BB THE GOAT

[crawhammer]

I've seen the documentary but I'll watch it again tonight. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

I re-watched the documentary. I'll put slightly more on the timing of the Modell announcement but they were 1-5 in games started by Eric Zeier (or in which he had significant playing time). In fact he started the first 3 losses, and threw 4 picks in another, of their 1-7 finish. Zeier was not a legitimate starting NFL quarterback so it's highly probable he had more to do with those losses than Modell.

Modell's announcement definitely impacted the team, but they were 1-3 (with an OT win) just prior to the announcement, and 4-4 overall, which isn't a sterling record. 2-10 is a brutal way to finish out a season so it's hard ignore the team's poor play and just put it all on the announcement.

One could put it on the QB play generally too. They got off to a hot start with Testaverde having 8 TDs and 1 INT in the 3-1 start. After that (October onward), Testaverde and Zeier combined for 13 TDs and 18 INTs in the 2-10 finish. Seems like QB play was the major culprit here.

Furthermore, on the documentary, it's heavily slanted toward glorifying Belichick and his staff. It spends more time on the staff, their responsibilities (some menial), and their eventual career paths than anything (which is fine I suppose but it burnt a lot of doc time).

Regarding the 95 team itself, the gist of the documentary narrative was the team had been favored preseason by some to make the Super Bowl and Modell ****ed the whole thing up on November 6, halfway through a .500 season to that point. Not sure I agree.

I think all of these are true: 1) the team was performing below expectations, 2) Modell took a major dump on the season, and 3) the team went completely in the toilet (probably in large part to really bad quarterback play).

 

[crawhammer]

You are preoccupied with the wrong stats.

Having 649 TDs will not make Mahomes better than Tom.

Winning 8 Super Bowls and more career reg season and playoffs games will.

I get that. But I put 0% chance on Mahomes reaching 8. I'll say 4 max, so two more (before Reid retires).

Rings and wins are included in the stats I'm talking about. Passing stats will be in the equation too, especially considering Mahomes is very unlikely to win 7 or 8 Super Bowls, so his groupies will have to point to other things like total TDs and yards, etc.

I know how you feel about it, and I agree rings and wins should be the majority decider, but I'm considering how others will approach it. And some of those others aren't just anonymous schmucks on message boards, they're prominent figures in the national media, suggesting Mahomes is already nipping at Brady's heels. It's ridiculous.

Do you see what I'm saying?

 

[RobertWeathers]

I get that. But I put 0% chance on Mahomes reaching 8. I'll say 4 max, so two more (before Reid retires).

Rings and wins are included in the stats I'm talking about. Passing stats will be in the equation too, especially considering Mahomes is very unlikely to win 7 or 8 Super Bowls, so his groupies will have to point to other things like total TDs and yards, etc.

I know how you feel about it, and I agree rings and wins should be the majority decider, but I'm considering how others will approach it. And some of those others aren't just anonymous schmucks on message boards, they're prominent figures in the national media, suggesting Mahomes is already nipping at Brady's heels. It's ridiculous.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Yes. TBH you are way too caught up in and concerned what others say. Groupies, schmucks, prominent figures, etc. - what matters is what YOU think.

There is nothing wrong with respecting and opinion...but agreeing with it is a different matter.

If this fan base cared what the national media thought we'd all think Spygate was the end of the world and Brady cheated. Total ********.

 

[RobertWeathers]

This will get moved to the Mahomes thread, but in no sport is having the most number of super bowls a prerequisite for being the GOAT. In basketball, Bill Russell is not the GOAT, in baseball Dimaggio is not the GOAT, and in hockey Mark Messier is not the GOAT. If Mahomes comes up with 5 or 6 SBs and destroys Brady in stats and MVPs it's over...Mahomes wins.

Yes but fair or unfair NFL quarterbacks are held to a different standard.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

This will get moved to the Mahomes thread, but in no sport is having the most number of super bowls a prerequisite for being the GOAT. In basketball, Bill Russell is not the GOAT, in baseball Dimaggio is not the GOAT, and in hockey Mark Messier is not the GOAT. If Mahomes comes up with 5 or 6 SBs and destroys Brady in stats and MVPs it's over...Mahomes wins.

rooting for a guy who has never played for the pats and simultaneously always bashing the qb who has brought joy and played a major role in the biggest run of a franchise all time which brought even more joy to the fans shows who you are

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I thinks Arians challenged Brady, openly criticized him, which Brady may not have appreciate, but too ****ing bad, and in reality it probably lit a fire under his ass. Arians isn't a great coach from the sideline but he's aggressive and a great motivator. I think he, Leftwich, and Brady were able to sort out a winning formula down the stretch in 2020. Brady was brilliant in 2020 and 2021 (when he should have won his 4th NFL MVP at age 44).

