OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Doctor DDS]

1. Ozzie Newsome
2. Bobby Beathard
3. George Halas
4. Tex Schramm
5. Bill Walsh
6. Ernie Accorsi
7. George Young
8. **** Haley
9. Ron Wolf

Seriously? Better than BB as a GM?

Ozzie Newsome was the GM for the Ravens from 2002 - 2018. In that time period they won their division 5 times and made the playoffs 9 times. They won the Super Bowl once. Twice lost in the conference championship game. Signed Joe Flacco to an enormous contract.

George Young - GM for 19 years and made the playoffs 8 times. 6 seasons with double digit losses. Made 2 conference championship games and won 2 Super Bowls.

Ernie Accorsi - 18 years as a GM. Under .500 career record, Never won a Super Bowl. He did have 5 career playoff wins. Very interested in hearing the reasons behind his brilliance.

Bobby Beathard - 22 years as a GM. Career record of 180-164. Made the playoffs 8 times. Won 2 Super Bowls and lost 2.

Ron Wolf - successful GM for 9 years going 92-52. Won one Super Bowl and lost one.

 

[farn]

@KontradictioN
George Halas ?

I mean, I don’t know how many of the people on your list would stand much of a chance vs BB in the modern era w salary caps & FA.

 

[farn]

I think people are in LOVE with WRs. I mean, what is it about WRs that makes patsfans’ knees weak ? For the most part, they are overpaid divas who do a lot of talking. Not much winning. Since 2000, I’d say the team with the best receivers has rarely been SB champ.

BB’s usage of cap space on other positions is one of the reasons NE’s been a winner. I will acknowledge that his drafting of WRs has been poor. But the obsession on here for WRs seems unwarranted. They rarely lead to championships. I’d go as far as « there have been more diva WRs who’ve ruined teams than WRs who’ve won the SB for their team ».

 

[PatsWSB47]

Because the photo describes him quite well

We can see. It was unnecessary.

 

[Tony2046]

BB is the GOAT HC, but not the GOAT GM. He benefits from four things as a GM - catching lightning in a bottle on a QB that he passed up for 6 rounds, said QB taking less money over the years to help sign key free agents, the ability as the GOAT HC to coach up lesser players, and recency bias.

I’d rank the following GMs, in no particular order, over BB...

1. Ozzie Newsome
2. Bobby Beathard
3. George Halas
4. Tex Schramm
5. Bill Walsh
6. Ernie Accorsi
7. George Young
8. **** Haley
9. Ron Wolf

BB would come in somewhere after these. I’m sure there’s probably a few that I’ve forgotten. With the exception of Walsh, all did it without the GOAT at the most important position on the field. Bill also had the advantage of walking into a situation in which some key stalwarts in the first dynasty were already on the team. McGinest, Bruschi, Vinatieri, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Milloy, and Kevin Faulk. Then they won 3 in 4 years. Following that, even though they had the GOAT in his absolute prime, the team proceeded to go on a 10-year drought between Lombardis thanks in large part to BB’s personnel failures as a GM. The drafts from 2005-2009 were not good. They left the team bereft of young talent while the dynasty defense became long in the tooth. They had to rely on FA signings and trades, which pushed them up against the cap. That shouldn’t happen to a GM that’s considered the GOAT.

Exit Scott Pioli and enter Floyd Reese. Chung, Vollmer, Edelman, McCourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Solder, Ridley, Vereen, Jones, Hightower, Collins, Ryan, and Harmon all drafted during that period. These players would form the foundation of the second dynasty. Then Reese departed and we went through a similar dry spell from 2014 to roughly 2018 (although this draft is not looking great as time goes on because neither Wynn nor Sony can stay on the god damn field). This left us in a similar position as the decade from 2004-2014 where we went on a dry spell in championships. Players like Easley, Brown, Richards, Cyrus the Virus, and Rivers saw one flop after another with the team’s top overall picks among other missed throughout each draft. This created holes which then needed to be filled by more expensive FA signings and trades, pushing the team up against the cap this offseason. These dry periods should not happen if one is to be considered the GOAT GM. He also ****yfooted around Brady’s contract, essentially granting him one year deals after another while handing him what has been one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL over the last 3 seasons. Brady then left for Tampa and has enjoyed a great season there. He’s still not done. Again, this shouldn’t happen if you’re the GOAT GM. His personnel decisions concluded with letting the GOAT walk and replacing him with the corpse of Cam Newton to go along with what is basically a JV roster. His greatness as a coach got this team to seven wins they had no business getting to. This was a 3-13, 4-12 roster.

