Reiss - NE has the highest rate of WR non separation in the NFL

[203Pat]

You just need to point out a weakness in his game that you see on film and it's immediately called bashing or perpetuating a narrative.

I don’t know why acknowledging a flaw/flaws in his game means you think he is terrible all around. I am still a Cam fan and think that he can still be successful as a Patriot but to pretend like his last two games weren’t bad is disingenuous.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I think we have to ask if the problem is our receivers, or the routes they are being asked to run.

 

[Gumby]

Going back to original article, two points (only one of which Reiss hits lightly) based on WHAT they measuring:
Separation at the TIME of a TARGET!!!

1. The aren't measuring maximum separation during that targeted route
2. they aren't measuring the maximum separation of ANY WR on a play

So these metrics are better or worse based on the choices a QB makes of both WHICH WR to throw to and WHEN DURING ROUTE he tries to hit them.
Therefore this article/metrics doesn't tell us if the problem isn't actually Cam not picking the open guy or throwing too late and trying to squeeze into tight windows. So it isn't necessarily a complete indictment of our receivers. (Although certainly smells bad.)

 

[Chevrolet]

It sure seems like Belichick, whose never been into excuses, is blaming the lack of practice for the team's offensive woes. Every time I hear him speak he brings it up.

I am probably one of the biggest BB fans out here. However I do agree with this comment. The Patriot way since BB has been here has always been about never making excuses and focusing on trying to get better every day. If excuses are to be made it should be that the offense sucks because the front office did a poor job putting this team together as reflected by the complete lack of TE and WR talent.

Nothing you can do about missing the practices and so why give the players an excuse to fall back on?

 

[jmt57]

Excellent excellent post. We've had to use FA and trades for WR since we are terrible at drafting outside of O'Brien's tenure getting Gronk, Edelman, Hernandez. I wonder if our crappy WR drafting and also poor DB drafting is related to this article. I still have nightmares thinking about how bad those 04, 05, and 06 drafts were, and now from 2012-present:

"When McDaniels and Caserio were tasked [in 2003] with scouting New England's opposing receivers and corners, they took it further, creating a formula for size, speed, ball skills, scheme and assignments. Then they developed a ranking system based on the Patriots' personnel and playbook. Impressed, Belichick ditched his manual for scouting receivers and corners, replacing it with what he'd learned."

IT TAKES A GENIUS

A LOT OF NFL OWNERS LIKE TO PLUCK BRANCHES OFF BILL BELICHICK'S COACHING TREE. IF ONLY HIS SAPLINGS GREW SO MIGHTY.

www.espn.com

This morning I decided to look at Pittsburgh's history of drafting receivers, since they are considered to be the gold standard of drafting WR. It took just a few seconds to see that the Steelers place a very large emphasis of utilizing the draft to fill their roster at WR (whereas the Pats tend to fill their WR position with veterans via trades).

for the tl;dr crowd: Steelers draft very well at WR, but they also draft far more often than most at WR​

As I was looking at Pittsburgh's draft history I wondered what positions they devalued for using draft capital. Knowing that there are more positions that need to be filled than there are draft picks available, there must be position(s) they fill by other means (undrafted rookies, waivers, trade, low price free agency, mid price free agency, high end free agency). Same holds true for every NFL team in terms of roster building.

It immediately became obvious that one group of positions the Steelers tend to downplay via the draft was the entire offensive line. I decided to look at 2000-2020; this length of time would provide a good sample size, and it would also correspond with Belichick's hire with New England.

In that time the Steelers have had 167 draft picks. In that time Pittsburgh selected a wide receiver 24 times, and an offensive lineman 26 times. (In the last eight drafts the Steelers have selected an offensive lineman just five times, with none in the first two rounds; the four chosen prior to rookie Kevin Dotson never amounted to anything.) To me that's a big disparity considering you are comparing three starting positions to five; offensive linemen rarely play all 16 games due to injuries; and as a result of Pittsburgh's success at drafting receivers the WR position was rarely a position of need.

Here is the WR breakdown by round, with an admittedly off-the-cuff grade of good (+) or not (-)
1st: Santonio Holmes '06 (+); Plaxico Burress '00 (+)
2nd: Chase Claypool, '20 (+); JuJu Smith-Schuster '17 (+); Limas Sweed '08 (-); Antwaan Randle El '02 (+)
3rd: Diontae Johnson '19 (+); Sammie Coates '15 (-); Dri Archer '14 (-); Markus Wheaton '13 (-); Emmanuel Sanders '10 (+); Mike Wallace '09 (+)
4th: Martavis Bryant '14 (-); Fred Gibson '05 (-); Danny Farmer '00 (-)
5th: none
6th: Justin Brown '13 (-); Antonio Brown '10 (+); Lee Mays '02 (-)
7th: Demarcus Ayers '16 (-); Toney Clemons '12 (-); Dallas Baker '07 (-); Chris Taylor '01 (-)

Pittsburgh deserves to be lauded for their prowess in the early rounds, hitting on five out of six selections from the first two rounds and eight out of twelve in rounds 1-3.

