Belichick still greatest of all time coach?

[Tony2046]

@Ice_Ice_Brady is polluting the thread with pre salary cap, pre hard shell helmets, pre mouth guard and pre jock strap coaches.

BB is the greatest coach hands down.

Give me a freaking break.



Don't @ me bro.

 

[Fubby]

Greatest coach of all time but you can’t just ignore the pre and post Brady conversation. He hasn’t proven he can produce a top tier team without him. So there’s an asterisk, a small one, but an asterisk still.

 

[venecol]

I wonder if he retires in a year or two without having a good run or even making the playoffs, does that hurt his case for goat? Ironic that if he retired when brady left he would probably be considered better.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

@Ice_Ice_Brady is polluting the thread with pre salary cap, pre hard shell helmets, pre mouth guard and pre jock strap coaches.

BB is the greatest coach hands down.

Give me a freaking break.



Don't @ me bro.

Is Justin Herbert on your top 10 list of all-time QBs now?

 

[JSO123]

I’m not a fan of the Patriots, but as a Bills fan, I feel am qualified to answer this question. I can’t imagine there will ever be another coach who will have the mind of Bill Belichick. He’s the GOAT.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The title is worded on the base assumption BB is the greatest. I think he is. The rings speak for themselves. Unprecedented when factoring how brutal the cap is annually. But I'm not going to argue who should be named the greatest if one disagrees with the supposition.

I think the question is really whether BB looks worse now because of what Brady just did. I don't know. Does Popovich look worse having not won since Duncan? Does Phil Jackson look worse despite the Knicks happening? I don't think so.

Maybe I'm being optimistic but I think this could be more similar to a Red Auerbach with Russell situation but then where Red still kept it going very successfully for a bit after Russell left/retired.

The whole thing is just uncharted territory because it's not like Brady retired or played elsewhere into obscurity, he went to another team and then won the f'ing Superbowl.

So then maybe another better comp is like how Pat Riley's legacy was secure and wasn't diminished by LeBron leaving Miami but LeBron absolutely helped his own legacy by winning more elsewhere.


.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

He's still the GOAT, even without being dominant this year. Rebuilding is tough, and not just without an established franchise QB. Bill's defense doesn't seem to work without a superstar corner wearing #24 either.... Law, Revis, Gilmore acount for all 6 SBs? Amazing how much different his defenses look when a #24 is out there.

Which makes it all the more baffling why you spend $150-200M in the offseason only to try to save 5-10M on your most important defensive anchor. Um what ? This is a concerning sign that Bill is maybe delegating to some dummies.

.

 

[Tony2046]

Is Justin Herbert on your top 10 list of all-time QBs now?

You're goalposting.

 

[Rob0729]

@Ice_Ice_Brady is polluting the thread with pre salary cap, pre hard shell helmets, pre mouth guard and pre jock strap coaches.

BB is the greatest coach hands down.

Give me a freaking break.



Don't @ me bro.

Unfortunately, he is part of a group of Patriots "fans" who are really Brady fans that want to rewrite history to pretend that Belichick is overrated and the second Brady took the field in September of 2001 he was elite and Brady carried Belichick for 20 years.

I don't get the logic myself. By giving Belichick the credit he vastly deserves doesn't diminish Brady's legacy.

 

[sb1]

Unfortunately, he is part of a group of Patriots "fans" who are really Brady fans that want to rewrite history to pretend that Belichick is overrated and the second Brady took the field in September of 2001 he was elite and Brady carried Belichick for 20 years.

I don't get the logic myself. By giving Belichick the credit he vastly deserves doesn't diminish Brady's legacy.

I think taking a hard and thoughtful look at Bill's career and legacy is a fair topic. He is a lot closer to the end of his career as coach than the beginning so it was going to come up eventually.

I think every intelligent football fan would say Bill is at least an all time great coach. But if it wasn't for rings, what benchmark are we using to say Bill is the GOAT? I'd like to think he is. It's easy to say Bill is GOAT because of his wins and rings but if you don't use that, how do you objectively compare Bill with someone like Landry or Shula or Noll or Lombardi? That's a tough question. We talk about this for QB's a lot - I think we can do the same for coaches. Are we saying Bill is GOAT only because of rings? As is the case with QBs, rings are a team stat first. How many rings would BB have with an average QB instead of Brady? Is Marv Levy a worse coach than Barry Switzer because Levy hasn't won a ring?

