GOAT QB discussions must include Johnny U.

[Tony2046]

I'm always amused when Brady fans are outraged if someone dares to suggest another QB should be in the same discussion.

Are you amused by flat earther discussions too?

 

[Tony2046]

Best response post. It's a little scary to be exposed to an intelligent post.

Well there goes your credibility right out the window. Yikes

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

He led the Broncos to five Super Bowl appearances. Perennial pro bowler, 1987 MVP. I thought he was overrated because he was never that accurate, but that overrated opinion was in contrast to GOAT being thrown around the in the late 90s. I won’t die on a hill, though, for Elway.

As I wrote earlier, you have about six guys with equal strength arguments to be 8-10 on the top 10 list. Elway, Marino, Bradshaw, Young, Rodgers, Brees, and maybe Favre. Within that group there is a heck of a lot of variation and polarizing views where they rank. Each of them has a fairly big negative as to why he shouldn’t be top 10.

Again you're listing accomplishments though as opposed to how well they played the position, no?
Elway & Aikman for that matter have almost no case if you take away rings. Also If SB or SB appearances matter that much Kelly has to be on that list? If Levy doesn't **** the bed and they make a FG, he's 2/2. Eli wouldn't be crashing any list bc of his rings.

Idk that stuff matters but not nearly as much as how they played and maneuvered through the position imo.

As for the bolded, big disagree. I think a little bias might be showing. Brees is miles ahead of Elway in terms of how they played the QB position. There's a considerable gap imo. Brees blows him away when you talk about production & efficiency.

Brees & Manning aren't respected or acknowledged enough among Pats fans imo. Brady's, Brees & Manning were very closely aligned, esp in the postseason from that graphic I posted.

I was thinking about starting a similar thread but work has been nuts. Something regarding the best from different eras.


Top 5 QB'S from ...
Start to 78-80

80's to 2004-2006

Then to now.

Otto was definitely a game changer back in the day.

 

[Pat the Pats Fan]

I know some stats are going to be thrown out there but how did Rodgers crack some of these top 10 lists?

Well, he’s on my top 10 list of biggest douchebags....so there’s that!

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Again you're listing accomplishments though as opposed to how well they played the position, no?
Elway & Aikman for that matter have almost no case if you take away rings. Also If SB or SB appearances matter that much Kelly has to be on that list? If Levy doesn't **** the bed and they make a FG, he's 2/2. Eli wouldn't be crashing any list bc of his rings.

Idk that stuff matters but not nearly as much as how they played and maneuvered through the position imo.

As for the bolded, big disagree. I think a little bias might be showing. Brees is miles ahead of Elway in terms of how they played the QB position. There's a considerable gap imo. Brees blows him away when you talk about production & efficiency.

Brees & Manning aren't respected or acknowledged enough among Pats fans imo. Brady's, Brees & Manning were very closely aligned, esp in the postseason from that graphic I posted.

I was thinking about starting a similar thread but work has been nuts. Something regarding the best from different eras.


Top 5 QB'S from ...
Start to 78-80

80's to 2004-2006

Then to now.

Otto was definitely a game changer back in the day.

Elway won 65% of his games. Over a long career, supporting casts tend to even out with some good ones and bad ones. Winning at that percentage suggests that his rushing ability helped to win a lot of games and just looking at passing stats don’t tell the whole story. He was a ridiculous 105-27 at home. Could counter that he was below .500 on the road, but for almost 15 years playing in Denver was an almost certain loss for every team.

I ranked Manning #6. I think that’s fair because 1-5 (Brady, Graham, Montana, Starr, Unitas) were essentially bulletproof, though Starr is polarizing in his ranking. Manning is the best of the rest. His career was incredible, but he marks the first time on the list that a QB has fairly large criticism as well, which was his lack of postseason magic. If someone put him at #5, that’s fine. I think it’s bias the other way to put him ahead of Graham, Brady, Montana, or Unitas.

