Mac Jones is the Starter [Update - Mac is starting vs the Jete, says BB]

[crawhammer]

How does it take the air out of these percentages? Perry is making the point that the more vertical offense is a big part of the reason for Jones' struggles. The six INTs supports that argument.

I meant as in "not a good thing." We're agreeing... you and I and Perry. If Mac's the guy moving forward then they need to shorten his throws. Ironically some people are pointing to the Baltimore game, when he was throwing downfield on a number of passes, as evidence for it working... he had 3 picks and a 62.1 passer rating. That's not good. Even his TD pass in the Pittsburgh game took a great effort from Agholor to rip the ball away from the defender.

 

[PatsFan2]

I meant as in "not a good thing." We're agreeing... you and I and Perry. If Mac's the guy moving forward then they need to shorten his throws. Ironically some people are pointing to the Baltimore game, when he was throwing downfield on a number of passes, as evidence for it working... he had 3 picks and a 62.1 passer rating. That's not good. Even his TD pass in the Pittsburgh game took a great effort from Agholor to rip the ball away from the defender.

The play had luck written all over it I am sure the CB is kicking himself after watching the replays saying I could have had it.

 

[venecol]

Mac Jones came from a system that ran mostly RPOs and play action. Jones excelled in that system.

And pulling guards and selling the play action with other players has nothing to do with how well Jones can sell the play action. If he has trouble selling or executing the play action, it would be more imperative for the Patriots to sell the play action in other ways like pulling the guard when they give Jones a play action play.

IDK, last year I remember when called play action plays, Jones did a good job. In fact, last year his completion percentage was far better when he did play action than when he didn’t. Here is an article from December of last year talking about Jones in play action during his rookie campaign.

At this point in the NFL campaign, Jones is one of the more successful passers when the Patriots dial up play-action designs. According to charting data from Pro Football Focus, Jones has an Adjusted Completion Percentage (ACP) of 82.8% on play-action designs this season, tying him for fifth-best in the league with Dak Prescott among qualified passers. His raw completion percentage jumps from 67.8% to 77.1% when using play-action, and that difference of 9.3% is fifth-best in the league among qualified passers.

Overall, Jones has completed 81 of 105 passes for 1,001 yards and four touchdowns, against three interceptions, when using play-action this season.

How Mac Jones and the Patriots lean on play-action in the passing game

When the Buffalo Bills host the New England Patriots on Monday Night Football, first place in the AFC East will be on the line. There is no shortage of storylines to tonight's contest, as even the weather might be a factor when these rivals square off. A six-game winning…

touchdownwire.usatoday.com

We have proof that Jones excelled in the play action last year under McDaniels. Yet, Patricia calls it for him about 10% of the time and for Zappe well over 30% of the time. The narrative of them not calling the right plays for Mac is true. The facts are there. Mac Jones is a very good play action QB and they don’t call play action for him and when they do they don’t sell the play action.

Like @RobertWeathers says, that narrative is BS.

 

[venecol]

"Oh, it wasn't a lie, just a joke! You should know! You're just emotional because of Zappe fans, you'll be OK! Mac might throw a pick-6 vs. the Jets! Bet the over on his interceptions! I'm just being a realist!"

Never in the history of Patsfans.com have I seen a member so fully invested in wanting to see a New England quarterback fail. And I've been here 18 years.

If Mac Jones plays poorly Sunday, perhaps throwing an interception or two, you'll be thumping your chest with I-told-you-so and the "I'm just a realist" B.S. It won't matter to you that the Pats lost; in fact, you'll be thrilled. Because you will have more fodder for your childish campaign.

Not once have you said you don't care who's behind center as long as the Patriots win. I have challenged you on this multiple times with no response. You're beyond pathetic.

You sound hysterical. Look around, I'm not the only one questioning what's going on with the team, from coaching staff to Mac's clear regression. But hey, keep your head buried. Maybe you can win the Patriots bestest rEAl pATs fAn award this year.

 

[Rob0729]

Like @RobertWeathers says, that narrative is BS.

So Bedard and Kyed have conflicting information. I know Bedard studies the coaches' film. I am not sure Kyed does. So who knows who is right.

And Kyed is only talking about one game where Jones only passed six passes.

And notice when Zappe doesn't take snaps under center, he turtles (four passes tipped at the line and two INTs). Zappe needs to be under center and take a deep drop back from what I have seen. In the shotgun, he loses the ability to drop back deep since he is flat footed. His two best passes were play action (the Meyers TD and the Parker sideline pass).