One thing that should be noted is that from the 4th round on only one of the ten players drafted was a hit. Something to keep in mind when labeling a player a draft bust; perhaps our collective expectations for success in the latter rounds (Jeremy Ebert, Josh Boyce, Jeremy Gallon, Devin Lucien) is too high.

The Steelers have truly hit on many of their wide receiver picks - nine in the last two decades - but they have also spent a great deal of draft capital on the position. (The trend goes back further as well: a 2nd & 7th in '97, a 3rd in '98, a 1st in '99.) The Pittsburgh organization has a completely different mindset to roster management and draft strategy than the Patriots do under Belichick. I am not convinced that one method is right and the other is wrong, as both organizations have been extremely successful in comparison to the rest of the league during this time frame.

 

[Chevrolet]

This morning I decided to look at Pittsburgh's history of drafting receivers, since they are considered to be the gold standard of drafting WR. It took just a few seconds to see that the Steelers place a very large emphasis of utilizing the draft to fill their roster at WR (whereas the Pats tend to fill their WR position with veterans via trades).

for the tl;dr crowd: Steelers draft very well at WR, but they also draft far more often than most at WR​

As I was looking at Pittsburgh's draft history I wondered what positions they devalued for using draft capital. Knowing that there are more positions that need to be filled than there are draft picks available, there must be position(s) they fill by other means (undrafted rookies, waivers, trade, low price free agency, mid price free agency, high end free agency). Same holds true for every NFL team in terms of roster building.

It immediately became obvious that one group of positions the Steelers tend to downplay via the draft was the entire offensive line. I decided to look at 2000-2020; this length of time would provide a good sample size, and it would also correspond with Belichick's hire with New England.

In that time the Steelers have had 167 draft picks. In that time Pittsburgh selected a wide receiver 24 times, and an offensive lineman 26 times. (In the last eight drafts the Steelers have selected an offensive lineman just five times, with none in the first two rounds; the four chosen prior to rookie Kevin Dotson never amounted to anything.) To me that's a big disparity considering you are comparing three starting positions to five; offensive linemen rarely play all 16 games due to injuries; and as a result of Pittsburgh's success at drafting receivers the WR position was rarely a position of need.

Here is the WR breakdown by round, with an admittedly off-the-cuff grade of good (+) or not (-)
1st: Santonio Holmes '06 (+); Plaxico Burress '00 (+)
2nd: Chase Claypool, '20 (+); JuJu Smith-Schuster '17 (+); Limas Sweed '08 (-); Antwaan Randle El '02 (+)
3rd: Diontae Johnson '19 (+); Sammie Coates '15 (-); Dri Archer '14 (-); Markus Wheaton '13 (-); Emmanuel Sanders '10 (+); Mike Wallace '09 (+)
4th: Martavis Bryant '14 (-); Fred Gibson '05 (-); Danny Farmer '00 (-)
5th: none
6th: Justin Brown '13 (-); Antonio Brown '10 (+); Lee Mays '02 (-)
7th: Demarcus Ayers '16 (-); Toney Clemons '12 (-); Dallas Baker '07 (-); Chris Taylor '01 (-)

Pittsburgh deserves to be lauded for their prowess in the early rounds, hitting on five out of six selections from the first two rounds and eight out of twelve in rounds 1-3.

One thing that should be noted is that from the 4th round on only one of the ten players drafted was a hit. Something to keep in mind when labeling a player a draft bust; perhaps our collective expectations for success in the latter rounds (Jeremy Ebert, Josh Boyce, Jeremy Gallon, Devin Lucien) is too high.

The Steelers have truly hit on many of their wide receiver picks - nine in the last two decades - but they have also spent a great deal of draft capital on the position. (The trend goes back further as well: a 2nd & 7th in '97, a 3rd in '98, a 1st in '99.) The Pittsburgh organization has a completely different mindset to roster management and draft strategy than the Patriots do under Belichick. I am not convinced that one method is right and the other is wrong, as both organizations have been extremely successful in comparison to the rest of the league during this time frame.