He’s not the GOAT GM. He’s in the top 10-15 simply because he was lucky enough to get Brady all those years ago and had the cap flexibility to bring in some good FA signings, trades, and some boom/bust drafts. He IS, however, the GOAT HC. You won’t get me disputing that. But his failures as a GM quite possibly cost this team more Lombardi trophies from 2004-2014.

You make a good argument. I just find a lot of it hindsight-ish and have a hard time accepting "this team could have had more Lombardis" type of stuff when what this team did do over the last twenty years is unprecedented. So saying "best ever could have been better" is a bit too much imo.

I also think you somewhat minimize how hard it is to get to and win a superbowl. During the ten year drought they went to two super bowls and during both the Pats had significant injuries. Winning a super bowl requires some luck in the health category.

Lastly I do agree that BBs drafts of late are underwhelming although I do think the last three have produced some starting talent but yes, seemingly no real home runs. With that said, BB and the Patriots aren't going to a record eight straight AFC championship games, winning five and picking up three more titles with a bunch of coachable schlubs. So you can rank him where you'd like but, imo, with 9 Super Bowl appearances, six wins and 18 division titles puts him at or near the top especially when you consider all that was done during the salary cap era. Team building and cap management has to count for something.

Anyway good post.

 

[rochrist]

I think you're underrating Belichick some there, but in terms of pure talent pulled in I don't know that he's historically great overall, unless we're grading Brady as anything but a hilarious fluke.

Overall he's very good on the defensive side in the draft and FA/trades. The Pats have had more than their fair share of iconic defensive players during the dynasty years. Yes, coaching did maximize the talent, but you can't argue that they haven't had quality rosters on D for most of this run.

OL quality has been consistently good. Again you can point to BB the coach (and Scar) making the most of them, but plenty of the guys were also just good players in a vacuum. The running back position has usually been a quality platoon setup at least.

Cap management has been elite for almost the entire run. Brady has some discount years without a doubt, but this has been exaggerated by some - for instance in 2010 he was the highest paid player in football.

Just How Much Has Tom Brady Given Up In His Career | Over the Cap

Just How Much Has Tom Brady Given Up In His Career | Over the Cap

overthecap.com

WR has been a dumpster fire in the draft outside Deion Branch, and also Edelman but he was a multi year project picked late that was basically pure luck. TE has Gronk and a ton of wasted picks with a "good player/angel dust powered murderer" thrown in there that you can grade however you like I guess. Also a ton of WR busts in FA to go with the nice role players and the Randy Moss/Wes Welker jackpot of 2007.

JE was pretty good from the get go. He was being held back far more by being behind Welker and a few unfortunate injuries. You might recall when Welker went down with an injury before the last game of the season JE's first year, he stepped in and made 10 catches for 103 yards in the season finale, and then followed that up with 6 catches against Baltimore in his first playoff game.

And as for TE, they drafted both Daniel Graham and Ben Watson, neither of whom was chopped liver.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think people are in LOVE with WRs. I mean, what is it about WRs that makes patsfans’ knees weak ? For the most part, they are overpaid divas who do a lot of talking. Not much winning. Since 2000, I’d say the team with the best receivers has rarely been SB champ.

BB’s usage of cap space on other positions is one of the reasons NE’s been a winner. I will acknowledge that his drafting of WRs has been poor. But the obsession on here for WRs seems unwarranted. They rarely lead to championships. I’d go as far as « there have been more diva WRs who’ve ruined teams than WRs who’ve won the SB for their team ».

Agree that the top-end receivers are very overpaid and aren’t worth it, but it’s rare nowadays to see a championship team without at least one very good receiver. I don’t think it’s fair to limit the championship winning teams to having ”the best receivers” since that just places an arbitrary test kind of like saying an MVP hasn’t won a SB since 1999.

