Report: Brady tried to push Belichick out for Bill O'Brien

[NFL Mystique]

I think that is something a lot of people (outside this forum) fail to realize. Aaron Hernandez was a phenomenally talented TE. Had he not been a murderer, he could have been a part of arguably the best 1-2 TE tandem in NFL history.

I think Hernandez had HOF potential. That may not be a stretch. Best 1-2 TE tandem in NFL history for sure.

 

[NFL Mystique]

I promise you though that if you watched the 2018 game, you'd see the Rams get punched in the face. Like this:

Oh I agree.

I'm just saying if a stat person didn't watch the game they'd draw those conclusions.

What's crazy is the Patriots scored to make it 10-3 with 7 minutes left. And it was game over. Goff was truly miserable without Daddy in his ear consistently.

Btw, I look back on that SB and realize McVay got outcoached. But he was better for it. It didn't ruin him or the team. What I truly give McVay credit for is making Goff look decent for a few years. OT sorry.

 

[Huckleberry1]

That's not true.
The vast majority of folks on this site are Pats fans and they shouldn't have been relegated to a sub-forum to discuss the greatest QB who ever played. I've been here for 10 years and this is the first time that Pats fans complained about other Pats fans and had one of our own player's threads moved.

We never had THAT before, now we do.

Brady is the GOAT, and I still root for him, but he’s not in the Patriots any more, so it’s not threads about “ one of our own players.” That said the people doing the posting were using Brady as a pretext to sh.t perpetually on Belichick and the current team’s, as well as constantly calling for Belichick to be fired. Ian was good enough to provide you guys with a forum to discuss that, but instead you insist on bringing it back into the Patriots forum, where it no longer belongs.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Brady didn't give him anything. It was a collaborative effort between coach and QB. To say otherwise means you love Tommy more than you do NEP. Bill has to rebuild here in NE. He's got aging veterans that need to be replaced with younger players. That's going to take some time.

Just about every QB who wins a super bowl engineers "game winning drives"....that's what a QB is supposed to do. As far as the losses are concerned, you might want to watch the video of those games again:

SB 42 - Giants D gassed in the 4th quarter allowing Tommy to actually move the ball. In fact, Tommy had 27 seconds left and 3 TOs to get the ball only 40 yards or so for the game tying field goal. Instead, Tommy was taking deep shots to Moss???!!!!

SB 46 - Tommy's offense didn't score a single point after the opening drive of the 3rd quarter.

SB 52 - NE never led in the game

SB 52? When the Pats put up 613 yards of offense and Tom set a SB record of 500 yards passing? You're saying he didn't do enough?

In four SB's, Montana put up these numbers:

157
331
357
297

TB12 in seven:
145
354
236
276
328 (against the LOB)
466
505
262
201

And yeah, sometimes Tom had a good defense that made them a great team. So did Montana. The 80's Niners had these future Hall of Famers on defense: Ronnie Lott, Charles Haley, Fred Dean.

Montana might also have benefited from playing with the greatest receiver in the history of the NFL.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

SB 52? When the Pats put up 613 yards of offense and Tom set a SB record of 500 yards passing? You're saying he didn't do enough?

In four SB's, Montana put up these numbers:

157
331
357
297

TB12 in seven:
145
354
236
276
328 (against the LOB)
466
505
262
201

And yeah, sometimes Tom had a good defense that made them a great team. So did Montana. The 80's Niners had these future Hall of Famers on defense: Ronnie Lott, Charles Haley, Fred Dean.

Montana might also have benefited from playing with the greatest receiver in the history of the NFL.

No, the SB 52 loss is mainly on the Pats defense. Although people blame the Pats D, they forget that the Eagles were also a damn good offense (ranked 3rd in points scored). A shootout between two good offenses was bound to occur in that game.

I don't like comparing stats across eras. There is a 30 year gap between SB 23 in 1988 and SB 52 in 2017 (which you bolded in your list). The game changed a great deal between those years, so you really can't compare the two performances in terms of yards, TDs, etc.