Maybe a big part of it is the Steelers system which allows WRs to gain a lot of confidence in their first year and also that their playbook is relatively simple compared to the Patriots Playbook. I think the Patriots have relied heavily on outsmarting teams through complex schemes rather than simply executing a simple system. Until McDaniels leaves and a new simpler system is used, I expect this problem with rookie WRs and TEs will continue. Maybe its not the draft selections but it is the system.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

This morning I decided to look at Pittsburgh's history of drafting receivers, since they are considered to be the gold standard of drafting WR. It took just a few seconds to see that the Steelers place a very large emphasis of utilizing the draft to fill their roster at WR (whereas the Pats tend to fill their WR position with veterans via trades).

for the tl;dr crowd: Steelers draft very well at WR, but they also draft far more often than most at WR​

As I was looking at Pittsburgh's draft history I wondered what positions they devalued for using draft capital. Knowing that there are more positions that need to be filled than there are draft picks available, there must be position(s) they fill by other means (undrafted rookies, waivers, trade, low price free agency, mid price free agency, high end free agency). Same holds true for every NFL team in terms of roster building.

It immediately became obvious that one group of positions the Steelers tend to downplay via the draft was the entire offensive line. I decided to look at 2000-2020; this length of time would provide a good sample size, and it would also correspond with Belichick's hire with New England.

In that time the Steelers have had 167 draft picks. In that time Pittsburgh selected a wide receiver 24 times, and an offensive lineman 26 times. (In the last eight drafts the Steelers have selected an offensive lineman just five times, with none in the first two rounds; the four chosen prior to rookie Kevin Dotson never amounted to anything.) To me that's a big disparity considering you are comparing three starting positions to five; offensive linemen rarely play all 16 games due to injuries; and as a result of Pittsburgh's success at drafting receivers the WR position was rarely a position of need.

Here is the WR breakdown by round, with an admittedly off-the-cuff grade of good (+) or not (-)
1st: Santonio Holmes '06 (+); Plaxico Burress '00 (+)
2nd: Chase Claypool, '20 (+); JuJu Smith-Schuster '17 (+); Limas Sweed '08 (-); Antwaan Randle El '02 (+)
3rd: Diontae Johnson '19 (+); Sammie Coates '15 (-); Dri Archer '14 (-); Markus Wheaton '13 (-); Emmanuel Sanders '10 (+); Mike Wallace '09 (+)
4th: Martavis Bryant '14 (-); Fred Gibson '05 (-); Danny Farmer '00 (-)
5th: none
6th: Justin Brown '13 (-); Antonio Brown '10 (+); Lee Mays '02 (-)
7th: Demarcus Ayers '16 (-); Toney Clemons '12 (-); Dallas Baker '07 (-); Chris Taylor '01 (-)

Pittsburgh deserves to be lauded for their prowess in the early rounds, hitting on five out of six selections from the first two rounds and eight out of twelve in rounds 1-3.

One thing that should be noted is that from the 4th round on only one of the ten players drafted was a hit. Something to keep in mind when labeling a player a draft bust; perhaps our collective expectations for success in the latter rounds (Jeremy Ebert, Josh Boyce, Jeremy Gallon, Devin Lucien) is too high.

The Steelers have truly hit on many of their wide receiver picks - nine in the last two decades - but they have also spent a great deal of draft capital on the position. (The trend goes back further as well: a 2nd & 7th in '97, a 3rd in '98, a 1st in '99.) The Pittsburgh organization has a completely different mindset to roster management and draft strategy than the Patriots do under Belichick. I am not convinced that one method is right and the other is wrong, as both organizations have been extremely successful in comparison to the rest of the league during this time frame.

Excellent post !

Yes. So they have found hits on lower picks but when they do spend a high WR pick, chances are it hits. It's how I feel when the Pats invest a high pick on an OLineman, it's usually a hit since Scar was so good at evals. And they do spend more draft capital on the WR position. But apples to apples the Pats have not been as successful drafting WRs even when one zeroes in on the same general range of draft pick spots.

.

 

[Brewskies]

It has taken over the Tompa Bay/Gronk thread. I think it's a sore subject and many fans are rightfully concerned. The sad fact is that our offense IS trash.

Brady wasn't the answer.

 

[jmt57]

Excellent post !

Yes. So they have found hits on lower picks but when they do spend a high WR pick, chances are it hits. It's how I feel when the Pats invest a high pick on an OLineman, it's usually a hit since Scar was so good at evals. And they do spend more draft capital on the WR position. But apples to apples the Pats have not been as successful drafting WRs even when one zeroes in on the same general range of draft pick spots.