Brees is a great QB, but the bar is higher now. Sure, in a vacuum he is better than a guy like Unitas, Staubach, etc. Compared to his own contemporaries, he is looking up at Brady and Manning, and he isn’t clearly ahead of Rodgers or Wilson. I’ve said he’s a top 12 guy and if someone put him in the top 10, I wouldn’t argue. I think Pats Fans tends to push back against horrible takes that Brees is a top 5 or even top 3 all-time QB. That’s ridiculous and absolute prisoner of the moment thinking. Brees has had many chances the last few years to change the narrative and has failed.

 

[Family]

Rod Smith went from UDFA to HOF worthy. Best WR from that team and it's not close. He was great, borderline great. Definitely one of the more underrated players ever.

McCaffrey was a route running machine. I've watched practices videos of him and learned so much from the position from his technique and discipline.

Probably a 120 TDs between them.

What about Shannon Sharpe? He was considered top tier-GOAT discussion for his position when he retired.

Davis was as talented as it got from that position.

Elway was 35 before Rod Smith and TD came into the league or Ed McCaffrey started.

Was Shannon Sharpe, a 1000 yards a year tight end the best receiver he ever had?
.
The others were there at the tail end of his career. Sort of makes my point that there was no one if they're the only ones listed.

 

[Tony2046]

Yea that's pretty much the top 10 with one major omission I know most disagree with me on.

I don't disagree with you. However I wouldn't put him on any spelling bee list unless we spotted him a "C" and "T".

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Elway won 65% of his games. Over a long career, supporting casts tend to even out with some good ones and bad ones. Winning at that percentage suggests that his rushing ability helped to win a lot of games and just looking at passing stats don’t tell the whole story. He was a ridiculous 105-27 at home. Could counter that he was below .500 on the road, but for almost 15 years playing in Denver was an almost certain loss for every team.

I ranked Manning #6. I think that’s fair because 1-5 (Brady, Graham, Montana, Starr, Unitas) were essentially bulletproof, though Starr is polarizing in his ranking. Manning is the best of the rest. His career was incredible, but he marks the first time on the list that a QB has fairly large criticism as well, which was his lack of postseason magic. If someone put him at #4, that’s fine. I think it’s bias the other way to put him ahead of Brady, Montana, or Unitas.

Brees is a great QB, but the bar is higher now. Sure, in a vacuum he is better than a guy like Unitas, Staubach, etc. Compared to his own contemporaries, he is looking up at Brady and Manning, and he isn’t clearly ahead of Rodgers or Wilson. I’ve said he’s a top 12 guy and if someone put him in the top 10, I wouldn’t argue. I think Pats Fans tends to push back against horrible takes that Brees is a top 5 or even top 3 all-time QB. That’s ridiculous and absolute prisoner of the moment thinking. Brees has had many chances the last few years to change the narrative and has failed.

Elways legs were definitely a big + over his career and helped him big time. I don't see how his winning % suggest they helped him or anything but they were a big asset. After that we disagree.

But even today, playing in Denver is challenging bc of the location though? Credit Elway but he doesn't change the air there or the fact some players struggle in Denver. That's Denver. Also team wins isn't a QB stat. We gotta stop citing wins like its a real stat.

I'm really not trying to **** on Elway. I loved watching him play. I just think he's very good. Compared to peers, comparing stats and it's a different picture imo.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Elways legs were definitely a big + over his career and helped him big time. I don't see how his winning % suggest they helped him or anything but they were a big asset. After that we disagree.

But e
ven today, playing in Denver is challenging bc of the location though? Credit Elway but he doesn't change the air there or the fact some players struggle in Denver. That's Denver. Also team wins isn't a QB stat. We gotta stop citing wins like its a real stat.

I'm really not trying to **** on Elway. I loved watching him play. I just think he's very good. Compared to peers, comparing stats and it's a different picture imo.

Elway > L. Jackson

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Elway was 35 before Rod Smith and TD came into the league or Ed McCaffrey started.

Was Shannon Sharpe, a 1000 yards a year tight end the best receiver he ever had?
.
The others were there at the tail end of his career. Sort of makes my point that there was no one if they're the only ones listed.

You asked, I answered.
Sharpe was arguably the best all-time TE from that era and an incredible weapon. 1000 yards, 3 times. 700+, 9 times.

I get your point but who were Favre's big weapons? Or Marino? Those QBs made names out of Duper, Clayton, Freeman and Driver. Kelly had some talent around him but he put similar/better #'s without household names at WR save Reed.

