For the "Brady made Belichick" crowd

[luuked]

My obsession with shut outs? How many times did I bring up the shut out? Twice maybe?

Anyways point is you have no credibility to start to make excuses about losses where your QB dropped 41 points on a team they could even score on a few week ago when you already are trying to to self serving go from 118 games to only considering 20.

When 4 weeks later you have a 41 point turn around against the same team that results in a change in outcome and the difference is you went back to your starting QB, it is evidence of the value of your QB in that context. The end. Maybe follow along on the posts you are responding to before getting upset.

You truly have issues with reading comprehension. You are barking up the wrong tree because i have never engaged in a single discussion with you about QB play. So stop moving the conversation to completely irrelevant things.

All I said is that you chose a game where all 3 QBs on the roster were either suspended or injured which given how football works nowadays is not particularly representative of anything.

 

[sb1]

The BB can plug any QB in and win crowd is in for a real dose of truth.

Get the popcorn ready.

Nah I’ll save mine for when the TB12 clinic and Brady’s fake doctor little buddy goes the way of Balco.

 

[luuked]

The notion Tom would have made Marty Mornhinweg or Rich Kotite the winningest coach in history, or made Ryan Grigson's GM decisions and drafts look good is glue sniffing fan blather... it's absurd.

The notion can be refuted simply by looking how other elite QBs who have played above or around Brady's level at various points in time have failed to show similar level of sustained success. Where are the consecutive Championship Games and multiple SB berths for Rodgers, Brees & co ? Wilson went to two in a row and then the Seahawks where never seen or heard again.

I don't get what it is that makes people so weirdly territorial about recognizing that Brady and BB were multipliers for each other and just elevated the success even further than any of them individually would have gone.

 

[lancerman]

You truly have issues with reading comprehension. You are barking up the wrong tree because i have never engaged in a single discussion with you about QB play. So stop moving the conversation to completely irrelevant things.

All I said is that you chose a game where all 3 QBs on the roster were either suspended or injured which given how football works nowadays is not particularly representative of anything.

Omg dude, please lol. You quoted my post, the post was part of a broader discussion with someone else. You nit picked one part of it and then claimed I was “obsessed” with shutouts. You are a joke and deliberately misleading, bye.

 

[Falcons2020]

Belichick probably wins one without Brady.

Brady is likely out of football years ago if he wasn’t drafted and groomed by the Patriots.

To your first point, maybe. Does Bledsoe win a title by 2007with BB? Who knows. It’s a good possibility. But Brady took an estimated 70-100 million in discounts over the years. How many titles were made possible by Brady being team first. How many otherQB’s take the discount? None

As to your second point it has no credibility, logic or truth. Since turning 37 Brady has more playoff passing yards than Brees entire playoff career...more TD’s after 37 than Elway in his playoff career.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Yup. I think it’s possible he wins one - not 6- with a good coach like say, Andy Reid. The question is would anyone other than Belichick have given him a real shot to supplant a franchise QB who just signed a huge deal? Doubt it. There was a good reason why he was ignored until the 6th round, his scouting report wasn’t exactly flattering.

Just want to note, in The Dynasty, it’s pointed out that Rehbein and others on the Pats coaching staff didn’t expect him to still be available on day 2 (which was 4th round at the time). So they thought he was going 3rd round. It’s pointed out that multiple times on day 2, BB kept saying, “Brady’s on the board. Why is he still there????” Yet they still kept passing on him - because they needed so much else and felt QB was a luxury position. Kraft didn’t understand why BB kept bringing him up because they were set at QB.... finally it reached a point where they couldn’t take it anymore and picked Brady.

So the Pats thought he was more than a 6th round talent. And, of course, we all know Bill Polian had a 1st round grade on him but already had Peyton......

 

[Falcons2020]

Brady doesn’t win squat w/o great defenses on the other side of the ball.