Totally agree Bill innovated and changed the game. I think Walsh did too. So did Landry. Heck so did Dungy and he's not an all time great coach.

Can Bill win with any QB? So far what we're seeing with Bill isn't in his favor. Gibbs could. Noll could not though. Neither could Walsh. Shanahan was nothing special without Elway.

The GOAT coach ought to elevate his players to greatness and being HOF worthy. Brady is a no brainer but how does Bill compare here with other coaching greats? I don't know.

What about Bill elevating his coaching peers? It's been a mixed bag so far. Flores looks like he's a good coach. McDaniels wasn't. Weis was a failure. Crennel was all right. Compare that to Andy Reid who has had a lot of success happen in his coaching tree. On the other hand, you could say Parcells hasn't won a thing without Bill as his DC.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Belichick is the GOAT coach. His legacy has taken a bit of a hit though since Brady left.

 

[Give Kraft A Hand]

Yes by a landslide.

 

[Rob0729]

I think taking a hard and throughful look at Bill's career and legacy is a fair topic. He is a lot closer to the end of his career as coach than the beginning so it was going to come up eventually.

If it wasn't for rings, what benchmark are we using to say Bill is the GOAT? How do you objectively compare Bill with someone like Landry or Shula or Noll or Lombardi? We talk about this for QB's a lot - I think we can do the same for coaches. Are we saying Bill is GOAT only because of rings? As is the case with QBs, rings are a team stat first. How many rings would BB have with an average QB instead of Brady? Is Marv Levy a worse coach than Barry Switzer because Levy hasn't won a ring?

There are thousands of things (big and small) that makes Belichick the greatest of all time beyond the rings. Here are some of the things I can think of off the top of my head:

• He was the only one in 2001 who could figure out how to shutdown the Greatest Show on Turf. His gameplan is in HOF because of it.
• When the Patriots lost both starting CBs in 2004, Belichick and RAC figured out a way to make a stream of journeymen CBs and Troy Brown cover up the deficiencies at CB.
• In 2003, when the Patriots had red zone scoring issues on offense, he decided to use Tedy Bruschi as a TE and H-Back in the red zone where all he caught was TDs.
• In that playoff game in Denver where the Pats were down by one score and back up into their own end zone late in the game, he wisely took a safety rather than punting the ball putting Denver in scoring range.
• The entire Dynasty era, Belichick was famous for devising game plans that took away what the opposing team did best and forced them to try to beat the Pats in another way than what they are best at.
• He consistently over the years took other teams' cast off players and over the hill players who people thought were done and made them productive players on this team.
• The Patriots always seem to be the most knowledgable team about the rules and how to manipulate them to their favor and all the little details in the games. I mean the NFL has had to rewrite rules because Belichick found loopholes to use in the Patriots' advantage. Most recently in 2019, Belichick figured out he could run down the clock by taking delay of game penalties to get more than the 40 seconds to run down by taking a delay of game penalty. The league had to close that loophole. And it backfired on Belichick though because Vrabel used it against the Pats in the playoffs.
• He was the only one who knew how to shut down Manning and his receivers in the early 2000s. The league had to rewrite the rules of pass interference because of it because of it.

If you took enough time, you can think of hundreds or thousands of these things. I can guarantee you that most head coaches could never do half of the things I listed.

 

[sb1]

There are thousands of things (big and small) that makes Belichick the greatest of all time beyond the rings. Here are some of the things I can think of off the top of my head:

• He was the only one in 2001 who could figure out how to shutdown the Greatest Show on Turf. His gameplan is in HOF because of it.
• When the Patriots lost both starting CBs in 2004, Belichick and RAC figured out a way to make a stream of journeymen CBs and Troy Brown cover up the deficiencies at CB.
• In 2003, when the Patriots had red zone scoring issues on offense, he decided to use Tedy Bruschi as a TE and H-Back in the red zone where all he caught was TDs.
• In that playoff game in Denver where the Pats were down by one score and back up into their own end zone late in the game, he wisely took a safety rather than punting the ball putting Denver in scoring range.
• The entire Dynasty era, Belichick was famous for devising game plans that took away what the opposing team did best and forced them to try to beat the Pats in another way than what they are best at.
• He consistently over the years took other teams' cast off players and over the hill players who people thought were done and made them productive players on this team.
• The Patriots always seem to be the most knowledgable team about the rules and how to manipulate them to their favor and all the little details in the games. I mean the NFL has had to rewrite rules because Belichick found loopholes to use in the Patriots' advantage. Most recently in 2019, Belichick figured out he could run down the clock by taking delay of game penalties to get more than the 40 seconds to run down by taking a delay of game penalty. The league had to close that loophole. And it backfired on Belichick though because Vrabel used it against the Pats in the playoffs.
• He was the only one who knew how to shut down Manning and his receivers in the early 2000s. The league had to rewrite the rules of pass interference because of it because of it.

