problem for him in every offense. He also didn't have a clutch bone in his body.


The team went from 5-13 to 14-3 with a Super Bowl Championship. Brady has move than gone on to prove that the dramatic turnaround was not a fluke. If BB had a 'winning system' then you'd have at least something absent Brady to point to. You don't. Unless you want to stick your flag in a second place finish with no postseason.

The Pats won on defense early in the dynasty. Yes, Brady became a legend with that game scoring drive at the end of the Super Bowl, but what really won that game? Brady's last drive on a day the Patriots' offense only scored one TD or the Patriots shutting down the Greatest Show on Turf and taking out Marshall Faulk for the entire game? The Pats had the best defense in the league in terms of points from the second half of the season all the way through the Super Bowl in 2001. Let's give Belichick a little credit.


And in 2003, the offense wasn't that great and the defense won a lot of games that year.

 

[PatsFan2]

Zappe ran that same offense albeit with more play action concepts thrown in very effectively.
It’s a tough one.
The last few weeks Jones was very accurate.
However pocket movement, feeling the rush and clutchness was all way under par.

It’s hard to put all that on Patricia and Judge.
Now to be fair the O line played the most undisciplined under prepared I have seen in the BB era.

So I can buy Mac didn’t trust his protections, his audibles or his coaches vision.
However at some point natural ability and awareness should show itself.
Mac was backing up when there was no pressure and hurried his reads when he had time.
He hesitated to run for simple gains of fear of reinjuring himself.
His lack of arm talent showed up big when teams just clogged the intermediate passing routes daring Mac to beat them deep,
They didn’t respect our big play ability.
Now on one hand I can blame the WRs but when your own head coach said we didn’t go for the long pass cause we didn’t think the ball would get there.

I don’t think defenses are thinking any differently.
Or that the time it takes the ball to reach its destination the safety or d back can make up the yardage easily.

Preach brother preach: there were also times when T Thornton beat his man on the initial release and Mac didn't even look his way his awareness was just bad.

 

[crawhammer]

The Pats won on defense early in the dynasty. Yes, Brady became a legend with that game scoring drive at the end of the Super Bowl, but what really won that game? Brady's last drive on a day the Patriots' offense only scored one TD or the Patriots shutting down the Greatest Show on Turf and taking out Marshall Faulk for the entire game? The Pats had the best defense in the league in terms of points from the second half of the season all the way through the Super Bowl in 2001. Let's give Belichick a little credit.

I do. SB 36 is a highlight of BB's head coaching career. SB 53 too. Holding Peyton Manning to 3 points in the 2004 divisional... great stuff. However, Brady was the main ingredient that led to all of the winning and ultimately propelled BB to legendary status.

And in 2003, the offense wasn't that great and the defense won a lot of games that year.

Antowain Smith was in full decline by 2003. The running game was 30th in Y/A. The passing game was top 10. Brady had 5 game-winning drives that season and he finished 3rd in NFL MVP voting. But yes, the Patriots defenses peaked in 2003-2004. I still think 2004 was their overall best team.

 

[Real fan 02]

I do. SB 36 is a highlight of BB's head coaching career. SB 53 too. Holding Peyton Manning to 3 points in the 2004 divisional... great stuff. However, Brady was the main ingredient that led to all of the winning and ultimately propelled BB to legendary status.


Antowain Smith was in full decline by 2003. The running game was 30th in Y/A. The passing game was top 10. Brady had 5 game-winning drives that season and he finished 3rd in NFL MVP voting. But yes, the Patriots defenses peaked in 2003-2004. I still think 2004 was their overall best team.

Your right, that's what prompted us to go after clock Killin dillion who was phenomenal with for us! He wore down defenses.. 04 was spectacular we were loaded on defense