Can we both agree that there is an issue with Zappe playing out of the shotgun?

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Guys it's real simple. Against the useless Lions and Browns, the Pats were running all over the D.
This is only a 100-year old concept - If you can establish the run and keep producing on the ground, you will be successful in the pass game.
The Pats couldn't run it at all vs. MIA or CHI, both Mac losses. They ran pretty well vs. BAL, but that's where Mac was truly forcing some bad passes and trying to kick the (doomed) pass scheme into place.
Fact is - Matty P called new/different plays the moment Zappe entered the game vs. Bears. Don't know why.
Maybe he does have a grudge, and a favorite. But, BB better crack that down asap, or threaten Matt's job if he's going rogue for his own mind games. It's time to put everything in for Mac's program, and see if he can handle it and win.

It could be as simple as adjusting to the way Chicago was playing defense that was not specific to the QB. If fat mat is sabotaging Mac, that is a fireable offense.

 

[Kontradiction]

Behind a lot of this are spiteful Tom Brady fans who don't want to see BB have success with another quarterback.

Kind of funny to see that this obviously wrong talking point is still kicking around more than a decade later. The format has changed, but it’s still here. The basic notion that people are more fans of being right than watching the team they like win. That doesn’t hold water, good sir. A reply to you says that the “Brady crowd,” which should actually cover every Patriots fan, is pro-Zappe/anti-Mac. For one, that is obviously not true. For another, being pro-Zappe = wanting to see BB have success with another QB, since Zappe is under contract with the Patriots for at least the next four years.

I’m a Mac guy. Zappe has a lot of his own issues, which were on display Monday night. That doesn’t mean that Mac isn’t without his own problems. Those should be talked about without having to run into the usual dogshit and lazy accusations of being a fan of [insert team here], being a “Brady stan,” or “hating BB.” He’s been predetermining where he’s going to go with the ball before the snap, doesn’t feel pressure, takes too long to go through his reads at times, stares down his primary receiver, and has thrown the ball off his back foot all season. Those are all facts which anyone who wants to go with Mac over Zappe should be able to admit.

 

[PatsFan2]

Kind of funny to see that this obviously wrong talking point is still kicking around more than a decade later. The format has changed, but it’s still here. The basic notion that people are more fans of being right than watching the team they like win. That doesn’t hold water, good sir. A reply to you says that the “Brady crowd,” which should actually cover every Patriots fan, is pro-Zappe/anti-Mac. For one, that is obviously not true. For another, being pro-Zappe = wanting to see BB have success with another QB, since Zappe is under contract with the Patriots for at least the next four years.

I’m a Mac guy. Zappe has a lot of his own issues, which were on display Monday night. That doesn’t mean that Mac isn’t without his own problems. Those should be talked about without having to run into the usual dogshit and lazy accusations of being a fan of [insert team here], being a “Brady stan,” or “hating BB.” He’s been predetermining where he’s going to go with the ball before the snap, doesn’t feel pressure, takes too long to go through his reads at times, stares down his primary receiver, and has thrown the ball off his back foot all season. Those are all facts which anyone who wants to go with Mac over Zappe should be able to admit.

Teams are inquiring about Meyers who is Mac's favorite target: would BB be doing Mac any favors if he trades away his favorite target?? What if BB feels he can get something for a guy he has no intension to resign? When it rains it pours for Mac if this happens.

 

[Rob0729]

BTW @venecol, you take away Zappe's two passes from under center with play action in the Bears game, he is 12 for 20 for 87 yards and two INTs. Under center with play action, he is two for two for 98 yards and a TD. Let him play Mac Jones' offense and he wilts.

This goes to the height issue. Zappe has to take a deeper drop back most likely to see over the line. And because of it, is probably why they do more play action with him. But if a team takes away the run and he has to go in the shotgun, it is tipped balls and INTs.

 

[PatsFan2]

BTW @venecol, you take away Zappe's two passes from under center with play action in the Bears game, he is 12 for 20 for 87 yards and two INTs. Under center with play action, he is two for two for 98 yards and a TD. Let him play Mac Jones' offense and he wilts.

This goes to the height issue. Zappe has to take a deeper drop back most likely to see over the line. And because of it, is probably why they do more play action with him. But if a team takes away the run and he has to go in the shotgun, it is tipped balls and INTs.

Rob they can design roll outs and move the pocket to negate that Brees was shorter.

 

[venecol]

So Bedard and Kyed have conflicting information. I know Bedard studies the coaches' film. I am not sure Kyed does. So who knows who is right.