But since 2000, here are WRs who have appeared in the SB:

Torry Holt
Isaac Bruce
Jerry Rice
Tim Brown
Keyshawn Johnson
Deion Branch
Steve Smith
Terrell Owens
Hines Ward
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Plaxico Burress
Larry Fitzgerald
Anquan Boldin
Santonio Holmes
Jordy Nelson
Greg Jennings
Hakeem Nicks
Victor Cruz
Doug Baldwin
Demaryius Thomas
Julian Edelman
Emmanuel Sanders
Julio Jones
Alshon Jeffrey
Brandin Cooks
Tyreek Hill

 

[farn]

Agree that the top-end receivers are very overpaid and aren’t worth it, but it’s rare nowadays to see a championship team without at least one very good receiver. I don’t think it’s fair to limit the championship winning teams to having ”the best receivers” since that just places an arbitrary test kind of like saying an MVP hasn’t won a SB since 1999.

But since 2000, here are WRs who have appeared in the SB:

Torry Holt
Isaac Bruce
Jerry Rice
Tim Brown
Keyshawn Johnson
Deion Branch
Steve Smith
Terrell Owens
Hines Ward
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Plaxico Burress
Larry Fitzgerald
Anquan Boldin
Santonio Holmes
Jordy Nelson
Greg Jennings
Hakeem Nicks
Victor Cruz
Doug Baldwin
Demaryius Thomas
Julian Edelman
Emmanuel Sanders
Julio Jones
Alshon Jeffrey
Brandin Cooks
Tyreek Hill

I don’t care about appeared. Winners of the SB. Most of the players on your list are from the runner up. Making my point.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don’t care about appeared. Winners of the SB. Most of the players on your list are from the runner up. Making my point.

Then it seems like your point isn’t actually about the overall strength of teams correlating with their WRs but mere randomness, since most of these games were decided by less than a TD.

You’re finding random patterns rather than actual causation.

 

[farn]

Then it seems like your point isn’t actually about the overall strength of teams correlating with their WRs but mere randomness, since most of these games were decided by less than a TD.

You’re finding random patterns rather than actual causation.

I’d argue that you are underestimating winning and that despite the small margin of victory, I still maintain that often times - in the playoffs and in the biggest games - the WRs aren’t the true deciding factor. Depth & key players on ST & D are more often the deciding factor.

 

[carmelo15]

If you gave another GM Brady for 20 years taking below market contracts for the last 7 when they were winning those 3 SBs then yeah, I think you would have a few GMs with that success or maybe more success. Bill cost us a ring with the Butler benching.

Lol right completely leaves out BB having the GOAT at the most important portion and he was taking discounts. plenty good GM’s end up being screwed when they have to pay a mediocre QB top dollars

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I’d argue that you are underestimating winning and that despite the small margin of victory, I still maintain that often times - in the playoffs and in the biggest games - the WRs aren’t the true deciding factor. Depth & key players on ST & D are more often the deciding factor.

If the playoffs are decided as such, why are so many great receivers making it all the way to the final round?

Can you give some actual examples? Which depth and key players? How about special teams examples? Which games, players, and situations are you referring to?

I just listed over 30 specific players. Regardless, I don’t think WRs are the deciding factor, as no single position is. But I’d bet that QB performance is the highest correlation to winning and WR production overlaps with it.

Also there is no actual statistical difference between the regular season and postseason.

 

[carmelo15]

Ozzie is definitely an excellent GM. Not nearly as successful as BB but certainly one of the best in the last 20 years.

how would he look if the money he had to pay flacco was for Brady instead

 

[Tottie]

I’d argue that you are underestimating winning and that despite the small margin of victory, I still maintain that often times - in the playoffs and in the biggest games - the WRs aren’t the true deciding factor. Depth & key players on ST & D are more often the deciding factor.

The SB itself isn't all that matters. It's like guys saying our last superbowl was all defense. Those WRs were important in getting there. That said I agree with you that WRs in general are overrated, however there is a minimum standard and NE has pushed that standard for a few years. I agree though that that paying a guy max WR money hasn't worked out in terms of winning a SB overall. THat's not what people are arguing though. You need some talent. I don't understand how BB drafted Harry. It smells like Josh to me but overall we must give NE credit for Jules also. What a find he was.

 

[Doctor DDS]

how would he look if the money he had to pay flacco was for Brady instead

I would argue that he did not have to pay Flacco. Everyone knew at the time that he was not an elite QB and that the contract would kill their cap which it did. No way BB would have given him that contract. No question that hitting the jackpot on a QB like Brady helps your chances immensely but that is true with every great player and team.