2018: 19th in defensive DVOA/ 5th Offense

2017: 31st in defensive DVOA/ 1st Offense

2016: 16th in defensive DVOA/ 2nd Offense

2015: 11th Defense/ 5th Offense

2014: 13th Defense/ 6th Offense

2013: 20th/ 4th Offense

2012: 17th Defense/ 1st Offense

2011: 30th Defensive DVOA/ 2nd Offensive DVOA

2010: 23rd Defensive DVOA/ 1st Offensive DVOA

2009: 14th Defensive DVOA/ 1st Offensive DVOA

The notion that BB supports Brady with a great defense every year is simply a inaccurate narrative and has been since 2007. The offense carried that team for the last decade

 

[Kasmir]

The BB can plug any QB in and win crowd is in for a real dose of truth.

Get the popcorn ready.

So you admit you're actually hoping for the team's failure to prove you right? You have become a troll. What the pro-Belichick crowd has gong for them is that they're actually Patriots fans, not Brady fans.

I have to admit the insane anti-Belichick hatred here makes it impossible to root for Brady. You won't enjoy your popcorn much when your 43 year old QB fails to complete the season, will you...

 

[50-yard-line]

Who would that QB be?

The best BB Pats draft pick of Brady was due to dumb luck. Cassel had his limits. Jimmy Baby is a fraud and choker. Klingsbury, Davey, Brisket, Mallet.

BB is not a great drafter. Look at his Cleveland drafts. I would trust the Candy Man's mock draft first.

You do realize that with Tom Brady under center, they really weren't spending a lot of draft capital on QB, right? yeah, they got lower round guys with limitations, but Cassel, Hoyer, Mallet, Jimmy G, and Brissett have all had pretty decent careers in a position that only allows 1 player at a time, and usually one that plays almost all the games.

 

[Kasmir]

2018: 19th in defensive DVOA/ 5th Offense

2017: 31st in defensive DVOA/ 1st Offense

2016: 16th in defensive DVOA/ 2nd Offense

2015: 11th Defense/ 5th Offense

2014: 13th Defense/ 6th Offense

2013: 20th/ 4th Offense

2012: 17th Defense/ 1st Offense

2011: 30th Defensive DVOA/ 2nd Offensive DVOA

2010: 23rd Defensive DVOA/ 1st Offensive DVOA

2009: 14th Defensive DVOA/ 1st Offensive DVOA

The notion that BB supports Brady with a great defense every year is simply a inaccurate narrative and has been since 2007. The offense carried that team for the last decade

Absolutely true; Belichick switched to offensive emphasis after he realized the impact of the rules changes. And Brady became the GOAT, at least for now.

Also true: no one except utter Brady homers thought Brady was anything but a system QB until 2004. Not even Brady homers claimed he was the GOAT, that would have been laughable. It's absurd and insulting to many great Patriots to credit Brady as the primary factor in the 2001, 2003 and 2004 seasons.

 

[sb1]

To your first point, maybe. Does Bledsoe win a title by 2007with BB? Who knows. It’s a good possibility. But Brady took an estimated 70-100 million in discounts over the years. How many titles were made possible by Brady being team first. How many otherQB’s take the discount? None

“Poor build ... Skinny ... Lacks great physical stature and strength ... Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush ... Lacks a really strong arm ... Can’t drive the ball downfield ... Does not throw a really tight spiral ... System-type player who can get exposed if forced to ad lib ... Gets knocked down easily."

That was Brady’s scouting report. Teams didn’t show a lot of interest and can you blame them? Only one team and coach in this league would even think about taking a guy like that and thankfully they did. The rest of the story came later.

As to your second point it has no credibility, logic or truth. Since turning 37 Brady has more playoff passing yards than Brees entire playoff career...more TD’s after 37 than Elway in his playoff career.

Cmon you’re not really comparing passing stats from different eras are you? Brady wouldn’t last very long in that era.