.

The thing that jumped out to me is how heavily the Steelers emphasize the WR position. For example:

• 2000: Pittsburgh had used a #1 at WR the previous year, and had two young receivers (Troy Edwards, Hines Ward) with 61 receptions in '99 returning; they use their #1 pick on yet another WR (Plaxico Burress).
• 2002: Just two years later they use a #2 on another WR.
• 2006: After drafting Roethlisberger in '04, they give him weapons with the next two first round picks: TE Heath Miller in '05, and WR Santonio Holmes in '06. Steelers also use a 4th in '05 and a 3rd in '06 at WR.
• 2008: Prior to the draft Pittsburgh has a WR corps of Ward, Holmes, Nate Washington, Cedrick Reid; they use their #2 pick at WR again (Limas Sweed).
• 2009: Sweed doesn't show much as a rookie, so they draft Mike Wallace. As a rookie he leads the NFL in yards per catch.
• 2010: On draft day the Steelers trade Holmes - who was coming off a season with 79 catches for 1248 yards, and was only 25 - and draft both Emmanuel Sanders and Antonio Brown.
• 2013-2020: 3rd & 6th in 2013; 3rd & 4th in 2014; 3rd in 2015; 6th in 2016; 2nd in 2017; 2nd in 2018; 3rd in 2019; 2nd in 2020. That amounts to three 2nds, four 3rds, and three late round picks.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The thing that jumped out to me is how heavily the Steelers emphasize the WR position. For example:

• 2000: Pittsburgh had used a #1 at WR the previous year, and had two young receivers (Troy Edwards, Hines Ward) with 61 receptions in '99 returning; they use their #1 pick on yet another WR (Plaxico Burress).
• 2002: Just two years later they use a #2 on another WR.
• 2006: After drafting Roethlisberger in '04, they give him weapons with the next two first round picks: TE Heath Miller in '05, and WR Santonio Holmes in '06. Steelers also use a 4th in '05 and a 3rd in '06 at WR.
• 2008: Prior to the draft Pittsburgh has a WR corps of Ward, Holmes, Nate Washington, Cedrick Reid; they use their #2 pick at WR again (Limas Sweed).
• 2009: Sweed doesn't show much as a rookie, so they draft Mike Wallace. As a rookie he leads the NFL in yards per catch.
• 2010: On draft day the Steelers trade Holmes - who was coming off a season with 79 catches for 1248 yards, and was only 25 - and draft both Emmanuel Sanders and Antonio Brown.
• 2013-2020: 3rd & 6th in 2013; 3rd & 4th in 2014; 3rd in 2015; 6th in 2016; 2nd in 2017; 2nd in 2018; 3rd in 2019; 2nd in 2020. That amounts to three 2nds, four 3rds, and three late round picks.

I wonder who their WR coach is. Clearly respected on the staff. Like Scar was for us on OLine.

Strategically I wonder if the Steelers think it makes sense to draft WRs but not pay them big money to stay.

.
.

 

[jmt57]

I wonder who their WR coach is. Clearly respected on the staff. Like Scar was for us on OLine.

It doesn't appear that they have had a single Scar-like presence - though their WR coaches have had plenty of experience.
2020: Ike Hilliard (11 years experience as WR coach, plus 12 years experience in NFL at WR)
2018-19: Darryl Drake (29 years experience as a WR coach prior to joining Steelers; passed away after 2019 season)
2013-17: Richard Mann (36 years experience as a WR coach prior to joining Steelers; retired at age 70)

Strategically I wonder if the Steelers think it makes sense to draft WRs but not pay them big money to stay.

It does look that way, as they either let every WR draft pick other than Hines Ward go once their initial rookie contract was done, or traded them away the year before they were about to hit free agency.

 

[captain stone]

I regret clicking on this thread.

Why?

 

[captain stone]

Prior to drafting Harry, the last time the Pats drafted a WR was in 2016 with Malcolm Mitchell - in the 4th round, 112th overall. He was on his way to being a productive player before injury prematurely ended his pro football career, so I'm hesitant to call him a bad pick; more of a case of bad luck rather than bad scouting.

Mal Mitchell was already Damaged Goods coming out of college...He was over-drafted by a full round; as long as Rashad Higgins was still available then Mitchell should not have been chosen before him...

 

[captain stone]

"When McDaniels and Caserio were tasked [in 2003] with scouting New England's opposing receivers and corners, they took it further, creating a formula for size, speed, ball skills, scheme and assignments. Then they developed a ranking system based on the Patriots' personnel and playbook. Impressed, Belichick ditched his manual for scouting receivers and corners, replacing it with what he'd learned."