Brady played with the greatest TE ever. Both players were blessed with talent around them.

 

[sb1]

Although people blame the Pats D, they forget that the Eagles were also a damn good offense (ranked 3rd in points scored). .

Before Wentz injury: 31 points a game.
After (not including the SB): 21 points a game.

With Wentz they were very good. Not nearly as much with Foles.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I looked it up. Jacksonville beating Denver was one of the biggest NFL playoff upsets. Ever. Crazy.

It was a wild upset. I was a 14 year old kid waiting for the Broncos to get it together, but it never happened. Now the Pats had homefield in the AFCCG avoiding a team that would've embarrassed them again. Denver lost to Jacksonville because the Jags weren't taken seriously, their O-line bullied the Broncos D-line with a bruising RB and the Broncos didn't have an outside threat.

There were a lot of feel good or "Cinderella" teams in 1996. The rise of the dominating Packers were media darlings and one of the teams rooted for to get to the Super Bowl. Broncos were the other team as they wanted Elway to finally get back and win a Super Bowl. Panthers and Jags being in just their second season going to the playoffs were considered the "Cinderella" teams. Pats were up there too. This was one of my favorite seasons growing up.

Does Denver beat GB in SB 31 in your opinion?

This was the matchup most people wanted. They lose to Green Bay in the Super Bowl. GB was really freaking good in 1996. Pats put up a good fight. Maybe if Parcells focused more on the game and not his next job, not leaving their RT on an island with HOF legend Reggie White, the kickoff return TD right after cutting the Packers lead to 27-21, it may have been a closer game or even possible upset.

Obviously they beat GB in 97. But different players etc.

Denver and KC were the best teams in the AFC in 1997, but KC should've been in the Super Bowl that year. Even with the additions of Neil Smith at DE and the emergence of Rod Smith, they still had no business beating GB in 1997. This turned out to be the birth of Favre's choke jobs which has been passed to Aaron Rodgers. GB's D didn't do any favors not being able to get stops. GB's decline started in 1998's loss to the 49ers.

 

[Steve102]

I looked it up. Jacksonville beating Denver was one of the biggest NFL playoff upsets. Ever. Crazy.

 

[NFL Mystique]

Yep definitely up there.

I wonder if we will see a true SB "Upset" in the near future?

I say that because there is so much parity. And it's not as if there is one dominant team that is just leaps and bounds better than everyone else.

I think free agency, dieting, exercise, advanced scouting, and more has changed things.

It's also scary how similar the 01 Patriots and 07 Giants were in this sense: Both lost close games as large underdogs in the regular season to their eventual SB opponents. But both came away feeling like they could beat the superior team if they met up again.

Maybe neither upset happens if those games are blowouts for the favorite during the season. Who knows.

 

[upstater1]

Oh I agree.

I'm just saying if a stat person didn't watch the game they'd draw those conclusions.

What's crazy is the Patriots scored to make it 10-3 with 7 minutes left. And it was game over. Goff was truly miserable without Daddy in his ear consistently.

Btw, I look back on that SB and realize McVay got outcoached. But he was better for it. It didn't ruin him or the team. What I truly give McVay credit for is making Goff look decent for a few years. OT sorry.

I thought McVay was pretty bad in this recent Super Bowl, I have to say. I know he is a wonder kid, but he's not for me. I don't think much of Stafford either. Give me Aaron Donald though.

 

[NFL Mystique]

It was a wild upset. I was a 14 year old kid waiting for the Broncos to get it together, but it never happened. Now the Pats had homefield in the AFCCG avoiding a team that would've embarrassed them again. Denver lost to Jacksonville because the Jags weren't taken seriously, their O-line bullied the Broncos D-line with a bruising RB and the Broncos didn't have an outside threat.