 

[Falcons2020]

Absolutely true; Belichick switched to offensive emphasis after he realized the impact of the rules changes. And Brady became the GOAT, at least for now.

Also true: no one except utter Brady homers thought Brady was anything but a system QB until 2004. Not even Brady homers claimed he was the GOAT, that would have been laughable. It's absurd and insulting to many great Patriots to credit Brady as the primary factor in the 2001, 2003 and 2004 seasons.

he was 4 years into his career in 2004. He was just an up and coming franchise QB

 

[lancerman]

2018: 19th in defensive DVOA/ 5th Offense

2017: 31st in defensive DVOA/ 1st Offense

2016: 16th in defensive DVOA/ 2nd Offense

2015: 11th Defense/ 5th Offense

2014: 13th Defense/ 6th Offense

2013: 20th/ 4th Offense

2012: 17th Defense/ 1st Offense

2011: 30th Defensive DVOA/ 2nd Offensive DVOA

The notion that BB supports Brady with a great defense every year is simply a inaccurate narrative and has been since 2007. The offense carried that team for the last decade

A big thing is most fans don’t understand the nuances and different values of DVOA and PPG. Mainly PPG isn’t a defensive stat. It’s a team stat that is influenced by all aspects of the team, defensive DVOA is an isolation of just defensive metrics. A team with a league leading offense and lead leading special teams can have a middle of the pack defensive DVOA and still finish with a good PPG against.

Anyways the truth of the matter is that both Bill and Brady needed each other. Bill provided an overall stable unit that refreshed itself every year and taught his players to execute within their assignments. Brady elevated gaps on offense which took the load off Belichick and he was capable of making the big “gotta have it play” and was able to take over games that Belichick’s system couldn’t win by just playing the odds. The 03 defense was better than the 03 offense, but they lose the game without Brady. The 04 team was strong overall, because of how deep their playoff path was, you needed both to function. In 2014, we had a great defense, but we needed a QB who could execute a two touchdown comeback against the most feared defense in the league to give our defense a chance to make a stop for a win (and quite frankly our defense let us down multiple times in that game, particularly end of the first half and were on the verge of doing it again. In 2016, the defense played solid and made all the necessary plays to give us a chance vs the Falcons, but no QB in the league was capable of executing the way Brady did in the comeback to make that count. In 2018, the defense shut the Chiefs out in the first half, but once the Chiefs got going, Brady had no room for error and needed to match them score for score.

Brady elevated the team when Bill needed it.

 

[50-yard-line]

FACT: In 7+ years without Tom Brady, Bill Belichick is career sub-.500 with all of 1 playoff win.

I can't help but laugh at seeing how triggered some people get at simple statements of fact.

What 7+ years? In his 5 years with Cleveland, a 3-13 team the year before he got there, he improved each year to get to 11-5 and the playoffs in year 4. Year 5 collapsed after Modell announced they were moving mid-season.

The next time he coached was the 5-11 first year with the Patriots, 2000, wasn't it?

 

[sb1]

Absolutely true; Belichick switched to offensive emphasis after he realized the impact of the rules changes. And Brady became the GOAT, at least for now.

Also true: no one except utter Brady homers thought Brady was anything but a system QB until 2004. Not even Brady homers claimed he was the GOAT, that would have been laughable. It's absurd and insulting to many great Patriots to credit Brady as the primary factor in the 2001, 2003 and 2004 seasons.

Yup.

There’s a reason why Ty Law (the real MVP of Super Bowl 36 in my opinion) said they could have won that SB game with Bledsoe.

I think Brady was actually more likeable back then too. Didn’t play favorites. Spread it around, threw it to the open guy instead of only his binkies and it worked well. Worked with his young receivers. Team first player. None of the arrogance that manifested itself in later years. 2001-05 Brady wouldn’t even think of scoffing at his Super Bowl opponents. Was not a celebrity wannabe like today. No tantrums or pouty press conferences, no social media BS and no TB12 and fake doctor buddies.