Bowles botched the end of the 2021 NFCCG by inexplicably leaving Kupp uncovered. Then he spectacularly failed as the head coach in 2022. Generally Belichick's knowledge of the game and awareness from the sideline are impeccable. Now image the total opposite of that... you're thinking of toilet bowl

Nice post, you bring up a couple of valid points. Ultimately Brady hated Arians because 1. his aggressive offense did not play to his strengths and created too many turnovers, 2. he blamed TB for the turnovers in the press and 3. Arians would take the red pen to the game plan created by TB and Leftwich. That is why Brady had him fired. Arians was an effective coach, Bowles is not which gets to the point that even the GOAT QB cannot win without a good coach and a solid team around him. BB and TB12 are both GOATs that benefited from each other.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don't know about that. Bradshaw was never considered to be in the conversation of GOAT despite winning the same number of rings as Montana.

Then I would disagree with those people as well. He is absolutely in the top 5-10.

Mahomes may end up setting a new standard that doesn't involve the most number of rings. 6-1 in super bowls plus a ton of MVPs and stats would do it for a lot of people.

What people? Why do their opinions matter?

For all we know Mahomes may never win another Super Bowl. Brady had a 10 year drought before he won #4.

 

[Wax Frog]

No idea WTF this means..

The wording in your avatar ->

Just Dropped In (To See What Condition My Condition Was In) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ring 6]

But sure, Brady wasn't perfect in those games, and he probably made costly mistakes, however, nothing Brady ever did wrong rises to the level of Belichick benching Butler in the Super Bowl. I sorry too, but 2015 was a showcase in bad coaching.

This is where it just gets silly.
You argue that the player is more important than the coach and then blame the coaching decision for every loss.
And what makes it stupid is not I have to counter that making it seem like I’m throwing out blame. The reality is that there are thousands of reasons teams won and lose. Boiling it down to “that decision cost them a SB” is ridiculous and lacks any real thought.
So to show you the other side of the coin of your horrible argument:

In 2005 the patriots lost because Brady could only put up 13 points and threw 2 picks including a 100 yard almost pick 6. If the patriots had a qb who could put up more than 13 points against a good (6 net) they could have won the SB.
IN 2007 Brady, with generational weapons, could only put up 14 points against a team that was 17th in points allowed. If the Qb could have put up 18 we win the SB.
IN 2009 we scored only 14 points in a playoff loss and Brady threw 3 picks. How is a coaching decision about a guy the coach thought wasn’t able to play at a competitive level worse than 154 passing yards on 42 attempts and 3 picks?
In 2010 Brady threw an early pick and put up 14 points until a garbage time td down 14 with 24 seconds left
In 2011 Brady decided to ground the ball with no one near him and take a safety then put up on 17 points all game and again threw a pick.
In 2012 after belichick coached his way to HFA (apparently a guaranteed sb) Brady threw 2 picks and put up 13 points at home. Does playing like crap not count as much as a decision you don’t like?
In 2013 Brady put up 16 points AT Denver partly because he gave away HFA in Miami by throwing a pick from parallel to the ground.
In 2015 in Denver he was 27-56 with 2 picks and 18 points. Maybe belichick didn’t fear Denver because he wasn’t expecting his qb to complete less than 50% of his passes and throw 2 picks.
In 2019 he managed just 13 points before throwing a puck 6.

So by your logic Brady cost us 9 SBs.

And yes just about every one of those performances had more to do with not winning than one coaching decision.

So if Brady is the GOAT despite all of these failings, which he is, why would you detract from Belichicks legacy by pretending a couple of decisions would wipe out all of his success?

 

[crawhammer]

Then I would disagree with those people as well. He is absolutely in the top 5-10.

100%... Bradshaw is in the top 5-10.