There were a lot of feel good or "Cinderella" teams in 1996. The rise of the dominating Packers were media darlings and one of the teams rooted for to get to the Super Bowl. Broncos were the other team as they wanted Elway to finally get back and win a Super Bowl. Panthers and Jags being in just their second season going to the playoffs were considered the "Cinderella" teams. Pats were up there too. This was one of my favorite seasons growing up.

This was the matchup most people wanted. They lose to Green Bay in the Super Bowl. GB was really freaking good in 1996. Pats put up a good fight. Maybe if Parcells focused more on the game and not his next job, not leaving their RT on an island with HOF legend Reggie White, it may have been a closer game or possible upset.

Denver and KC were the best teams in the AFC in 1997. Even with the additions of Neil Smith at DE and the emergence of Rod Smith, they still had no business beating GB in 1997. This turned out to be the birth of Favre's choke jobs which has been passed to Aaron Rodgers. GB's D didn't do any favors not being able to get stops. GB's decline started in 1998's loss to the 49ers.

I rewatched some highlights of SB 31. The Patriots very well could've won that game. They lost by 14. But if Desmond Howard doesn't return that kickoff. Who knows....

I think 95 & 96 is when there were signs the NFC dominance wasn't what it once was. Dallas did beat Pittsburgh. But they were on their last legs. O'Donnell should've been the mvp for Dallas. Then SB 31.

Four games will unfortunately stop Favre from ever being a top 5 QB: SB 32 (He wasn't good). 2004 against Philly (Throws an absolute junk of a hail Mary right to the Eagles in OT). Throwing into triple coverage and giving the Giants game (07) away. And of course that unbelievably dumb pick against NO. He could've ran for a first down.

Nothing is for certain. But if NE meets GB in SB 42, I'm 90% confident Patriots win going away. They matched up so well against GB. Giants? Not as much.

Favre and Rodgers are so similar. Both regular season warriors. Loads of MVP's. 1 SB. Turn into pumpkins once January hits.

 

[NFL Mystique]

I thought McVay was pretty bad in this recent Super Bowl, I have to say. I know he is a wonder kid, but he's not for me. I don't think much of Stafford either. Give me Aaron Donald though.

McVay was better than Taylor.

I still think he's a top 5 coach.

Reid
Belichick
Vrabel
McVay
Harbaugh

 

[TheRainMaker]

He did say "one of". Pats over Rams was one shocking upset. Coaching played a huge role as Martz admitted he was stubborn doing what he wanted to do and found cracks in Bill's D too late in the game. He said when they ran the no huddle offense, that's when the Pats D cracked. Martz wishes he would've done that from the start.

Giants over Pats in 2007 still haunts me. 2011 not so much.

 

[Steve102]

He did say "one of". Pats over Rams was one shocking upset. Coaching played a huge role as Martz admitted he was stubborn doing what he wanted to do and found cracks in Bill's D too late in the game. He said when they ran the no huddle offense, that's when the Pats D cracked. Martz wishes he would've done that from the start.

Giants over Pats in 2007 still haunts me. 2011 not so much.

Martz was an idiot that played, arrogantly, right into Bill's plans. I am with you on '07. The '11 team was lucky top have gotten by the Ravens. I think they were by far the weakest and the most flawed of all the SB teams of the Brady/Belichick Era.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Giants over Pats in 2007 still haunts me.

It still hurts Brady to this day. At the end of the Man in Arena documentary episode 4, he's like "F the Giants." And he also admitted that NYG are his least favorite team. Dude's bitter.

 

[XLIX]

I rewatched some highlights of SB 31. The Patriots very well could've won that game. They lost by 14. But if Desmond Howard doesn't return that kickoff. Who knows....

I've always lamented "if the HC didn't have both feet out the door and spend so much time in New Orleans negotiating to be HC of the NYJ, who knows...."

 

[XLIX]

Martz was an idiot that played, arrogantly, right into Bill's plans. I am with you on '07. The '11 team was lucky top have gotten by the Ravens. I think they were by far the weakest and the most flawed of all the SB teams of the Brady/Belichick Era.

