PATRIOTS TRAINING CAMP Training Camp Day 7

[captain stone]

Another aspect of the overall building of a team that warrants consideration - that it's not simply just athletic talent that produces results.

You can have the most gifted athlete genetics ever produced, but if he doesn't mesh with the coaching staff and cant use those gifts as part of an overall team defense...doesn't that end up being a detriment?

Adalius Thomas is a likely example - on pure talent alone he was probably one of the best LBs the Pats ever signed, but he simply wasn't a fit for a myriad of other reasons unrelated to pure athletic talent.

Bielema was as much of a problem last season as the players under him were...glad he's gone to join the Worst WRs Coach in Football with the Jersey Swamp Vagiants.

Afailus didn't become a problem until the 2009 season when there was a mini-coup attempted by certain players that came to a head during the Late for Practice Because of Snow episode...

 

[PatsBoy12]

I don't know if this was discussed yesterday but it seems very discouraging.

He sure looked good in those Instagram videos a few months back, though.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I guess with Tom gone the Pats are practicing with fully inflated footballs.

 

[FCB02062]

This no preseason game stuff must be killing Bill the GM. He doesn't have the chance to get chills down his leg from some 4th quarter Lions special teamer/6th corner, for whom he can later trade a 7th round pick

 

[Wozzy]

Some care more about being right than the success of the team

edit

 

[captain stone]

This no preseason game stuff must be killing Bill the GM. He doesn't have the chance to get chills down his leg from some 4th quarter Lions special teamer/6th corner, for whom he can later trade a 7th round pick

A 7th-rounder? Hell, Billy threw away a feckin FIFTH-rounder for one season of Bark Mingo...

 

[Wozzy]

What statement do you disagree with? Pennel was a backup who played a small amount of snaps in kc and played himself off the patriots in camp. Guy Shelton and Butler were better options. Please dispute any of those with facts rather than stories.

Pennel started two of the Chiefs three playoff games, he was crucial when Chris Jones missed game one of the playoffs with an injury and played the next game hurt.

The Chiefs run defense improved significantly when Pennel was added (6 of 7 of the highest rushing yards allowed on the season including the top five were without Pennel) to the roster, in fact he was on the team two weeks and for some reason Reid made him a healthy scratch against the Titans in week 10 and the defense gave up 225 rushing yards, a season high... he never sat again from that point on.

Nose tackles don't play a lot of snaps, they're generally only worth a damn on running downs and goal line, so saying "he was a back up" is meaningless, he played when needed, played substantial minutes for a nose tackle and made a Super Bowl victory possible. When they played the Titans in the playoffs a second time with Pennel starting they only rushed for 85 yards. These are facts, check the box scores.

Shelton is a nose tackle (339 pounds), Guy while good at leverage and run defense isn't when faced with massive opposing linemen and multiple TE's who can block, see the 2017 Super Bowl when Alan Branch (350 pounds) got hurt and the Eagles rushed for 164 yards, Adam Butler is a 3/4 rush DE... when both Guy and Butler entered the NFL they barely weighed 300 pounds, Butler was less than 300 pounds, when Pennel entered the NFL he weighed 332 pounds... again... facts.

You don't stuff a great run team with good intentions, it takes mass. There's a tool for every job, the Chiefs needed Pennel to win that ring, they wouldn't have gone anywhere without him and with Chris Jones on the injured list. That last sentence is the only opinion offered in this rebuttal, but it's as solid as granite.

 

[Ring 6]

Pennel started two of the Chiefs three playoff games, he was crucial when Chris Jones missed game one of the playoffs with an injury and played the next game hurt.

The Chiefs run defense improved significantly when Pennel was added (6 of 7 of the highest rushing yards allowed on the season including the top five were without Pennel) to the roster, in fact he was on the team two weeks and for some reason Reid made him a healthy scratch against the Titans in week 10 and the defense gave up 225 rushing yards, a season high... he never sat again from that point on.