If you took enough time, you can think of hundreds or thousands of these things. I can guarantee you that most head coaches could never do half of the things I listed.

A lot of these look tactical to me. To be fair this isn't something exclusive to BB. Rex Ryan stopped Brady and the best offense in the league in the playoffs with a defensive "innovation" that was borrowed by other teams. Yes Bill shut down Manning but how do we know defensive minded coaches like Billick or Coughlin wouldn't have done the same thing eventually?

The first one I think you're referring to Bill's gameplan against Kelly's K-gun offense? He wasn't coach then.

All these are sign of a good coach but is that something that makes a coach GOAT? Not sure. I do think Bill's in depth knowledge about the fine details of the game in the modern era is one thing in his favor and makes him stand out compared to his peers.

 

[Rob0729]

I think taking a hard and thoughtful look at Bill's career and legacy is a fair topic. He is a lot closer to the end of his career as coach than the beginning so it was going to come up eventually.

I think every intelligent football fan would say Bill is at least an all time great coach. But if it wasn't for rings, what benchmark are we using to say Bill is the GOAT? I'd like to think he is. It's easy to say Bill is GOAT because of his wins and rings but if you don't use that, how do you objectively compare Bill with someone like Landry or Shula or Noll or Lombardi? That's a tough question. We talk about this for QB's a lot - I think we can do the same for coaches. Are we saying Bill is GOAT only because of rings? As is the case with QBs, rings are a team stat first. How many rings would BB have with an average QB instead of Brady? Is Marv Levy a worse coach than Barry Switzer because Levy hasn't won a ring?

Totally agree Bill innovated and changed the game. I think Walsh did too. So did Landry. Heck so did Dungy and he's not an all time great coach.

Can Bill win with any QB? So far what we're seeing with Bill isn't in his favor. Gibbs could. Noll could not though. Neither could Walsh. Shanahan was nothing special without Elway.

The GOAT coach ought to elevate his players to greatness and being HOF worthy. Brady is a no brainer but how does Bill compare here with other coaching greats? I don't know.

What about Bill elevating his coaching peers? It's been a mixed bag so far. Flores looks like he's a good coach. McDaniels wasn't. Weis was a failure. Crennel was all right. Compare that to Andy Reid who has had a lot of success happen in his coaching tree. On the other hand, you could say Parcells hasn't won a thing without Bill as his DC.

I think the fact that the Patriots have so few HOFers with 20 years of success is a testament to how great of a head coach Belichick is. Belichick was able to coach up average and marginal talent to win.

In 2004, he had a revolving door of journeyman CBs including a WR (Troy Brown) in the starting line up after Law and Poole were lost for the season. And the Patriots still had a top defense in the league. That is great coaching.

Are you saying Chuck Knoll is a better head coach because the 70s Steelers have close to a dozen players in the HOF? Even though after all those players retired, Knoll was an average head coach for like another ten years?

 

[Rob0729]

A lot of these look tactical to me. To be fair this isn't something exclusive to BB. Rex Ryan stopped Brady and the best offense in the league in the playoffs with a defensive "innovation" that was borrowed by other teams. Yes Bill shut down Manning but how do we know defensive minded coaches like Billick or Coughlin wouldn't have done the same thing eventually?

The first one I think you're referring to Bill's gameplan against Kelly's K-gun offense? He wasn't coach then.

All these are sign of a good coach but is that something that makes a coach GOAT? Not sure. I do think Bill's in depth knowledge about the fine details of the game in the modern era is one thing in his favor and makes him stand out compared to his peers.

I am pretty sure both of the game plans are in the HOF. But if I am wrong I am wrong. Either way, it was a brilliant game plan that 14 other teams that played the Rams that year.

And tactical strategy is huge part of head coaching. You take that away and what do you have left? Cheering on the sidelines?

What do you think makes a great head coach? Putting players in the HOF isn't great head coaching. You cannot coach talent. Either you are a HOF talent or you aren't. No coach is going to make a good player into a HOF player.