IT TAKES A GENIUS

A LOT OF NFL OWNERS LIKE TO PLUCK BRANCHES OFF BILL BELICHICK'S COACHING TREE. IF ONLY HIS SAPLINGS GREW SO MIGHTY.

www.espn.com

Time for Bill to find that old manual of his...

 

[Patriot Missile]

Why?

True dat. I think it’s a great thread and something I’ve considered for some time now.

Thanks for the time put in JMT.

 

[jmt57]

True dat. I think it’s a great thread and something I’ve considered for some time now.

Thanks for the time put in JMT.

Trying to make a small glass of lemonade out of a lemon.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

I think we have to ask if the problem is our receivers, or the routes they are being asked to run.

“You run away from the defender, not with them!”

 

[Tony2046]

This morning I decided to look at Pittsburgh's history of drafting receivers, since they are considered to be the gold standard of drafting WR. It took just a few seconds to see that the Steelers place a very large emphasis of utilizing the draft to fill their roster at WR (whereas the Pats tend to fill their WR position with veterans via trades).

for the tl;dr crowd: Steelers draft very well at WR, but they also draft far more often than most at WR​

As I was looking at Pittsburgh's draft history I wondered what positions they devalued for using draft capital. Knowing that there are more positions that need to be filled than there are draft picks available, there must be position(s) they fill by other means (undrafted rookies, waivers, trade, low price free agency, mid price free agency, high end free agency). Same holds true for every NFL team in terms of roster building.

It immediately became obvious that one group of positions the Steelers tend to downplay via the draft was the entire offensive line. I decided to look at 2000-2020; this length of time would provide a good sample size, and it would also correspond with Belichick's hire with New England.

In that time the Steelers have had 167 draft picks. In that time Pittsburgh selected a wide receiver 24 times, and an offensive lineman 26 times. (In the last eight drafts the Steelers have selected an offensive lineman just five times, with none in the first two rounds; the four chosen prior to rookie Kevin Dotson never amounted to anything.) To me that's a big disparity considering you are comparing three starting positions to five; offensive linemen rarely play all 16 games due to injuries; and as a result of Pittsburgh's success at drafting receivers the WR position was rarely a position of need.

Here is the WR breakdown by round, with an admittedly off-the-cuff grade of good (+) or not (-)
1st: Santonio Holmes '06 (+); Plaxico Burress '00 (+)
2nd: Chase Claypool, '20 (+); JuJu Smith-Schuster '17 (+); Limas Sweed '08 (-); Antwaan Randle El '02 (+)
3rd: Diontae Johnson '19 (+); Sammie Coates '15 (-); Dri Archer '14 (-); Markus Wheaton '13 (-); Emmanuel Sanders '10 (+); Mike Wallace '09 (+)
4th: Martavis Bryant '14 (-); Fred Gibson '05 (-); Danny Farmer '00 (-)
5th: none
6th: Justin Brown '13 (-); Antonio Brown '10 (+); Lee Mays '02 (-)
7th: Demarcus Ayers '16 (-); Toney Clemons '12 (-); Dallas Baker '07 (-); Chris Taylor '01 (-)

Pittsburgh deserves to be lauded for their prowess in the early rounds, hitting on five out of six selections from the first two rounds and eight out of twelve in rounds 1-3.

One thing that should be noted is that from the 4th round on only one of the ten players drafted was a hit. Something to keep in mind when labeling a player a draft bust; perhaps our collective expectations for success in the latter rounds (Jeremy Ebert, Josh Boyce, Jeremy Gallon, Devin Lucien) is too high.

The Steelers have truly hit on many of their wide receiver picks - nine in the last two decades - but they have also spent a great deal of draft capital on the position. (The trend goes back further as well: a 2nd & 7th in '97, a 3rd in '98, a 1st in '99.) The Pittsburgh organization has a completely different mindset to roster management and draft strategy than the Patriots do under Belichick. I am not convinced that one method is right and the other is wrong, as both organizations have been extremely successful in comparison to the rest of the league during this time frame.

I looked up the draft value each team has used for receivers since 2000 based on the Walter football draft value chart.

Pats have used 2736 points of draft value.

Pittsburgh used 5036 points of draft value.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I looked up the draft value each team has used for receivers since 2000 based on the Walter football draft value chart.

Pats have used 2736 points of draft value.

Pittsburgh used 5036 points of draft value.

sounds like they should start investing more draft value into wr’s until they hit or just hire “Manxman”to make the damn pick.

 

[BradytoMosstoGronk]