I respectfully disagree. I think the 2018 Patriots were the weakest of the 9 SB teams of the Brady/Belichick era - and yes I say that knowing full well they won the SB that year.

 

[crawhammer]

I was a season ticket holder during the Carroll reign of error. You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Not sure what being a season ticket holder has to do with it? I'm one too, then and now. The majority of what I posted was factual information so maybe your beef is with NFL statisticians.

The '96 and '97 Patriots seasons weren't that different. Won the division, lost in the postseason with a flurry of mistakes from Bledsoe. The offense got a little worse while the defense got a little better.

The Patriots defenses only got consistently good around 2003. From then until 2009 they only had one season where they weren't in the top 10 mix (2005). Some of the defenses from 2010 and beyond were bad but mostly inconsistent with a few exceptions (that 2014 defense in particular was probably better than the numbers showed).

However, from 1988 to 2002, the only Patriots defense to finish in the top10 in both scoring and yards was Carroll's '99 squad. That's just a fact. It's also true that in Carroll's last season the defense ranked 8th and in Belichick's first three seasons they ranked 20th, 24th & 23rd... those are all worse than 8th, correct?

Again, Carroll will not make the Mount Rushmore of NE head coaches, but he wasn't the worst either. He didn't fair well with his drafts for sure, although he did draft Kevin Faulk. I think people forget about all of the great Patriots drafted during the Parcells years: Curtis Martin, Troy Brown, Willie McGinest, Ted Johnson, Tedy Bruschi, Lawyer Milloy & Ty Law... all but Martin were significant contributors to the Patriots Dynasty 1.0.

It's not just Brady's SB interceptions. It's his intentional grounding in SB 46, which led to 9 points by NYG, and fumbles. I think Brady was responsible for at least 10-11 turnovers in the super bowl, while Montana had none. This is probably the biggest reason for why Montana's SB rating is 30 points higher. In my view, there was no one better in the big game than JM. The Bradyites on this board don't like it because in their view "Tommy is the best at everything."

Brady has 6 INTs and 3 FL in his 10 Super Bowl appearances but as opposed to simply looking that up you lie.

Brady has 421 pass attempts in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning is second with 155. So that puts Brady 266 ahead of second. Despite that he's only t-4th for most INTs with 6. Elway has the most with 8 INTs. Brady's INT% in the SB is 1.4%, which is exceptional. Compared with HOFers Tarkenton (6.7%), Elway (5.3%), Staubach (4.1%), Kelly (4.8%), and Peyton Manning (3.2%). Right, Montana's INT% in the SB is 0.0, which is an outstanding accomplishment, but he also had 299 fewer pass attempts than Brady. I'll take the 1.4 INT% with the 3 additional rings.

 

[Steve102]

I respectfully disagree. I think the 2018 Patriots were the weakest of the 9 SB teams of the Brady/Belichick era - and yes I say that knowing full well they won the SB that year.

Nah. I'll give you they are sixth out of the six who won. They beat the Chiefs on the road in a shootout. The 2011s needed a dropped TD and shanked FG to win. They had the game lost vs Ravens.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Brady has 6 INTs and 3 FL in his 10 Super Bowl appearances but as opposed to simply looking that up you lie.

Brady has 421 pass attempts in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning is second with 155. So that puts Brady 266 ahead of second. Despite that he's only t-4th for most INTs with 6. Elway has the most with 8 INTs. Brady's INT% in the SB is 1.4%, which is exceptional. Compared with HOFers Tarkenton (6.7%), Elway (5.3%), Staubach (4.1%), Kelly (4.8%), and Peyton Manning (3.2%). Right, Montana's INT% in the SB is 0.0, which is an outstanding accomplishment, but he also had 299 fewer pass attempts than Brady. I'll take the 1.4 INT% with the 3 additional rings.

You forgot Brady's intentional grounding in the endzone in SB 46, which of course resulted in a turnover. So that's 10.

Montana's TD/INT is infinity.