Game Day Thread Official Post Game Thread- Pats beat Arizona

[Lagaffe_07]

I have a feeling QB contracts will start to change from this season. Unless you are elite, nobody is gonna give 100 mill guaranteed when you can get the same output from rookie QBs at fraction of cost. Something similar to RB market is gonna happen.at least we all know Mac is not elite , so we might be expecting Kirk cousins or below standard of play .

Maybe. I personally don’t think so.

It’s already very hard to win with a top 5 QB that I feel team will always search for the QB that can put you in the mix every and give you the most chance to win one. There is value in that.

In honesty how many rookies right now produce the same output as the 100+ M guaranteed QB?

Team will always pay more for average output with a QB. Having a bad QB is much more detrimental than having a bad RB. That’s why teams will pay a lot of money for guys that just won’t kill their chances.

 

[Love The Drake]

Could you imagine Lamar Jackson running this offense with Thornton and Jones.
It would be incredibly difficult to defend that speed.
It would be incredibly tempting.
There’s another part of me who would like to see what Jordan Love could do who is suppose to demand a trade if Aaron comes back.

 

[Rob0729]

How much of it is Mac's responsibility?

Unfortunately, because of situation, it is impossible tell. All I know it is majority on the coaching.

 

[crawhammer]

Totally agree . 50% of Superbowl wins are by game managers

This definitely is an untrue statement.

Going back to 1999 (23 seasons)... Brady, P. Manning and Roethlisberger have won 11 Super Bowls. Then one each for Warner, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes and Stafford... that's 6 more... so far 17 of 23, which is already 74% non-game managers.

2001 Ravens qualify as having a game manger quarterback situation (Banks and Dilfer).
Does Brad Johnson for 2002 Buccaneers count as a game manager? He finished the season 8th in TDs, 8th in Y/G, and 3rd in passer rating.
Eli Manning has the two wins against the Patriots. I don't consider Eli a game manager. He was a high pass attempt quarterback. And giving credit where credit is due, Eli was great in the 2007 and 2011 postseasons, totaling 15 TDs and only 2 INTs.
I don't consider Flacco a game manager either. He also had a phenomenal 2012 postseason... 11 TDs, 0 INT, 117.2 passer rating.
The only quarterback left is Nick Foles who essentially is a career backup. But he was hardly a game manager in the 2017 postseason... 324 Y/G, 9.2 Y/A, 6 TDs, 1 INT, 115.7 passer rating.

Ultimately I count 1 true game manager Super Bowl winner since 1999. 2 if you twist my arm into adding Brad Johnson.

Generally HOF quarterbacks, or quarterbacks who have outstanding postseasons, win Super Bowls.

 

[Rob0729]

Some good analysis from Dan Orlovsky. The second video shows where Matt Patricia the O-line Coach is a big problem with the o-line. He pointing out how the o-line keeps making the same mistakes with blocking assignments. The o-line coach should be coaching that up and fixing it. Obviously, they are not. Orlovsky claims this is basic stuff they are screwing up.

 

[crawhammer]

Unfortunately, because of situation, it is impossible tell. All I know it is majority on the coaching.

Which coach? Belichick? Because Mac hasn't been playing well since week 13 of last season when he had McDaniels. In Mac's last 16 games (essentially a full season), he has 15 TDs, 15 INTs, and the team is 7-9 in his starts. I think Patricia has done a very poor job as an OC/play-caller but if we're being entirely fair, Mac's decline started last season when he still had McDaniels.

 

[Toofy]

Maybe. I personally don’t think so.

It’s already very hard to win with a top 5 QB that I feel team will always search for the QB that can put you in the mix every and give you the most chance to win one. There is value in that.

In honesty how many rookies right now produce the same output as the 100+ M guaranteed QB?

Team will always pay more for average output with a QB. Having a bad QB is much more detrimental than having a bad RB. That’s why teams will pay a lot of money for guys that just won’t kill their chances.

What about a bad QB contract like Wilson. It pulls franchisees back by 5 -7 years

 

[Rob0729]

Which coach? Belichick? Because Mac hasn't been playing well since week 13 of last season when he had McDaniels. In Mac's last 16 games (essentially a full season), he has 15 TDs, 15 INTs, and the team is 7-9 in his starts. I think Patricia has done a very poor job as an OC/play-caller but if we're being entirely fair, Mac's decline started last season when he still had McDaniels.

How Jones played down the stretch last year has been blown out of proportion by the anti-Mac crowd. Yes, he absolutely sucked in the second Bills game. And he was awesome in the Jags game. Other than the Howard INT, Jones was good against the Dolphins. He was really good in the second half against the Colts (he and the rest of the team came out flat in the first half). And he was ok against the Bills in the playoffs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Coaches are easily changed. Is Mac a franchise QB with new coaching? Will the coaching make him move better in the pocket? Set his feet correctly? Be less nervous?