What people? Why do their opinions matter?

@MAC10 for starters. lol he's already pumping up Mahomes Super Bowl record to 6-1! To go along with "a ton" of NFL MVP awards. This is the exact madness I'm referring to.

 

[crawhammer]

So if Brady is the GOAT despite all of these failings, which he is, why would you detract from Belichicks legacy by pretending a couple of decisions would wipe out all of his success?

lol I never said that. Not once.

So by your logic Brady cost us 9 SBs.

I'm pretty sure that's not through my logic. I'm the one who skews everything in Brady's favor, remember?

In 2005 the patriots lost because Brady could only put up 13 points and threw 2 picks including a 100 yard almost pick 6. If the patriots had a qb who could put up more than 13 points against a good (6 net) they could have won the SB.
IN 2007 Brady, with generational weapons, could only put up 14 points against a team that was 17th in points allowed. If the Qb could have put up 18 we win the SB.
IN 2009 we scored only 14 points in a playoff loss and Brady threw 3 picks. How is a coaching decision about a guy the coach thought wasn’t able to play at a competitive level worse than 154 passing yards on 42 attempts and 3 picks?
In 2010 Brady threw an early pick and put up 14 points until a garbage time td down 14 with 24 seconds left
In 2011 Brady decided to ground the ball with no one near him and take a safety then put up on 17 points all game and again threw a pick.
In 2012 after belichick coached his way to HFA (apparently a guaranteed sb) Brady threw 2 picks and put up 13 points at home. Does playing like crap not count as much as a decision you don’t like?
In 2013 Brady put up 16 points AT Denver partly because he gave away HFA in Miami by throwing a pick from parallel to the ground.
In 2015 in Denver he was 27-56 with 2 picks and 18 points. Maybe belichick didn’t fear Denver because he wasn’t expecting his qb to complete less than 50% of his passes and throw 2 picks.
In 2019 he managed just 13 points before throwing a puck 6.

This obviously is blatant sarcasm.

You argue that the player is more important than the coach and then blame the coaching decision for every loss.
And what makes it stupid is not I have to counter that making it seem like I’m throwing out blame. The reality is that there are thousands of reasons teams won and lose. Boiling it down to “that decision cost them a SB” is ridiculous and lacks any real thought.

Yes, Belichick and I firmly believe and will argue the player is more important than the coach. So I am on the side of the head coach who admits and knows better than any head coach ever the importance of the player.

I generally agree about the accumulation of plays, and decisions, good and bad, effecting the outcome of the game. However, when Bledsoe throws 4 picks in the Super Bowl then I can say he pretty much blew it. When Brady throws for a record 505 while Belichick has sat a key defensive starter who played 98% of snaps for the entire season, and they lose a shootout in which yardage records are shattered, then I'm blaming the head coach for that one. How could you not?

 

[cmasspatsfan]

NE fans only represent 3% or so of the NFL fanbase, so what the remaining 97% thinks matters if you are the type to care about Brady's legacy as being the GOAT.

Brady's 10 year drought between 2004 and 2014 gives Mahomes an opening if he can win SBs every few years. If he wins 2 SBs every 5 years, he'll get 6 more. How many more SBs gets may depend very well on how many years Andy Reid has left.

Simple as that? In 2005 before the AFCCG it looked like TB would win another one, hell at halftime it looked like a lock with the Bears looming, then what happened? It's not as easy as it looks when they're winning. It looked like TB would win 3-4-5 in a row no problem. So many things have to go right to win multiple super bowls.

 

[Ring 6]

lol I never said that. Not once.


I'm pretty sure that's not through my logic. I'm the one who skews everything in Brady's favor, remember?


This obviously is blatant sarcasm.


Yes, Belichick and I firmly believe and will argue the player is more important than the coach. So I am on the side of the head coach who admits and knows better than any head coach ever the importance of the player.

I generally agree about the accumulation of plays, and decisions, good and bad, effecting the outcome of the game. However, when Bledsoe throws 4 picks in the Super Bowl then I can say he pretty much blew it. When Brady throws for a record 505 while Belichick has sat a key defensive starter who played 98% of snaps for the entire season, and they lose a shootout in which yardage records are shattered, then I'm blaming the head coach for that one. How could you not?