Again, ok he might not have had the greatest weapons but who exactly did he make better as a QB? Not trying to move the goalpost but I think it's a legit question concerning a top 10 list?

 

[Tony2046]

Elways legs were definitely a big + over his career and helped him big time. I don't see how his winning % suggest they helped him or anything but they were a big asset. After that we disagree.

But e
ven today, playing in Denver is challenging bc of the location though? Credit Elway but he doesn't change the air there or the fact some players struggle in Denver. That's Denver. Also team wins isn't a QB stat. We gotta stop citing wins like its a real stat.

I'm really not trying to **** on Elway. I loved watching him play. I just think he's very good. Compared to peers, comparing stats and it's a different picture imo.

Elway was a fun QB to watch back in the day and seemed to will his team to success year after year. I don't mind him being on someone's top ten. He's definitely close or should be. Another thing that's curious was during the pre salary cap era the NFC always seemed loaded at the top. Anyway he was definitely close.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Elway > L. Jackson

Jackson isn't a TO machine

Elway had like 50 INT, 35 fumbles & sacked over 100 times in his first 4 years.

He had crazy arm talent & legs. Only way he'd survive today's game. Look at his first few years. If he wasn't a high draft pick he might have been tossed for Trubisky .

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Elway was a fun QB to watch back in the day and seemed to will his team to success year after year. I don't mind him being on someone's top ten. He's definitely close or should be. Another thing that's curious was during the pre salary cap era the NFC always seemed loaded at the top. Anyway he was definitely close.

He was fun and I love that era. Like if you grew up on the 70's, 80's & 90's I completely understand why you favor those players. Just a different game, attitude & feel. Neckrolls, cigs on sidelines & beer at halftime.

Maybe I am biased, everyone is I guess but I feel like Brady, Manning, Montana, Young, Brees are a cut above the rest imo.

It'll be interesting to revisit this in 5-7 years. Brady, Brees, Ben, Eli, Rivers etc will be years gone. Wilson will be done or close to it. Mahomes is at his halfway point if he's healthy. And we get a solid opinion/look from this year and next years draft.

 

[Doctor DDS]

Wins and Losses are absolutely a QB stat and should carry similar weight to so called "individual stats" like passing yards or TD's. Wins and Losses are the only thing that transcends eras and major shifts in the rules. QB passing stats are influenced significantly by score of the game, weather, ability of other team and so on. Someone like Brees had spent his entire career in domes or other generally favorable weather conditions and is "catching up" so often that it is hard to clearly analyze his numbers. Nothing better for QB numbers than being behind by multiple scores at halftime. A TD pass with 3 minutes remaining to cut the lead to 14 does not carry the same weight as a TD to take the lead yet on a stat sheet they mean exactly the same. The QB has such a tremendous impact on the outcome of a game that when you aggregate their records over the years it is not surprising that the best win the most. W/L on a short sample size does not necessarily work as we've all seen individual seasons where a defense may carry a team (Dilfer) but when a QB wins year after year with different supporting casts and circumstances it certainly needs to be a major part of their legacy.

My Top 10 All-Time QBs must haves:
Stats superior than peers (Pro Bowls, MVPs, etc..)
Wins (regular season and post season)
Multiple signature moments

Only Brady, Montana and Staubach really check all 3 boxes for me in my lifetime.

 

[Biffins]

No issue with the top 5...The bottom 5 (with the exception of Staubach) however...

Starr is too high. Drop him lower. I'd move Staubach to be top 5.

