The Bill Belichick the Boston Media mostly ignores..

[Pape]

Not concerned whatsoever, just enthralled with the green balls he hands out to his coaches.

why?

BB has told the story of he himself getting money handed to him when he was starting out/was over worked underpaid in places like baltimore by ted marchibroda etc... iirc it was part of the Halberstam book, but don't quote me on that one

 

[crawhammer]

Me thinks someone needs grief counselling.
Tommy's been gone for 2 years and is now retired.

It seems we've heard this discussion before a few times already in one form or another.

Like it or not Bill is still the head coach/GM and Tommy doesn't live here anymore.
I'm out.

Look if anyone is "Team Brady" then they ARE NOT grieving or pissed or whatever negative spin you want to put on it because he left New England. It worked out for Brady, he was much better off playing for Tampa Bay the last two seasons, obviously, look at what he accomplished.

I would be if I thought you were genuine in your thoughts because the amount of times you willful ignore facts is kinda appalling. Like Law himself saying i wish I had taken the deal. You are literally saying your opinion is more correct then the player himself stating I was wrong and let ego get in the way.

What facts am I ignoring regarding Law? Back in '05 he took what he thought at the time was the better deal offered to him. Years later, long after his NFL career ended, he says he has regrets about how things went down in '05 because he thinks it ultimately cost him the opportunity of retiring in a Patriots uniform. Retrospectively he thinks he should have "just taken the deal" offered to him by Belichick. My opinion is the path he chose was the correct one. I'm rendering an opinion on his choice. He played well until his career petered out as he approached his mid-30's, which is not unusual. And the fact of the matter is the patriots could have used him in '05 and '06. That they won the SB in '04 with him on IR didn't preclude his future value to the team. Also, the Patriots wanted him back but only at a certain cost so they lost the player.

When judging coaches championships are a good place to start but I look at other things as well. Variety in game plans, consistent performance of players, clock management, in game adjustments, and in BBs case as the GM team building. Bill makes the most because he is the best by a lot. Any arguement otherwise is just ignorant drivel.

Belichick has made some very costly mistakes as a coach and as a GM. I don't think he's the best "by a lot" in either category. I'll agree there's no arguing against Belichick as the most accomplished HC of all-time... where we differ is how and why he got there. We'll see how Belichick finishes out his career. If he gets to another Super Bowl (win or lose) then I'll concede he's the best to ever do it (HC & GM). If he doesn't then in my opinion he'll merely go down as the best to ever coach Tom Brady.

 

[1960Pats]

Certainly possible, I would even go so far as to say likely as at the end of the day Kraft is a business man who cares about 1 thing $$$. He also realizes the best way to make money is to have a winner. One thing I think gets overlooked is comparing BB salary to other coaches. Where he clearly is the best and deserves to be compensated as such. He is also the GM where he is probably top 5, definitely top 10, and again should be compensated as such, so when its said he makes double what other top coaches make that’s because he is doing two jobs at a very high level. It still has nothing to do with what he can pay players. If Kraft wanted to he could pay his staff 500 million dollars and not a dollar more would go to the players so arguing that BB values himself more then he values players based on money is unreasonable and total BS. The rules are not the same.

I think Bill is a great HC but not that great as a GM. Just my opinion.

Where I think the Kraft budget comes into play is with the coaches.

 

[Clonamery]

why?

BB has told the story of he himself getting money handed to him when he was starting out/was over worked underpaid in places like baltimore by ted marchibroda etc... iirc it was part of the Halberstam book, but don't quote me on that one

@venecol is merely obsessed with balls, green or otherwise. We all know he’s been sucking (and deflating) TB’s balls for years and he’s just being fair to BB. He’s a worldly pragmatist.

 

[pazrul72]

Look if anyone is "Team Brady" then they ARE NOT grieving or pissed or whatever negative spin you want to put on it because he left New England. It worked out for Brady, he was much better off playing for Tampa Bay the last two seasons, obviously, look at what he accomplished.


What facts am I ignoring regarding Law? Back in '05 he took what he thought at the time was the better deal offered to him. Years later, long after his NFL career ended, he says he has regrets about how things went down in '05 because he thinks it ultimately cost him the opportunity of retiring in a Patriots uniform. Retrospectively he thinks he should have "just taken the deal" offered to him by Belichick. My opinion is the path he chose was the correct one. I'm rendering an opinion on his choice. He played well until his career petered out as he approached his mid-30's, which is not unusual. And the fact of the matter is the patriots could have used him in '05 and '06. That they won the SB in '04 with him on IR didn't preclude his future value to the team. Also, the Patriots wanted him back but only at a certain cost so they lost the player.