 

[Falcons2020]

“Poor build ... Skinny ... Lacks great physical stature and strength ... Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush ... Lacks a really strong arm ... Can’t drive the ball downfield ... Does not throw a really tight spiral ... System-type player who can get exposed if forced to ad lib ... Gets knocked down easily."

That was Brady’s scouting report. Teams didn’t show a lot of interest and can you blame them? Only one team and coach in this league would even think about taking a guy like that and thankfully they did. The rest of the story came later.



Cmon you’re not really comparing passing stats from different eras are you? Brady wouldn’t last very long in that era.

I compared Brees...same era. And scouting reports are just one part of the equation

JaMarcus Russell
Russell is possibly the most physically talented quarterback prospect since John Elway. He's 6-foot-6, 260 pounds with an arm that makes Brett Favre look like Danny Wuerffel. Russell is also a good runner and his arm strength allows him to hit any open receiver while he is on the move. He has huge hands, which help him avoid fumbles, and remarkably quick feet for such large man. Physically, Russell compares favorably to Daunte Culpepper, Byron Leftwich, and Ben Roethlisberger, all of whom have had some degree of success in the NFL. Assuming he can get his weight under control, Russell figures to be more mobile than Leftwich and Roethlisberger, but not as good of a runner as pre-injury Culpepper.

 

[lancerman]

Absolutely true; Belichick switched to offensive emphasis after he realized the impact of the rules changes. And Brady became the GOAT, at least for now.

Also true: no one except utter Brady homers thought Brady was anything but a system QB until 2004. Not even Brady homers claimed he was the GOAT, that would have been laughable. It's absurd and insulting to many great Patriots to credit Brady as the primary factor in the 2001, 2003 and 2004 seasons.

He led the league in TD’s in 2002, he was 3rd in MVP voting in 2003, he was considered elite and often compared with a Manning by 2004. They simply are not beating the Panthers without Brady going S tier in the Super Bowl. I was around at the time. The common comparison was that “Brady won more, but it might only be because he has defenses, Manning has better stats, but it might only because he has better offensive weapons“. Then Brady validated that in 07.

Brady was a system QB in 2001. He had growing pains in 02 but was already breaking out and by 03-04 he was already talked about as one of the rising stars in the league.

Really only people that weren’t around or don’t understand football think Brady was a system QB back then

 

[sb1]

I compared Brees...same era. And scouting reports are just one part of the equation

JaMarcus Russell
Russell is possibly the most physically talented quarterback prospect since John Elway. He's 6-foot-6, 260 pounds with an arm that makes Brett Favre look like Danny Wuerffel. Russell is also a good runner and his arm strength allows him to hit any open receiver while he is on the move. He has huge hands, which help him avoid fumbles, and remarkably quick feet for such large man. Physically, Russell compares favorably to Daunte Culpepper, Byron Leftwich, and Ben Roethlisberger, all of whom have had some degree of success in the NFL. Assuming he can get his weight under control, Russell figures to be more mobile than Leftwich and Roethlisberger, but not as good of a runner as pre-injury Culpepper.

Which is why he was the top pick in the draft and Brady was very fortunate he was picked at all.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Absolutely true; Belichick switched to offensive emphasis after he realized the impact of the rules changes. And Brady became the GOAT, at least for now.

Also true: no one except utter Brady homers thought Brady was anything but a system QB until 2004. Not even Brady homers claimed he was the GOAT, that would have been laughable. It's absurd and insulting to many great Patriots to credit Brady as the primary factor in the 2001, 2003 and 2004 seasons.

Sure somewhat of a system quarterback but a system quarterback that when they needed a clutch drive would just about always come through. I remember the talk very well back then. Though he didnt lead the league in stats people saw something special in him. He had "it", is what I heard from a lot of analysts back then.

 

[50-yard-line]

Which is why he was the top pick in the draft and PATRIOT FANS WERE very fortunate he was picked at all.