So you admit you are using a double standard.
Your logic is a decision cost a game but you can’t accept that a qb playing poorly cost a game?
You have no idea what would have happened if unprepared Malcolm Butler had played, it’s just an excuse. We do know what would have happened if Brady could have put up more points. We know for sure they would have won those games. If players mean more than coaches how can a coach be to blame for a loss because you THINK he made a bad decision but a player can’t when they clearly played poorly.
Here are the points scored in patriot losses with Brady
13
34
14
14
21
17
13
16
18
33
13
So if Malcolm butler can be blamed for one loss and Bledsoe throwing 4 picks can be blamed his can you not place blame on the QB for 8 losses where he averaged 17 ppg?
If a single coaching decision causes you to take the GOAT title away from the guy who won the most, why wouldn’t so many paltry offensive games impact the view of the GOAT QB?

 

[sb1]

Brady added to his legacy by winning a SB away from Bill.

IMO Bill doesn’t have to win a title to do the same thing. A successful rebuild of this team into a contender while keeping them more or less competitive in the rebuild phase is something that has to my knowledge never been done by a dual coach/GM. If Bb can do that then that might be a step forward for him that distinguishes him among the coaching greats of the sport other than just rings.

Brady winning #7 means a lot more to his own legacy than ring #9 would mean for BB. Rings are a player accomplishment more than coach.

 

[RobertWeathers]

100%... Bradshaw is in the top 5-10.


@MAC10 for starters. lol he's already pumping up Mahomes Super Bowl record to 6-1! To go along with "a ton" of NFL MVP awards. This is the exact madness I'm referring to.

He trolls the Brady lovers. Whatever.

 

[Wozzy]

Devin McCourty Discusses Possibility Of Not Playing For Patriots

If Devin McCourty decides to continue his playing career, he likely only will do so for the New England Patriots.

nesn.com

Did you mistakenly post this link meant for someone else?

 

[Wozzy]

Brady wanted out of Tampa Bay and he had a possible scheme going with Sean Payton and Miami but it got completely blown up by the Flores lawsuit. Also, Brady realized the Bucs weren't going to let him shake loose under any scenario so he had no choice other than going back to Tampa Bay. Ultimately Bowles killed the 2022 season for the Bucs and in the process he sucked Brady dry of any desire to continue his NFL career. The Bucs obviously will be tanking in 2023 because that's the only reason I can come up for Bowles keeping his job.

The Brady-Arians beef was over Antonio Brown, not X's and O's, so Brady would have been fine with Arians in 2022. It's become apparent that Arians stepped down due to age and health.

Some real ball washing going on here... this is like that time Lebron had no undue influence on the teams he managed.

#Fangasms

 

[Real fan 02]

Did you mistakenly post this link meant for someone else?

Yes my apologies it for one the of Mac haters on here I was talking with the other day. My apologies

 

[Wozzy]

Brother, you think Belichick is the hero most responsible for the dynasty and I think it's Brady. It all boils down to one magic head coach for you. Belichick would be the first person to tell you that your opinion, while flattering, is utter garbage.

"I always say players win games and coaches lose games" ~ Bill Belichick

I actually think Kraft is most responsible for hiring Belichick who is most responsible for hiring Brady. Bill has been in charge of football operations since 2000.

The difference between us, is I can be scathing in my criticism of Belichick's decisions and understand how football is a team sport consisting of three phases and 53 players. You think Brady poops gold nuggets and can actually cure cancer and concussions.

You also think the QB position is responsible for everything in football and needs little to no help. It's an unrealistic, child-like, fantasy football centric interpretation of football that's insulting to everyone else involved who put their bodies on the line so QB's can get all the glory... and it's completely wrong.

I've never seen a QB block for himself, catch his owns passes, play defense, sack someone, play in pass coverage, kick a field goal or cover kickoffs. I've also seen Tom Brady look terrible when his blocking was terrible... so that ends the conversation right there... but you persist in showing up and telling us the best coach in history sucks at his job whilst also being the guy who drafted Brady.

Can you show us on this doll where Bill Belichick touched you?

 

[Wozzy]

No. If Mahomes continues to light it up every regular season and he reaches 8 rings then he'll surpass Brady. Good luck.

I doubt Andy Reid will live that long, never mind coach that long.

The same way Brady needed a good program and coaching around him, so does everyone else.