Belichick has made some very costly mistakes as a coach and as a GM. I don't think he's the best "by a lot" in either category. I'll agree there's no arguing against Belichick as the most accomplished HC of all-time... where we differ is how and why he got there. We'll see how Belichick finishes out his career. If he gets to another Super Bowl (win or lose) then I'll concede he's the best to ever do it (HC & GM). If he doesn't then in my opinion he'll merely go down as the best to ever coach Tom Brady.

Just did some quick research on the job NFL people think Belichick has done as a GM over his career. Compared to most based on where he was drafting, the resources at his disposal, and expected return BB has dominated the NFL. Yes as in the first article I found the older data looks MUCH better then more recent drafts which were sub par (due to bad luck with health IMO) but that doesn‘t change if you look at the numbers overall he is still a top 10, above average drafter, and his trades work out more then average and no it’s not all about Tom Brady being the biggest outlier in all of sports. So you are entitled to your wrong opinion that is just a knee jerk reaction that focuses entirely on the misses instead of the 2 HOFers drafted in Seymour and Gronk, the many starters Hightower McCourty Eldeman Light Wilfork, plus the trades that brought Moss, Welker, and Dillion. Is BB perfect? Of course not he misses a ton just like every other single GM out there but he misses less and gets rid of his mistakes faster and there is no one I trust more to run a franchise and the data backs that up.

Older link when the data was indisputable and BB gets a lot of long term credit from this time period, more recent drafts have not been as good but you can’t take away how good he has been for how long.

NFL Drafting Efficiency, 2010-2019
This article is really long, with a ton of math, and I feel it was cooked a bit by a seahawk fan that wanted to give the 2011-2012 drafts more weight then they deserved but the conclusion is even with 3 horrible drafts NE is still a top 10 drafting team.

NFL GM Power Rankings: The Top 10

Who is the best general manager in the NFL?

www.thedraftscout.com

9. Bill Belichick, New England Patriots
Best Move: Tom Brady
Worst Move: 2nd round DBs
First Year on Job: 2000

I’ve often said that Bill Belichick the head coach saves Bill Belichick the general manager, but you don’t become the greatest coach of all-time and own six Super Bowl rings as head coach without being pretty darn good at player evaluation.

Belichick, more than any other GM in the NFL, is under the largest microscope. His misses are arguably more well-known due to his status and due to the longevity with which he’s done the job. But there have also been plenty of hits, including Tom Brady in the sixth round of the 2000 NFL draft and more recently finding players like Trey Flowers on Day 3.

And let’s remember, the job of a GM isn’t just about drafting. Belichick has owned the NFL over the last two decades when it comes to low-cost free agents who are big-time contributors, he’s taken on many reclamation projects that worked wonders (Randy Moss, Corey Dillon, etc.) and has a reputation as a person you simply do not trade with (even if Chandler Jones has hurt that perception).

Belichick the GM isn’t perfect, and his draft record is not elite, but as an overall general manager he’s still one of the
best.

www.nbcsportsedge.com/article/goal-line-stand/nfls-best-gms-2021
1. Bill Belichick, Patriots

You’re permitted one bad year, right? Yes and no. It’s no ordinary bad year when the franchise icon quarterback you let walk in free agency immediately wins another Super Bowl elsewhere. What figured to be an intricate debate — Belichick or Brady? — didn’t seem so complicated in 2020. It is, of course, but it wasn’t so much letting Brady go as the underlying factors that drove him away. A shoulder-debilitated Cam Newton throwing up prayers to Damiere Byrd and Jakobi Meyers last season laid bare just how talent-bereft Brady’s final few offenses really were. There is no band-aid fix to a situation like that, but Bill Belichick tried in free agency, going on an uncharacteristic spending spree as he added Nelson Agholor, Hunter Henry, Jonnu Smith and Kendrick Bourne, amongst others. It was an admission of fault from the Patriots’ long-time czar, but those are not as rare as you might think. Quickly admitting missteps has always been one of Belichick’s super powers. Despite his foibles as team builder — hello Patriots receiver picks — no general manager has done a better job of giving the coach the right players than Belichick. He will eventually stack together enough little fixes to correct the past half decade’s big mistakes. You could argue I'm blinded by the rings. There is still no one I would rather build a front office around.