Nose tackles don't play a lot of snaps, they're generally only worth a damn on running downs and goal line, so saying "he was a back up" is meaningless, he played when needed, played substantial minutes for a nose tackle and made a Super Bowl victory possible. When they played the Titans in the playoffs a second time with Pennel starting they only rushed for 85 yards. These are facts, check the box scores.

Shelton is a nose tackle (339 pounds), Guy while good at leverage and run defense isn't when faced with massive opposing linemen and multiple TE's who can block, see the 2017 Super Bowl when Alan Branch (350 pounds) got hurt and the Eagles rushed for 164 yards, Adam Butler is a 3/4 rush DE... when both Guy and Butler entered the NFL they barely weighed 300 pounds, Butler was less than 300 pounds, when Pennel entered the NFL he weighed 332 pounds... again... facts.

You don't stuff a great run team with good intentions, it takes mass. There's a tool for every job, the Chiefs needed Pennel to win that ring, they wouldn't have gone anywhere without him and with Chris Jones on the injured list. That last sentence is the only opinion offered in this rebuttal, but it's as solid as granite.

Pennel played 16,36 and 26% of the snaps in the playoffs.
Almost everything you said in this post is opinion. Let me break it down.

A fact is a piece of verified information that cannot be disputed. Yards rushed for is a fact, who is responsible for it if an opinion.

The patriots felt they had better players than pennel at the position is a fact.

You seemed to have turned your argument that the patriots should cut one of the only 2 experienced WRs they have into a critique of their cutdowns last year at DT, arguing we should have kept a veteran because the 3 solid veterans we kept for a 3 man rotation (all who had better seasons than pennel) weren’t enough.

it seems you just want to argue, so I will end it with, think whatever you want, we will agree to disagree.

 

[Kasmir]

Preseason? Ok.

Here's a list of the last 10 years of preseason reception yards leaders. A few stinkers in there but not a bad group overall:

Year Player Yards
2010 Victor Cruz 297
2011 Antonio Brown 230
2012 Travaris Cadet 246
2013 Stephen Williams 236
2014 Allen Hurns 232
2015 Rashad Ross 266
2016 Robby Anderson 264
2017 Dede Westbrook 288
2018 Javon Wims 227
2019 Jakobi Meyers 253

 

[Kasmir]

A 7th-rounder? Hell, Billy threw away a feckin FIFTH-rounder for one season of Bark Mingo...

Any idea why Kraft puts up with BB when there are so many general managers available who never make mistakes?

 

[Ring 6]

Here's a list of the last 10 years of preseason reception yards leaders. A few stinkers in their but not a bad group overall:

Year Player Yards
2010 Victor Cruz 297
2011 Antonio Brown 230
2012 Travaris Cadet 246
2013 Stephen Williams 236
2014 Allen Hurns 232
2015 Rashad Ross 266
2016 Robby Anderson 264
2017 Dede Westbrook 288
2018 Javon Wims 227
2019 Jakobi Meyers 253

I’m not sure how this is significant.

 

[Ring 6]

A 7th-rounder? Hell, Billy threw away a feckin FIFTH-rounder for one season of Bark Mingo...

That season turned out ok.
Pretty sure it’s nitpicking to criticize trading pick 190 to take a shot at a former first rounder who can at the least help on special teams.
Oh and mingo went on to start 21 nfl games while the guy taken with that pick never played a snap in the nfl.

 

[Kasmir]

I’m not sure how this is significant.

Exactly. The question is whether preseason performance is a predictor of later success; just showing that there might be some correlation.

My bias is to look at available data when someone makes an unsupported assertion

A better analysis would look at all the standouts not just the #1's. From eyeballing that larger list, top preseason performing rookies tend to be likely to be productive later.

 

[Ring 6]

Exactly. The question is whether preseason performance is a predictor of later success. ; just showing that there might be some correlation.

My bias is to look at available data when someone makes an unsupported assertion

A better analysis would look at all the standouts not just the #1's. From eyeballing that larger list, top performing rookies tend to be likely to be productive later.