I listed a bunch of things that may not be all that big on their own. But when you start to string all of them together with hundreds of other things, it is a collage of all the great things that Belichick has done to make him the GOAT.

 

[sb1]

I am pretty sure both of them are in the HOF. But if I am wrong I am wrong. Either way, it was a brilliant game plan that 14 other teams that played the Rams that year.

And tactical strategy is huge part of head coaching. You take that away and what do you have left? Cheering on the sidelines?

What do you think makes a great head coach? Putting players in the HOF isn't great head coaching. You cannot coach talent. Either you are a HOF talent or you aren't. No coach is going to make a good player into a HOF player.

I listed a bunch of things that may not be all that big on their own. But when you start to string all of them together with hundreds of other things, it is a collage of all the great things that Belichick has done to make him the GOAT.

I think it is great coaching. Great coaches maximize what they have in their talent and elevate their players to greatness. Not saying every player but a lot of them. They become better on the field than they otherwise would be. If we're talking GOAT then that bar has to be really high. As much as I'm not a fan I have to admit Shula elevated lots of his players to the HOF

I'd say tactical strategy is something every coach does, it's their job. I could dig around and find a lot of examples of successful tactical game strategy for any decent coach.

 

[Rob0729]

I think it is great coaching. Great coaches maximize what they have in their talent and elevate their players to greatness. Not saying every player but a lot of them. They become better on the field than they otherwise would be. If we're talking GOAT then that bar has to be really high. As much as I'm not a fan I have to admit Shula elevated lots of his players to the HOF

I'd say tactical strategy is something every coach does, it's their job. I could dig around and find a lot of examples of successful tactical game strategy for any decent coach.

So if Belichick is the best tactician head coach in history, it doesn't count towards him being the GOAT because it is job. Yes, it is his job, but he does it far, far better than everyone else. That is what makes him the GOAT.

And no, Shula didn't elevate players to the HOF. Like Belichick he maximized his players' abilities and talents by putting them in a position to succeed, but his players got into the HOF because they had HOF talent. All a coach can do is put players in position to maximize their talent. The player has to have the talent to be a HOFer to become a HOFer.

But look at some of the players Belichick coached up. Edelman was a seventh round QB who he coached up to be at least a Patriots HOF WR. Brady was a sixth round pick with a doughy body who became the greatest QB of all time. Welker was a good, not great receiver down in Miami and Belichick put him in a position to become probably the greatest pure slot receiver in NFL history. Vrabel was Steeler cast off who turned into a great LB. He also took other cast offs like Roman Phifer and Bobby Hamilton and they became solid starters for years. And let's not forget all the JAGs and trash he threw into the starting line up and put them in positions to be at least serviceable starters over time.

Belichick didn't have a lot of HOF talent to work with, but I would say he maximized the talent he had as good as or better than Shula and every other coach.

Personally, I will take the coach who can win without a lot of talent than the coach who wins with a lot of HOF talent. It's funny. For years, people touted the genius of Belichick because he was able to win without a lot of HOF talent. Now you are saying it is a negative.

 

[goheels22002]

Still the greatest? Never was.

The undisputed greatest all time coach is Guy Chamberlin. Chamberlin won four NFL championships as a player-coach. He won 78.4% of the games he coached in the NFL, the highest winning percentage all-time for a coach with 50 or more games.

I'd like to see Bill Belichick strap on the pads and take a few snaps. Until then, he's just a poorly dressed guy with a headset getting all his ideas from some guys in the booth.

Coaches, Records, and Coaching Totals | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Coaches, Records, and Coaching Totals

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[venecol]

A lot of these look tactical to me. To be fair this isn't something exclusive to BB. Rex Ryan stopped Brady and the best offense in the league in the playoffs with a defensive "innovation" that was borrowed by other teams. Yes Bill shut down Manning but how do we know defensive minded coaches like Billick or Coughlin wouldn't have done the same thing eventually?

The first one I think you're referring to Bill's gameplan against Kelly's K-gun offense? He wasn't coach then.

All these are sign of a good coach but is that something that makes a coach GOAT? Not sure. I do think Bill's in depth knowledge about the fine details of the game in the modern era is one thing in his favor and makes him stand out compared to his peers.

This is simple, what makes Bill the GOAT is the winning.

The only constant during the 20 years of winning is Tom Brady.

Bill doesn't have all those wins without Tom Brady.

So yes, Bill is the GOAT but because he had Brady for 20 years. Without Brady he more than likely isn't any better than the other classic great coaches, maybe even worse. Who knows.