BB THE GOAT

[sb1]

People say the real “genius move” for Bill would have been picking Tom Brady with the team’s first pick of the draft.

I think Bill might not have made it to his first regular season with the Patriots if he did that.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

How do you figure that?
Belichick has 6 rings. Belichick has 19 playoff appearances and 31 playoff wins in 28 years.
“This logic” is RESULTS. And of course Belichick is the GOAT

Putting lipstick on a pig? 3 playoff wins in 11 years. GOATS aren’t GOATS because they are over .500 most of the time or make excuses.
2 division titles and 5 post season appearances in 11 years is mediocre.

0 division titles, 2 playofs in 10 years for bb , this is your logic, accept it

 

[lancerman]

Weird take. I’ll take the fear strategy for 6 titles over the fun way for 2.

I mean the issue is would Bill win Super Bowls if his QB's were McNabb and Alex Smith? Because Reid is proving that when you finally give him a guy that is Brady caliber, he also will be in the AFCCG game every year and start winning titles like Bill did when he had a Brady caliber QB. Not trying to pull what some undesirable poster has been doing, but we don't know how much Reid more will win with Mahomes over the next few years.

The next few years could change the entire calculus where people say "with an elite QB, Reid was keeping the same pace Bill did with Brady, but without an elite QB, Reid had the higher floor".

Point is, Bill really is kind of at a point in his career where there's enough of a sample size to say "wait the 10 years you coached without Brady are night and day different". I don't if that's fair because Bill kinda had to start from scratch in almost all of his stints without Brady. But it is fair to say that the current Patriots are a result of Bill's poor team construction and coaching decisions over the last 5 or so years.

So there is going to be that caveat if he doesn't start winning without Brady. The 6 Super Bowls will always keep him in the GOAT discussion. But the way Brady shut the discussion down in the QB category for winning without Bill is something that Bill needs to do to totally shut out that way for someone else to get in the argument.

 

[Real fan 02]

His detractors do not care about context.

In 1991 BB inherited a 3-13 Browns team and without the benefit of FA his first 2 yeas and an owner with deep pockets (and sanity), he got them to 11-5 and the playoffs 3 years later which IMO is a pretty good achievement. Things might have gone differently in 1995 had the owner not f__cked the team culture by announcing the move to BAL in the middle of the season.

In 2000 he inherited a 5-11 NEP team with cap problems and an overpaid, underperforming and imbalanced roster. In 2001 he made a whole bunch a FA acquisitions, started the QB he felt was best for the team and won the SB with great defense and special teams and just enough offense.

In 2008 he went 11-5 without the GOAT QB, a true shutdown CB and an aging defense with a horrible pass defense.

In 2020 he cleaned up the cap. Rebuilding again.

In 2021 they drafted a QB who went to the Pro Bowl and they were back in the playoffs.

IMO 2022 was really the only year BB can look in the mirror and truly blame coaching for their horrible year.

2015 injuries did them in. We can argue all day about the MIA game. They were protecting Tom b/c the line sucked. No JE and the throws to Gronk were protecting him as the 2 catches on 7 targets indicates.

I blame 2006 on BB the GM. Being a penny wise and a pound foolish re: Deion was the difference between them and the Dolts.

Absolutely the facts spoken!!!!!!

I'd like to add those years with a real bending defense "09, 10, 11, 12, 13

We made the playoffs and even went to a superbowl allowing 400 plus passing yards per game..

He seemed to transition allowing TB to control the offense and we had to outscore opponents as those were some awesome statical years from the offense..

2010 is year that doesn't get mentioned to much.. we only lost 2 games @ jets and @ browns.. the Payton hillis game

However Brady was masterful with gronk and Hernandez, theses guys seemed to contribute right away.. the defense was a turnover machine the secondary seemed to make plays every game.. still Giving up yards put the playmaking ability was there including a rookie McCourty at CB..

Just wanted to touch on 06 lastly.. if you go back to the 05 off -season not resigning ty law who was still in his prime as he was looking for 9 million per year..

Also loosing willie to the browns..

Those 2 moves there hurt us the next season.. if willie and law are here in 06 we definitely keep the lead in Indy and win to go on to smother Rex Grossman in the superbowl!!!

 

[Real fan 02]

A quarterback wasn't much on Belichick's radar obviously. I just think that he drafted him only looks good on his resume in hindsight.

That is definitely sensible.. as I believe Drew had just gotten a new deal right?

Something BB and his staff had to see in Brady that they took him.. we'll never know until Brady's HOF appearance.. I suppose

 

[ivanvamp]

That's not a debate at all. Neither is this but it happens nonetheless: Who is more important to the New England Patriots Dynasty 2001-2018... Brady or Belichick?

Oh I didn't realize this thread was about this "debate". I thought it was simply about BB as the greatest HC of all time. Which is pretty much a non-debate as well, the answer being an emphatic YES.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

His detractors do not care about context.