Also I'd rather have Favre in top 10 than Rodgers. You need to first pick the best players from each era, and then compare them with each other and rank them. Just feels wrong to pick 3 from the same era (Brady, Manning, Rodgers) in top 10. That just smells of recency bias. If Brady and Manning are in top 10, you can't pick others from this era. Pick guys from 80s (Montana), 80-90s, (either Elway or Marino), 90s (maybe Young) 90s-00s (Favre), 00s-10s (Brady and Manning). Going further back we have 70s (Staubach and possibly Tarkenton), 60-70s (Unitas), 60s (Starr), 40s-50s (Graham), 30s-40s (Sammy Baugh). That will give you about 12-14 players than you can then whittle down. It also means you can't have both Brees and Rodgers.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Wins and Losses are absolutely a QB stat and should carry similar weight to so called "individual stats" like passing yards or TD's. Wins and Losses are the only thing that transcends eras and major shifts in the rules. QB passing stats are influenced significantly by score of the game, weather, ability of other team and so on. Someone like Brees had spent his entire career in domes or other generally favorable weather conditions and is "catching up" so often that it is hard to clearly analyze his numbers. Nothing better for QB numbers than being behind by multiple scores at halftime. A TD pass with 3 minutes remaining to cut the lead to 14 does not carry the same weight as a TD to take the lead yet on a stat sheet they mean exactly the same. The QB has such a tremendous impact on the outcome of a game that when you aggregate their records over the years it is not surprising that the best win the most. W/L on a short sample size does not necessarily work as we've all seen individual seasons where a defense may carry a team (Dilfer) but when a QB wins year after year with different supporting casts and circumstances it certainly needs to be a major part of their legacy.

My Top 10 All-Time QBs must haves:
Stats superior than peers (Pro Bowls, MVPs, etc..)
Wins (regular season and post season)
Multiple signature moments

Only Brady, Montana and Staubach really check all 3 boxes for me in my lifetime.

Wins & Loses are absolutely not a QB stat, this isn't golf.

QB's don't solely win or lose the game.

What about games where QB's play bad but their team still wins?

Low scoring games where both QB's are mediocre?

High scoring games where defense's get TO's?


Then you get to players like Eli, Flacco & Rivers who are comparable to Young & Moon when you just look at wins.

I'm sorry but it's just an ignorant statement to make when there are 50+ players that make up 3 different units.

Defense & ST impact the game tremendously. Teams have missed and went to playoffs and won Superbowls off both.

 

[Family]

Again, ok he might not have had the greatest weapons but who exactly did he make better as a QB? Not trying to move the goalpost but I think it's a legit question concerning a top 10 list?

He made the Denver Broncos better.

Before Elway, except for 1977, the Broncos never won a playoff game. With Elway they played in 5 Superbowls. After Elway they didn't win a playoff game for six years.

The three Amigos were nothing special, but Elway made them into something. It wasn't his fault the offense had no one. He still consistently won with little.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

He made the Denver Broncos better.

Before Elway, except for 1977, the Broncos never won a playoff game. With Elway they played in 5 Superbowls. After Elway they didn't win a playoff game for six years.

The three Amigos were nothing special, but Elway made them into something. It wasn't his fault the offense had no one. He still consistently won with little.

I think he's a very good QB. Just when comparing and talking about all-time, top 10. I think he's very overrated and doesn't belong in the discussions.

1)When was he ever the best QB in the league? Name me Elways prime years that make you go "Wow"!

2)He actually had pretty good teams as a whole. As you mentioned the 3 amigos and a defense in the late 80's that was legit.

He was very average and mediocre at times his first 10 years if we're being honest. Had everything in place later.

Also ...

Again this is about the best of the best ... All-time great.

Elway didn't get better during the playoffs. He was the same for the most part - 27/21 TD/INT - 54% - < 80 QB rating. And was 3/6 TD/INT in the 2 SB wins.

 

[State]

Favre helped cost the Pats the 19-0 season when he threw one of his really dumb picks vs the Giants in the NFC title game. No way the Packers would have beaten that Pats team.

That’s very true. I had forgotten about that.

That was a dreadful INT.

 

[lancerman]

Now that\\\\\\\'s a list I can agree on. Manning had nothing on Marino in my hate department...man could he sling it.

I think of it in what high end things did each QB do. Brady accomplishes the most at every level, championships, stats, individual accolades, longevity. Brady has it all. Montana is moderately behind him in most of those but ahead of everyone else. Manning was the most accomplished regular season QB ever. If we only looked at that, he’s GOAT. However playoffs were a real problem but he was good enough to get their and twice got carried. Unitas invented the modern QB game and has the championship success and individual success but he was more of a pioneer while the prior guys perfected his model. Marino was imo the perfect passer of the football and was the only guy I felt could do absolutely anything with the ball in his hands. Just didn’t always have the intelligence to maximize it.