Now in regards to Law, who was more important to give a couple extra million to in 2005, Brady needed a new contract, Seymour was due the following year, Dillion had just had a 1600 yard season and needed an extension. You can’t afford to pay them all So yes Law in 2005 and 06 makes them better but not knowing Dillion was going to fall off hard i find zero fault in giving him money over Law. Just as one scenario where Law should have taken the deal where BB could not go higher.

 

[pazrul72]

I think Bill is a great HC but not that great as a GM. Just my opinion.

Where I think the Kraft budget comes into play is with the coaches.

Based on what data that isn’t a knee jerk reaction that focuses only on misses?

 

[crawhammer]

9. Bill Belichick, New England Patriots
Best Move: Tom Brady
Worst Move: 2nd round DBs
First Year on Job: 2000

That's rich... best move Tom Brady, like Belichick had it calculated the whole time to draft the greatest player in the history of the league at 199. Belichick had no clue what Brady was, no one did, and it was pure luck for the New England franchise that they got him, meaning the GOAT. Let's not forget the team signed Bledsoe to a massive deal AFTER Brady had been on the roster. Mo Lewis had more to do with Brady's emergence than Belichick. Seriously, this is all I need to know about the greatest of Belichick... his best move was Brady.

 

[pazrul72]

That's rich... best move Tom Brady, like Belichick had it calculated the whole time to draft the greatest player in the history of the league at 199. Belichick had no clue what Brady was, no one did, and it was pure luck for the New England franchise that they got him, meaning the GOAT. Let's not forget the team signed Bledsoe to a massive deal AFTER Brady had been on the roster. Mo Lewis had more to do with Brady's emergence than Belichick. Seriously, this is all I need to know about the greatest of Belichick... his best move was Brady.

And once again you show you are just here to make people angry not actually listen or learn anything. No **** Tom Brady is the luckiest pick in NFL history and easily the best draft pick ever. In a redraft he clearly goes number one overall with a huge fight over who gets to pick first. Scott Pioli keeps a picture of the no name TE they took in round 5 before Brady as a reminder that if he was really as awesome as he thinks he is he would have drafted Brady sooner. No one is debating Brady is the best draft pick Bill ever took, but he should get credit for picking and developing him. Funny how you ignored everything else I wrote and found proving your BS stance that Belichick isn’t at least a top 10 GM wrong. Be gone troll your 5 mins in over.

 

[crawhammer]

And once again you show you are just here to make people angry not actually listen or learn anything. No **** Tom Brady is the luckiest pick in NFL history and easily the best draft pick ever. In a redraft he clearly goes number one overall with a huge fight over who gets to pick first. Scott Pioli keeps a picture of the no name TE they took in round 5 before Brady as a reminder that if he was really as awesome as he thinks he is he would have drafted Brady sooner. No one is debating Brady is the best draft pick Bill ever took, but he should get credit for picking and developing him. Funny how you ignored everything else I wrote and found proving your BS stance that Belichick isn’t at least a top 10 GM wrong. Be gone troll your 5 mins in over.

Sorry bub, trying to make people angry is not my objective. I'm giving you my honest opinion. If you're angry then that's on you.

I also don't get what you're trying to school me on. You think Belichick's "a top 10 GM at least." You support this in part with a link to an article that ranks Belichick as ninth and states his best pick was Tom Brady, which I think is utterly foolish. If the intent of the pick was to develop the player into your next franchise quarterback then bravo. The problem is that wasn't the intent of selecting Brady at 199. He was promptly placed as fourth on the QB depth chart and was inactive for all but two games and 3 snaps of his rookie season. The next offseason Belichick linked Bledsoe to a massive 10-year contract so obviously Belichick was intending on having Bledsoe as his long-term franchise quarterback heading into the 2001 season.

Aside from the incredible luck of drafting Brady at 199, the second most incredibly lucky occurrence happened... Mo Lewis. Without him torpedoing Bledsoe on the sideline, who knows if and when Brady may have gotten his chance to take over the team and completely flip the fortunes of the franchise and everyone associated with it. The entire dynasty was dependent upon two extremely fortunate occurrences... Brady's availability at 199 and Bledsoe getting knocked into oblivion.

The development of the player part is another subject, unrelated to the responsibilities of the GM, which is what we're talking about here. Even that said, Brady was leading game-winning drives in high stakes opportunities in season one, and the only other quarterback to ever win a Super Bowl in their first season as the starter was Brady's opponent in SB 36, Kurt Warner.

Sticking to the GM role, I'm not sure how you're putting Belichick in any best of list in consideration of his collective drafts over roughly the last decade. Since 2012 the Patriots have selected 77 players who between them have 1 pro bowl selection (Jamie Collins in '15). I'm discounting Jones as the seventh alternative replacement quarterback for the AFC this season.