In 1991 BB inherited a 3-13 Browns team and without the benefit of FA his first 2 yeas and an owner with deep pockets (and sanity), he got them to 11-5 and the playoffs 3 years later which IMO is a pretty good achievement. Things might have gone differently in 1995 had the owner not f__cked the team culture by announcing the move to BAL in the middle of the season.

In 2000 he inherited a 5-11 NEP team with cap problems and an overpaid, underperforming and imbalanced roster. In 2001 he made a whole bunch a FA acquisitions, started the QB he felt was best for the team and won the SB with great defense and special teams and just enough offense.

In 2008 he went 11-5 without the GOAT QB, a true shutdown CB and an aging defense with a horrible pass defense.

In 2020 he cleaned up the cap. Rebuilding again.

In 2021 they drafted a QB who went to the Pro Bowl and they were back in the playoffs.

IMO 2022 was really the only year BB can look in the mirror and truly blame coaching for their horrible year.

2015 injuries did them in. We can argue all day about the MIA game. They were protecting Tom b/c the line sucked. No JE and the throws to Gronk were protecting him as the 2 catches on 7 targets indicates.

I blame 2006 on BB the GM. Being a penny wise and a pound foolish re: Deion was the difference between them and the Dolts.

Thanks for doing some of the leg work on the Cleveland years as i had failed to address those. But yeah, its really not fair if people want to kill bb over not having great success in the Cleveland years. In fact, he did do a pretty solid job turning that team around until the final lost season.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That is definitely sensible.. as I believe Drew had just gotten a new deal right?

Something BB and his staff had to see in Brady that they took him.. we'll never know until Brady's HOF appearance.. I suppose

His deal was cosmetic.

There was a reason they kept 4 QBs in 2000.

 

[Real fan 02]

His deal was cosmetic.

There was a reason they kept 4 QBs in 2000.

Yeah and those days are long gone.. average teams keep 2 and stash one maybe on the practice squad

 

[Ring 6]

0 division titles, 2 playofs in 10 years for bb , this is your logic, accept it

Wrong.
In the last 10 years belichick has won 3 SBs, gone to the playoffs 8 times and won the division 7 times.
Funny that a patriot fan wouldn’t know that.

 

[Ring 6]

0 division titles, 2 playofs in 10 years for bb , this is your logic, accept it

But just so I understand, you are actually arguing the Bill Parcells had a better coaching career than Bill Belichick? Is that really what you think?

 

[sb1]

IMO Bill wasn’t quite ready for prime time as a HC when he was in Cleveland. Like how Pete wasn’t either when he was here.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yeah and those days are long gone.. average teams keep 2 and stash one maybe on the practice squad

We had 3 last year and needed all 3.

2000 was strange. We had Drew a year from FA (which made things uncertain for a bit), John Friez and Michael Bishop. That lanky kid from Michigan showed just enough to stick around......

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Wrong.
In the last 10 years belichick has won 3 SBs, gone to the playoffs 8 times and won the division 7 times.
Funny that a patriot fan wouldn’t know that.

lol
the stats were obviuously not from the last 10 years, funny how you react after losing an argument

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

But just so I understand, you are actually arguing the Bill Parcells had a better coaching career than Bill Belichick? Is that really what you think?

no obv not, you said what makes a mediocre carreer and i gave you stats from BB which exactly fit that definition mady by you, but you obv won't accept that this applies for BB as well then

 

[RobertWeathers]

IMO Bill wasn’t quite ready for prime time as a HC when he was in Cleveland. Like how Pete wasn’t either when he was here.

No question and Bill acknowledged that.

 

[Ring 6]

lol
the stats were obviuously not from the last 10 years, funny how you react after losing an argument

How did I lose an argument? I listed Parcells record for 11 years in a row, his non Giant career. You responded with something inane. What ten year period were you referring to?

 

[Ring 6]

no obv not, you said what makes a mediocre carreer and i gave you stats from BB which exactly fit that definition mady by you, but you obv won't accept that this applies for BB as well then

What 10 year period are you referring to?
I did not say Parcells career was mediocre. I said coaching for 11 years and making the playoffs 5 times and winning the division twice is mediocre.
During those years the divisions had 4 or 5 teams in them, so average would be winning every 4 or 5 years. He won 2/11. Do you not consider that mediocre?
The number of teams and playoff spots change but roughly the average in those years was 12/30 made the playoffs, about 40%. Parcells made the playoffs 5/11 or 44%, as close to average as possible. Do you not consider that mediocre?

 

[sb1]

Parcells was a builder. His drafts helped create Dynasty 1.0 here. He also made the Jets relevant in the late 90's and I don't have any positive things to say about how he did that but he did.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

How did I lose an argument? I listed Parcells record for 11 years in a row, his non Giant career. You responded with something inane. What ten year period were you referring to?

the 10 year period @crawhammer mentioned