There are too many variables for it to correlate to anything.
Did they play with 1s or 3s and against 1s or 3s? Who was on the field with them? Usually the guy who puts up a lot of numbers in preseason is doing it against scrubs on the field with scrubs but with a good young QB.
Hie consistent were the numbers? Was it one big game? A few big plays? Add in all those variables and others and it could be significant or meaningless.

 

[Kasmir]

There are too many variables for it to correlate to anything.
Did they play with 1s or 3s and against 1s or 3s? Who was on the field with them? Usually the guy who puts up a lot of numbers in preseason is doing it against scrubs on the field with scrubs but with a good young QB.
Hie consistent were the numbers? Was it one big game? A few big plays? Add in all those variables and others and it could be significant or meaningless.

You come up with a hypothesis based on the training data and test to see how well it predicts performance in the full data set. Other training data only matters if it helps produce better predictions. Your list of random questions helps not at all.

 

[Wozzy]

You come up with a hypothesis based on the training data and test to see how well it predicts performance in the full data set. Other training data only matters if it helps produce better predictions. Your list of random questions helps not at all.

I wouldn't bother, said poster ignores facts until you present them completely laid out so a twelve year old can understand them, at which point he says the stats are ambiguous and not acceptable... in other words Ring 6 is a "because I said so" poster.

No point is valid unless he makes it, and he can't differentiate between fact and opinion, then he'll accuse you of the very thing he's guilty of.

 

[Ring 6]

You come up with a hypothesis based on the training data and test to see how well it predicts performance in the full data set. Other training data only matters if it helps produce better predictions. Your list of random questions helps not at all.

It provides context. None of those number happened in the same context. Random correlation is meaningless.
Knowing whether the stats were against starters or UPS workers certainly would produce better predictions.

 

[Ring 6]

I wouldn't bother, said poster ignores facts until you present them completely laid out so a twelve year old can understand them, at which point he says the stats are ambiguous and not acceptable... in other words Ring 6 is a "because I said so" poster.

No point is valid unless he makes it, and he can't differentiate between fact and opinion, then he'll accuse you of the very thing he's guilty of.

Dude you don’t know the difference between facts and opinions and now you are gonna make a post crying about me?
Come on.

 

[Kasmir]

It provides context. None of those number happened in the same context. Random correlation is meaningless.
Knowing whether the stats were against starters or UPS workers certainly would produce better predictions.

Sorry, that's just wrong. If a hypothesis predicts well it doesn't matter what it didn't consider.

A more reasonable criticism of my feeble attempt would be to say I haven't established career performance criteria let alone showed that preseason reception yards is a good predictor of it.

If I were to continue this effort I would likely use something like Prof Football Reference's career "Average Value" measure to quantify performance and see if it can be predicted from preseason data about WR's (or QB's etc).

But I'm not going to bother because I doubt anyone is interested.

 

[Wozzy]

Dude you don’t know the difference between facts and opinions and now you are gonna make a post crying about me?
Come on.

Yeah, the five largest rushing totals on the season allowed by the Chief's defense occurred without Pennel... coincidence according to you.

The Chiefs defense allowed 158 yards per game rushing without Pennel and 100 yards per game (against better offenses) with him, a remarkable happenstance according to you. Serendipity...

Reid hired 330 pound Pennel for run stops... not because he wanted him to kick field goals, not to catch passes, not to be a lightning quick edge rusher... he wanted run stops and got them with Pennel. Something I unequivocally showed using stats (facts).

330 pound run stoppers don't play a lot, go look at Danny Shelton's snap counts.... kickers don't play a lot of snaps either, they're pretty unimportant, until you need a 48 yard field goal in the driving snow to move on in the playoffs, then they're crucial.

Both Pennel and Bennett said they had issues with Bret Bielema, the Pats could have easily gotten by without Cowart, the kid got blown off the ball in the little time he played and the Pats were susceptible to the run after the midpoint because their offense couldn't score and force opponents into passing from behind.

You ignore facts, or attribute them to opinion... facts aren't any less true because you refuse to believe them.

Now I'll move on, feel free not to reply to me in the future, there's no debating a fact ignoring "know-it-all."