I think there is a lot about Mac's movement and anticipation that are lacking and I am not sure the coaching is to blame. After 2021 I thought Mac was a lock. Now I am not sure and a lot of that is on him, IMO.

Agree there are questions surrounding Mac's potential and ability to improve.

It's up to the org to provide the very best coaching and on-field talent to maximize his potential

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I blame the offensive line on him being nervous. He isn't some seasoned vet who can stand their and operate under constant quick pressure, heck even vets get rattled with shaky offensive line play. Make both tackle positions a priority this off-season, put a solid line in front of him then we can properly judge him imo. I'm a Mac fan, I think he can be a franchise QB with the right tools around him.

I hope so. I have seen some QBs with shaky Olines who do get rattled, and some that don't. Therefore I am not sure it is the Oline. The emotional outbursts also concern me because the outbursts might indicate a nervous person as well. I have heavily advocated for 2 new offensive tackles, and not stop gap players like a weak left tackle who can magically become a strong right tackle. We need 2 professional NFL tackles.

 

[Rob0729]

Coaches are easily changed. Is Mac a franchise QB with new coaching? Will the coaching make him move better in the pocket? Set his feet correctly? Be less nervous?

I think there is a lot about Mac's movement and anticipation that are lacking and I am not sure the coaching is to blame. After 2021 I thought Mac was a lock. Now I am not sure and a lot of that is on him, IMO.

Based on the coaching last year and Jones' production, the answer is yes to all three of your questions. Jones moved around the pocket just fine last year. For the most part, he set his feet correctly although he did throw off his back foot a little too much at times last year. And Jones didn't seem to get rattled last year. Josh McDaniels is a worlds better OC than Patricia and the results on the field with Jones were far better.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Unfortunately, because of situation, it is impossible tell. All I know it is majority on the coaching.

But if we change the coaching and Mac still sucks, what do we do? Blame something else? The majority does not matter if we want to fix the whole situation. Have to address the total problem, not pieces of the problem. Mac is part of the problem, that has to be addressed along with the coaching issue.

 

[Rob0729]

But if we change the coaching and Mac still sucks, what do we do? Blame something else? The majority does not matter if we want to fix the whole situation. Have to address the total problem, not pieces of the problem. Mac is part of the problem, that has to be addressed along with the coaching issue.

Let's see him with a competent coaching staff and then I will make that determination. Again, he went to the Pro Bowl (although as an alternate and it isn't as big of an achievement as it used to be) and came in second in OROY voting with a competent OC last year.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Based on the coaching last year and Jones' production, the answer is yes to all three of your questions. Jones moved around the pocket just fine last year. For the most part, he set his feet correctly although he did throw off his back foot a little too much at times last year. And Jones didn't seem to get rattled last year. Josh McDaniels is a worlds better OC than Patricia and the results on the field with Jones were far better.

I think McDaniels is better than Patricia, but once teams put 8 guys in the box and took away the middle and the short game, Mac was awful the last 5 games and the playoffs. You are looking at the whole year, but only the end of the year leading into 2022 matters. Mac finished weak so something had to change. No need to talk about how Mac started last year, or how Mac averaged last year, what is important is how he progressed and finished, which was not good. I like Mac and hope the best for him.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

That’s an interesting development. Uche is making his impact felt in the obvious passing downs. But can he play the run and cover in the passing game to become a complete linebacker?

I think so. But there’s been a lot of coaching and film study behind the scenes. People have been blasé at his lack of experience in college and the pros.

Is he more than a third and long pass rusher?

Lets hope

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Let's see him with a competent coaching staff and then I will make that determination. Again, he went to the Pro Bowl (although as an alternate and it isn't as big of an achievement as it used to be) and came in second in OROY voting with a competent OC last year.

Waiting to fix known issues one at a time is how bad NFL franchises are managed. Have to fix the whole problem, and Mac is part of the whole problem. Again, Mac did not progress well and finished weakly last year. No reason to mask that if we want to fix the whole problem.

 

[crawhammer]

How Jones played down the stretch last year has been blown out of proportion by the anti-Mac crowd. Yes, he absolutely sucked in the second Bills game. And he was awesome in the Jags game. Other than the Howard INT, Jones was good against the Dolphins. He was really good in the second half against the Colts (he and the rest of the team came out flat in the first half). And he was ok against the Bills in the playoffs.

That was the Patriots only win of their last 5 games of the season. That loss was the Jag's 8th in a row, they were terrible, we trounced a bad football team, which we're prone to do. The problem has been beating anyone who's decent. Mac needs to play better against the better opponents... after they beat the Raiders, the final three games will decide their season, so we'll see what Mac comes up with vs CIN, MIA and @BUF.