And Kyed is only talking about one game where Jones only passed six passes.

And notice when Zappe doesn't take snaps under center, he turtles (four passes tipped at the line and two INTs). Zappe needs to be under center and take a deep drop back from what I have seen. In the shotgun, he loses the ability to drop back deep since he is flat footed. His two best passes were play action (the Meyers TD and the Parker sideline pass).

Can we both agree that there is an issue with Zappe playing out of the shotgun?

No I can't agree. All Zappe did in college was play out of shotgun. 100% of the time. He excels at it. Look at the youtube videos (I posted them) of every Zappe pass vs DET & CLE. He played mainly out of shotgun. Very little PA UC. These guys are using % which can be deceiving. Zappe had few drop backs in GB, a bit more in DET & they cut him loose in CLE.

I agree w/ you that Mac only had 6 PA vs CHI, so his PA was 33% (2 out of 6). See how that works?

The other thing that's missed on the different play calls. Are these guys saying that Patricia should call the same play over and over again for both QBs? Yea, that'll fool the defense. Lol

 

[venecol]

Kind of funny to see that this obviously wrong talking point is still kicking around more than a decade later. The format has changed, but it’s still here. The basic notion that people are more fans of being right than watching the team they like win. That doesn’t hold water, good sir. A reply to you says that the “Brady crowd,” which should actually cover every Patriots fan, is pro-Zappe/anti-Mac. For one, that is obviously not true. For another, being pro-Zappe = wanting to see BB have success with another QB, since Zappe is under contract with the Patriots for at least the next four years.

I’m a Mac guy. Zappe has a lot of his own issues, which were on display Monday night. That doesn’t mean that Mac isn’t without his own problems. Those should be talked about without having to run into the usual dogshit and lazy accusations of being a fan of [insert team here], being a “Brady stan,” or “hating BB.” He’s been predetermining where he’s going to go with the ball before the snap, doesn’t feel pressure, takes too long to go through his reads at times, stares down his primary receiver, and has thrown the ball off his back foot all season. Those are all facts which anyone who wants to go with Mac over Zappe should be able to admit.

It's a lazy take by Toolscribe, or he's trying to mark posters with scarlet letters to get them banned. That's his MO. Whatever.

BTW, didn't realize there were 88 regulars on the Brady forum (more like 8). Lol

 

[Rob0729]

No I can't agree. All Zappe did in college was play out of shotgun. 100% of the time. He excels at it. Look at the youtube videos (I posted them) of every Zappe pass vs DET & CLE. He played mainly out of shotgun. Very little PA UC. These guys are using % which can be deceiving. Zappe had few drop backs in GB, a bit more in DET & they cut him loose in CLE.

I agree w/ you that Mac only had 6 PA vs CHI, so his PA was 33% (2 out of 6). See how that works?

The other thing that's missed on the different play calls. Are these guys saying that Patricia should call the same play over and over again for both QBs? Yea, that'll fool the defense. Lol

Zappe played in Division I subdivision. He wasn't playing against true Division I talent. On Monday night he wilted against better and taller athletes in the shotgun. He was awful in the shotgun.

And I love how you are using six passes by Jones and a game where Zappe did an unusually low amount of play actions for him (he is averaging over 30% play action passes this season and Monday night only 9% of his passes were play action) as proof of anything. Why not show stats from the entire season?

 

[Ross12]

I went back and watched Mac’s snaps from Monday and didn’t feel that bad about them. The OL was really letting him down, especially Trent Brown’s penalties. I felt like he was being skittish during the game, but watching it back, there were actually a couple of plays where he had guys right up in his face and he stood in there and made a throw. The one deep pass to Thornton was just off his fingertips. He had some drops by his guys that didn’t do him any favors.

Considering it was his first game back knocking the rust off… I can understand some of it. Chicago’s defense is pretty decent. Hopefully with more reps this week and being even healthier he can round out into better form.

 

[venecol]

BTW @venecol, you take away Zappe's two passes from under center with play action in the Bears game, he is 12 for 20 for 87 yards and two INTs. Under center with play action, he is two for two for 98 yards and a TD. Let him play Mac Jones' offense and he wilts.

This goes to the height issue. Zappe has to take a deeper drop back most likely to see over the line. And because of it, is probably why they do more play action with him. But if a team takes away the run and he has to go in the shotgun, it is tipped balls and INTs.

Again, just watch the videos of all his passes vs DET & CLE and tell me how many times he was UC. He was successful in those games mainly out of shotgun.