Also, of those 77 drafted players, here's the list of ones seeing regular starts:

Duron Harmon (on his third team in Atlanta)
Logan Ryan (on his third team in NYG)
Jimmy Garoppolo (currently in SF)
Shaq Mason
Malcolm Brown (on his third team in Jacksonville)
Ted Karras
Elandon Roberts (currently in Miami)
Kamu Grugier-Hill (currently in Houston and he never actually made the Patriots roster)
Joe Thuney (currently in KC)
Deatrich Wise Jr. (borderline classified as a start)
Ja'Whaun Bentley
Isaiah Wynn
Damien Harris
Michael Onwenu (had started nearly every game until week 10 of this season... 1 start since)
Kyle Dugger
Mac Jones

Just look at this mess... 77 players, 16 starters (2 only marginally), only 9 starters left on the Patriots roster, nearly half of those being offensive linemen, and otherwise only a few even worth talking about (Bentley, Harris, Dugger & Jones).

Does this look like the work of a top 10 GM??

 

[Brewskies]

Your obsessed with me is appreciated.

 

[Brewskies]

You are so obsessed with me that you are double posting the same thing about me. Impressive.

Are you still wetting your bed?

 

[DaBruinz]

Sorry bub, trying to make people angry is not my objective. I'm giving you my honest opinion. If you're angry then that's on you.

I also don't get what you're trying to school me on. You think Belichick's "a top 10 GM at least." You support this in part with a link to an article that ranks Belichick as ninth and states his best pick was Tom Brady, which I think is utterly foolish. If the intent of the pick was to develop the player into your next franchise quarterback then bravo. The problem is that wasn't the intent of selecting Brady at 199. He was promptly placed as fourth on the QB depth chart and was inactive for all but two games and 3 snaps of his rookie season. The next offseason Belichick linked Bledsoe to a massive 10-year contract so obviously Belichick was intending on having Bledsoe as his long-term franchise quarterback heading into the 2001 season.

Aside from the incredible luck of drafting Brady at 199, the second most incredibly lucky occurrence happened... Mo Lewis. Without him torpedoing Bledsoe on the sideline, who knows if and when Brady may have gotten his chance to take over the team and completely flip the fortunes of the franchise and everyone associated with it. The entire dynasty was dependent upon two extremely fortunate occurrences... Brady's availability at 199 and Bledsoe getting knocked into oblivion.

The development of the player part is another subject, unrelated to the responsibilities of the GM, which is what we're talking about here. Even that said, Brady was leading game-winning drives in high stakes opportunities in season one, and the only other quarterback to ever win a Super Bowl in their first season as the starter was Brady's opponent in SB 36, Kurt Warner.

Sticking to the GM role, I'm not sure how you're putting Belichick in any best of list in consideration of his collective drafts over roughly the last decade. Since 2012 the Patriots have selected 77 players who between them have 1 pro bowl selection (Jamie Collins in '15). I'm discounting Jones as the seventh alternative replacement quarterback for the AFC this season.

Also, of those 77 drafted players, here's the list of ones seeing regular starts:

Duron Harmon (on his third team in Atlanta)
Logan Ryan (on his third team in NYG)
Jimmy Garoppolo (currently in SF)
Shaq Mason
Malcolm Brown (on his third team in Jacksonville)
Ted Karras
Elandon Roberts (currently in Miami)
Kamu Grugier-Hill (currently in Houston and he never actually made the Patriots roster)
Joe Thuney (currently in KC)
Deatrich Wise Jr. (borderline classified as a start)
Ja'Whaun Bentley
Isaiah Wynn
Damien Harris
Michael Onwenu (had started nearly every game until week 10 of this season... 1 start since)
Kyle Dugger
Mac Jones

Just look at this mess... 77 players, 16 starters (2 only marginally), only 9 starters left on the Patriots roster, nearly half of those being offensive linemen, and otherwise only a few even worth talking about (Bentley, Harris, Dugger & Jones).

Does this look like the work of a top 10 GM??

The fact you go back 10 years and act like it's a f'in travesty that players from then still aren't in the league takes away any credibility from you. Not to mention that you can't count. From 2012-2021, the Patriots had 84 picks. Not 77.

Next, BUB, this has ZERO to do with the topic.

The "Pro Bowl" doesn't mean jack. Thuney never got elected to the Pro-Bowl despite being one of the best in the league for years.

You're ridiculous f'in knocks against players like Harmon and Logan Ryan show your bias.