 

[Toofy]

This definitely is an untrue statement.

Going back to 1999 (23 seasons)... Brady, P. Manning and Roethlisberger have won 11 Super Bowls. Then one each for Warner, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes and Stafford... that's 6 more... so far 17 of 23, which is already 74% non-game managers.

2001 Ravens qualify as having a game manger quarterback situation (Banks and Dilfer).
Does Brad Johnson for 2002 Buccaneers count as a game manager? He finished the season 8th in TDs, 8th in Y/G, and 3rd in passer rating.
Eli Manning has the two wins against the Patriots. I don't consider Eli a game manager. He was a high pass attempt quarterback. And giving credit where credit is due, Eli was great in the 2007 and 2011 postseasons, totaling 15 TDs and only 2 INTs.
I don't consider Flacco a game manager either. He also had a phenomenal 2012 postseason... 11 TDs, 0 INT, 117.2 passer rating.
The only quarterback left is Nick Foles who essentially is a career backup. But he was hardly a game manager in the 2017 postseason... 324 Y/G, 9.2 Y/A, 6 TDs, 1 INT, 115.7 passer rating.

Ultimately I count 1 true game manager Super Bowl winner since 1999. 2 if you twist my arm into adding Brad Johnson.

Generally HOF quarterbacks, or quarterbacks who have outstanding postseasons, win Super Bowls.

This definitely is an untrue statement.

Going back to 1999 (23 seasons)... Brady, P. Manning and Roethlisberger have won 11 Super Bowls. Then one each for Warner, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes and Stafford... that's 6 more... so far 17 of 23, which is already 74% non-game managers.

2001 Ravens qualify as having a game manger quarterback situation (Banks and Dilfer).
Does Brad Johnson for 2002 Buccaneers count as a game manager? He finished the season 8th in TDs, 8th in Y/G, and 3rd in passer rating.
Eli Manning has the two wins against the Patriots. I don't consider Eli a game manager. He was a high pass attempt quarterback. And giving credit where credit is due, Eli was great in the 2007 and 2011 postseasons, totaling 15 TDs and only 2 INTs.
I don't consider Flacco a game manager either. He also had a phenomenal 2012 postseason... 11 TDs, 0 INT, 117.2 passer rating.
The only quarterback left is Nick Foles who essentially is a career backup. But he was hardly a game manager in the 2017 postseason... 324 Y/G, 9.2 Y/A, 6 TDs, 1 INT, 115.7 passer rating.

Ultimately I count 1 true game manager Super Bowl winner since 1999. 2 if you twist my arm into adding Brad Johnson.

Generally HOF quarterbacks, or quarterbacks who have outstanding postseasons, win Super Bowls.

Brady skews it big time . It's not gonna happen again. We got lucky. Leaving Brady Superbowls we had

Rodgers (1)
Ben (2)
Eli (2)
Flacco
Brees(1)
Peak Manning (1)
Non peak Manning (1)
Foles
Mahomes
Stafford

Ben did not completely carry and had all pro defense. Same goes with Eli, Stafford , foles, manning with broncos and flacco. So that's 7 out of 12 years . Let's say it's cherry picking it can still be 5 out of 12 .

My point is you need a great team and when you have a game manager pullibg above his weight to a certain extent we can win Superbowl , not consistently but occasionally.

 

[Rob0729]

I think McDaniels is better than Patricia, but once teams put 8 guys in the box and took away the middle and the short game, Mac was awful the last 5 games and the playoffs. You are looking at the whole year, but only the end of the year leading into 2022 matters. Mac finished weak so something had to change. No need to talk about how Mac started last year, or how Mac averaged last year, what is important is how he progressed and finished, which was not good. I like Mac and hope the best for him.

Again, he wasn't awful in the last five games and the playoffs last year. That is anti-Mac rewriting of history. Again, he played horrible against the Bills in the second game and in the first half of the Colts game. Otherwise he played ok to great the rest of the time.

 

[Rob0729]

That was the Patriots only win of their last 5 games of the season. That loss was the Jag's 8th in a row, they were terrible, we trounced a bad football team, which we're prone to do. The problem has been beating anyone who's decent. Mac needs to play better against the better opponents... after they beat the Raiders, the final three games will decide their season, so we'll see what Mac comes up with vs CIN, MIA and @BUF.

But is that on Mac or the defense completely falling apart? In the five losses (including the playoffs), the Pats gave up 27, 33, 33, and 47 points. Yes, the Miami game, seven came from a pick six. Jones could have had career games in both of the Bills' losses and still the Pats probably still lose. The Bills didn't punt once in either of those games.

People want to blame Jones for the losses at the end of the season yet ignore that the defense completely fell apart down the stretch.