 

[farn]

If the playoffs are decided as such, why are so many great receivers making it all the way to the final round?

Can you give some actual examples? Which depth and key players? How about special teams examples? Which games, players, and situations are you referring to?

I just listed over 30 specific players. Regardless, I don’t think WRs are the deciding factor, as no single position is. But I’d bet that QB performance is the highest correlation to winning and WR production overlaps with it.

Also there is no actual statistical difference between the regular season and postseason.

Hightower & T Flowers have impacted more SBs than most of the WRs you listed there.

I do agree with you and @Tottie re : « you need to get there ». I think all three of us agree that WRs are overvalued, but maybe both of you don’t feel as strongly as I do about it ?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Hightower & T Flowers have impacted more SBs than most of the WRs you listed there.

I do agree with you and @Tottie re : « you need to get there ». I think all three of us agree that WRs are overvalued, but maybe both of you don’t feel as strongly as I do about it ?

Sounds about right...I mean, I think like @Tottie said, there’s a minimum standard needed there and you can be put at a big disadvantage if you don’t field capable guys. I’m probably overreacting because I feel a lot of posters here literally believe that the Patriots are better off without an all-pro receiver because of irrational reasons rather than the only valid one (cost.). Part of it is superstition because things ended the way they did in 2007, which has become a lightning rod of bad, irrational takes here.

I think WRs are important but overvalued because there’s so many good ones, and today’s rules mean they don’t have to be as great as before. I agree that Bill has the positional values down well. It makes no sense to pay $20M for a really good WR when there are a lot of them out there, whereas $15M for an absolute stud/rare guy like Gilmore or Revis? Sign me up for that.

There’s only so much cap room for everyone...if you can get by with an all-world QB getting the max out of average WRs, I’m all for it.

 

[RicoG]

Thanks for the list since it reinforces my point. The original post claimed this: "Those SB were brought about by guys who were brought to the team in 2014 or earlier."

So I was looking for guys who played in those Super Bowls and who joined the team after 2014.

Not so. My original point is Bill the GM was the Goat up to 2014. Since then he has been awful in drafting in the top 3 rounds.

The team was primed to go in the 1st SB run of 3 in 4 years because the team had the core pieces in place. It happened again in the 2nd SB run in 2014 all because of years of good drafting and team building.

Since I was referring how bad Bb drafting in the top 3 rounds has been after 2014. I'll list those core players on that 2014 team that was drafted in the top 3.
CHUNG, Mccourty, Gronkowski, mayo, C Jones, Hightower, Vereen, Collins, Solder, JG, Harman, L Ryan. Most of these guys are pro bowlers.

That is quite a list and that is not including other core veterans who weren't drafted in the top 3 rds by NE such as Edelman, Amendola and Brady.

From 2015 onward in top 3 rounds, only Thuney, Wynn, Harris, Winovich were good draft picks at their spot. Is there a pro bowler here ?

Very poor indeed.

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

I think people are in LOVE with WRs. I mean, what is it about WRs that makes patsfans’ knees weak ? For the most part, they are overpaid divas who do a lot of talking. Not much winning. Since 2000, I’d say the team with the best receivers has rarely been SB champ.

BB’s usage of cap space on other positions is one of the reasons NE’s been a winner. I will acknowledge that his drafting of WRs has been poor. But the obsession on here for WRs seems unwarranted. They rarely lead to championships. I’d go as far as « there have been more diva WRs who’ve ruined teams than WRs who’ve won the SB for their team ».

WTH you talking about? I don’t care about big name receivers. Get me ones that can get open and stretch the field. If bill could draft wideouts we wouldn’t be glamouring the position so much. He also wouldn’t be trading for ones. This team’s number 1 or 2 receiver is 34 and injured. They don’t have a true number 1 or 2 for the matter . I like meyers but he’s a number 3 at best.

 

[skinnydog]

I don’t care about appeared. Winners of the SB. Most of the players on your list are from the runner up. Making my point.

You obviously don’t need a top 5 WR to win a Super Bowl, but you do need an above WR room at least. This is a passing league and consistently whiffing on WRs in the draft is not a recipe for success.