 

[Rob0729]

Again, just watch the videos of all his passes vs DET & CLE and tell me how many times he was UC. He was successful in those games mainly out of shotgun.

He does play action over 30% of passing plays. That doesn't include passes when he is under center and he doesn't do play action before before he passes. He is under center a lot. Far more than you give him credit for.

And the Patriots ran all over Detroit. Zappe was just asked to not make mistakes in that game. He passed 21 times vs 35 runs. The game plan was to run all over the Lions and pick and choose the spots for Zappe to throw with safe passes.

Again, post the numbers the entire season. Not just one game where Jones passed six times and Zappe had an unusually high percentage of passes in shotgun.

 

[Tunescribe]

Kind of funny to see that this obviously wrong talking point is still kicking around more than a decade later. The format has changed, but it’s still here. The basic notion that people are more fans of being right than watching the team they like win. That doesn’t hold water, good sir. A reply to you says that the “Brady crowd,” which should actually cover every Patriots fan, is pro-Zappe/anti-Mac. For one, that is obviously not true. For another, being pro-Zappe = wanting to see BB have success with another QB, since Zappe is under contract with the Patriots for at least the next four years.

I’m a Mac guy. Zappe has a lot of his own issues, which were on display Monday night. That doesn’t mean that Mac isn’t without his own problems. Those should be talked about without having to run into the usual dogshit and lazy accusations of being a fan of [insert team here], being a “Brady stan,” or “hating BB.” He’s been predetermining where he’s going to go with the ball before the snap, doesn’t feel pressure, takes too long to go through his reads at times, stares down his primary receiver, and has thrown the ball off his back foot all season. Those are all facts which anyone who wants to go with Mac over Zappe should be able to admit.

It's not a talking point, Kontra, just an observation that this alleged "quarterback controversy" has fallen at least partially along lines of certain influence. Which includes representatives of the Tampa Bay ghetto who are conspicuously anti-Mac Jones vs. pro-Patriots playing whoever BB believes gives New England its best chance to win. I'm not the only person who has observed this. They know Zappe is not a franchise quarterback and that Mac's failure = BB's failure = back to the drawing board for finding Brady's ultimate heir, which might not happen during whatever time BB has left. This is apart from those who simply feel Zappe > Mac.

 

[PatsFan2]

I went back and watched Mac’s snaps from Monday and didn’t feel that bad about them. The OL was really letting him down, especially Trent Brown’s penalties. I felt like he was being skittish during the game, but watching it back, there were actually a couple of plays where he had guys right up in his face and he stood in there and made a throw. The one deep pass to Thornton was just off his fingertips. He had some drops by his guys that didn’t do him any favors.

Considering it was his first game back knocking the rust off… I can understand some of it. Chicago’s defense is pretty decent. Hopefully with more reps this week and being even healthier he can round out into better form.

I remember the stone hands Harris drop kinda took the air out.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Jones completed over 77% of his passes last year when he was in play action and you think Jones doesn't want to run play action? Do you think he likes a challenge and he thinks it is too easy throwing out of play action?

Mac Jones hasn't thrown out of play action enough to know if he is not good at it in any other game. About 90% of his passes this year were not out of play action. Ten percent is not a huge sample size to know if he is good at play action this year.

Again, Bedard explained why they have executed well with Zappe and not Jones. Look at the Meyers TD (which I think is the play Bedard is talking about in the video clip where Meyers sold the play action too). That whole play was successful was because the LB covering Meyers totally bit on the play action and went to get the RB rather than covering Meyers leaving Meyers wide open down the field.

And it isn't the same plays. Against Chicago, Jones ran two play actions. One was out of shot gun which I don't think we have ever seen Zappe run a play action out of shotgun. And a play action out of shot gun absolutely needs other players to sell the play action because the fake hand off is far quicker than the fake hand off when the QB is under center.

And again, plenty of people who know more about football than any of us do are tell multiple reporters that the play calling isn't the same for the two QBs. You have Bedard saying this. You have Phil Perry saying this. I can't remember who else but I remember at least one other reporter saying this. It is real.

Forget last year. 2021 is gone.

I think Jones is so f-ed up right now he doesn't have confidence in anything - especially running PA and it's obvious the coaches don't either.

 

[Rob0729]

Forget last year. 2021 is gone.

I think Jones is so f-ed up right now he doesn't have confidence in anything - especially running PA and it's obvious the coaches don't either.

Ok, as long as we establish this is just your wild speculation and not based on facts, we can move on.