You missed several players so your "LIST" is ridiculous. Not to mention that you couldn't be bothered to look at how many of the 84 were taken in the 6th and 7th rounds. Rounds where the players have a 5% chance of making it. The Pats took 31 players in the final two rounds during the time you mentioned. So, 37%.

Jake Bailey, Chandler Jones, Hightower, James White, Trey Flowers, Braxton Berrios.

It's funny how you count Jones, but you don't count Barmore (who saw 55% of the defensive snaps). OH.. That's right. You used the arbitrary call of "Games started".

You wouldn't know what a Top 10 GM looks like even if they wore NEON SIGNS tell you that they are.

 

[crawhammer]

The fact you go back 10 years and act like it's a f'in travesty that players from then still aren't in the league takes away any credibility from you. Not to mention that you can't count. From 2012-2021, the Patriots had 84 picks. Not 77.

No dummy, since 2012 as in 2013 and beyond... 77 picks like I said.

10 years, 5 years, 3 years... whatever, the drafts haven't yielded much at all.

Next, BUB, this has ZERO to do with the topic.

How are draft results not relevant to Belichick as a GM??

The "Pro Bowl" doesn't mean jack. Thuney never got elected to the Pro-Bowl despite being one of the best in the league for years.

Best in the league?? When was that?

Pro bowl is one marker. Starting in another. I'm looking at multiple variables. What's your benchmark for a successful draft pick? Your eyeballs?

You're ridiculous f'in knocks against players like Harmon and Logan Ryan show your bias.

I put them in the plus column because they're starters in the league (albeit for other teams), so what's the problem?

You missed several players so your "LIST" is ridiculous. Not to mention that you couldn't be bothered to look at how many of the 84 were taken in the 6th and 7th rounds. Rounds where the players have a 5% chance of making it. The Pats took 31 players in the final two rounds during the time you mentioned. So, 37%.

Pick any round you think is in Bill's wheelhouse and we'll look at it. I'm looking at the total accumulation of picks to eliminate cherry-picking. But even still, look at the first 2 rounds 2013-2021:

Jamie Collins (1 pro bowl)
Aaron Dobson (3 seasons, 53 rec, 4 TDs... no longer in the league)
Dominique Easley (4 seasons, 6 starts, 6.5 sacks... no longer in the league)
Jimmy Garoppolo (choke artist... for another team thankfully)
Malcolm Brown (now starting for the worst team in the league)
Jordan Richard (amazingly still in the league as a STer but probably not for much longer)
Cyrus Jones (logged 2 career starts in 3 seasons... no longer in the league)
Isaiah Wynn (starter for NE)
Sony Michel (replaced in third season... now playing elsewhere)
Duke Dawson (never played a snap for NE... no longer in the league)
N'Keal Harry (18.1 receiving yards per game so far)
Joejuan Williams (3 seasons, 1 start, 0 production)
Kyle Duggar (starter for NE)
Josh Uche (2 seasons, 1 start, 21 games, 21 tackles)
Mac Jones (7th alternate replacement pro bowler)
Christian Barmore (not starting but getting regular reps and looks promising)

I highlighted the REALLY awful picks, which is half of the 16. Garoppolo is marginally off the awful list because he starts elsewhere but the Patriots got nothing from the player on the field and practically nothing in return for him. Michel marginally is a plus pick because he was productive his rookie season but he was never special and the Patriots replaced him within three seasons. Overall...

16 players
8 no longer on the team
4 no longer in the league
3 listed as starters for NE

That's bad.

DB is an obvious particular blind spot for Belichick... Richards, Jones, Dawson & Williams are a huge collection of total garbage.

Jake Bailey, Chandler Jones, Hightower, James White, Trey Flowers, Braxton Berrios.

Jones and Hightower aren't from the timeframe I cited. Both were good picks however. Hightower especially because of his postseason contributions. Jones has played his best football with another franchise. The rest of that '12 draft was trash.

Bailey is a punter and therefore he technically doesn't start. Good punter in the 5th round... meh.

White's a 3rd down back, not a starting RB. Also never made the pro bowl. However, as a 4th rounder he has exceeded the value of most other picks over the last decade.

Flowers isn't on the team anymore and he's not ever exactly blown the league away. Mediocre 4th rounder who's of no value to the team currently.

Berrios never played a snap for NE. He's a STer and a part time receiver, for another team.

You wouldn't know what a Top 10 GM looks like even if they wore NEON SIGNS tell you that they are.

You tell me another GM in the league who has half of his 1st and 2nd round draft picks either out of the league completely or not on their current roster?