Pats workout safety Su'a Cravens

[DarrylS]

Add Cravens info to the Rolodex, just in case.. not sure if every team does this, but the Pats do it throughout the season always trying to build the roster, always trying to make it better...

Cravens a second round pick, oh the horrors!! I was led to believe that the Patriots were the only team who could not evaluate 2nd round D-Backs...

 

[Angelpats]

Add Cravens info to the Rolodex, just in case.. not sure if every team does this, but the Pats do it throughout the season always trying to build the roster, always trying to make it better...

Cravens a second round pick, oh the horrors!! I was led to believe that the Patriots were the only team who could not evaluate 2nd round D-Backs...

There’s a difference between Cravens vs Dawson and Richards. Cravens was the best defensive players for the Trojans. His talents warrented the pick. He was a good value. Most of Bb picks that have good value turn out well, it’s when he really reaches that things usually turn bad.

 

[moosekill]

There’s a difference between Cravens vs Dawson and Richards. Cravens was the best defensive players for the Trojans. His talents warrented the pick. He was a good value. Most of Bb picks that have good value turn out well, it’s when he really reaches that things usually turn bad.

A second round pick who doesn't make it is a second round pick who doesn't make it. The draft is a crap shoot and no one is perfect.

 

[borg]

A second round pick who doesn't make it ........

......because of a lack of talent/ athleticism is an organizational failure.

 

[moosekill]

......because of a lack of talent/ athleticism is an organizational failure.

Not sure if you are arguing or agreeing. If the player is injured does that count too?

 

[moosekill]

So, it is ok to draft great athletes, even if in the end they aren't good enough to make the team? That doesn't count as a failure?

 

[Snooky97]

Bill has always loved those safety/LB hybrids.

He will fall in love with Simmons from Clemson..

 

[luuked]

That said, some good players have been let go because of players drafted ahead of them, like Kenny Moore and the recently signed Webster might another casualty.

Please tell me what players took away Webster's roster spot just because they were drafted ahead ?

Generally, I feel like you are turning the causality around. I don't think many (if any at all) players have ever been kept because of where they were drafted but because of traits that made BB draft them at that place. Now you can disagree with the evaluation of said traits or projected development but saying someone was kept just because of where he was drafted does a disservice to how the team usually does things.

 

[luuked]

Bill has always loved those safety/LB hybrids.

It makes all the sense in the world though.

Those can end up being the most versatile and impactful players on defense as they enable you to run all kinds of disguises and schemes. Finding someone who lines up as SS on one snap, as CB one play later and then as a LB on the third snap while playing all of it competently not giving the other team any mismatches they can exploit is the dream. And if they fail to develop you can usually at least salvage good-to-great ST contributions out of them.

 

[203Pat]

It makes all the sense in the world though.

Those can end up being the most versatile and impactful players on defense as they enable you to run all kinds of disguises and schemes. Finding someone who lines up as SS on one snap, as CB one play later and then as a LB on the third snap while playing all of it competently not giving the other team any mismatches they can exploit is the dream. And if they fail to develop you can usually at least salvage good-to-great ST contributions out of them.

I completely agree. I was hoping we made a run at Deone Buchanan in the off-season. Under Arians he was in that role then fell out of favor under Wilks last year. Not surprisingly though Arians brought him into Tampa.

 

[IllegalContact]

Bill has always loved those safety/LB hybrids.

because the roster has been littered with them?

 

[patchick]

There’s a difference between Cravens vs Dawson and Richards. Cravens was the best defensive players for the Trojans. His talents warrented the pick. He was a good value. Most of Bb picks that have good value turn out well, it’s when he really reaches that things usually turn bad.

I'm pretty certain that's a matter of perception, not reality. Some years ago I actually did an analysis of when Pats picks were taken vs. their consensus "value," and found that the reach vs. steal designation had absolutely no predictive value in forecasting how the pick would turn out.

It feels like it does because we blame the team more when a "reach" goes bad than when a "good value" does. Chad Jackson and Darius Butler were steals; Logan Mankins, Jerod Mayo and Sebastian Vollmer were reaches. Etc.

 

[203Pat]

because the roster has been littered with them?

Littered? No but through Bill’s tenure he seems to be looking for someone who can play that role. He’s tried different safety/LB hybrids from Don Davis, the Tank Johnson signing, Jordan Richards, KGH and now potential interest in Cravens.

 

[luuked]

I'm pretty certain that's a matter of perception, not reality. Some years ago I actually did an analysis of when Pats picks were taken vs. their consensus "value," and found that the reach vs. steal designation had absolutely no predictive value in forecasting how the pick would turn out.

It feels like it does because we blame the team more when a "reach" goes bad than when a "good value" does. Chad Jackson and Darius Butler were steals; Logan Mankins, Jerod Mayo and Sebastian Vollmer were reaches. Etc.

The thing is that there is no such thing as a reach really.

Reach relative to what? The opinion of Mel Kiper and other meaningless draftniks? Who cares what their opinion is. If everyone is thinking alike nobody is thinking.

If your team doesn't just get generalized scouting reports from companies but invests resources to do college scouting and evaluations themselves then the opinion of that room is really what matters.

And if all the folks on twitter and tv evaluate someone one way but your internal metrics say otherwise you go with your own stuff. At worst you gain some data points on blindspots in your own method and hopefully improve it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The thing is that there is no such thing as a reach really.

Reach relative to what? The opinion of Mel Kiper and other meaningless draftniks? Who cares what their opinion is. If everyone is thinking alike nobody is thinking.

If your team doesn't just get generalized scouting reports from companies but invests resources to do college scouting and evaluations themselves then the opinion of that room is really what matters.

And if all the folks on twitter and tv evaluate someone one way but your internal metrics say otherwise you go with your own stuff. At worst you gain some data points on blindspots in your own method and hopefully improve it.

We've learned the NEP have a modified way of assigning value to draft prospects which is specific to their scheme and culture. We've also learned they place greater emphasis on traits and qualities that other organizations have devalued. Lastly their "board" consists of less players than the average NFL team's draft board.

I and 99.9% of the people on this board are in no position (just like Kiper, McShay, etc) to say the NEP "reached" on a pick.

We are in a position to say the pick was a bust, which is fair.

 

[patchick]

The thing is that there is no such thing as a reach really.

Exhibit A: on draft day this year, the huge story was the Giants' massive reach for Daniel Jones at #6, with Dwayne Haskins still on the board.

Not a game has been played since then, but Jones has already been upgraded from reach to steal.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

A second round pick who doesn't make it is a second round pick who doesn't make it. The draft is a crap shoot and no one is perfect.

I would add,

A second round pick who doesn't make it because he is far outplayed by later-drafted (or even undrafted), hungrier players at the same position...

indicates an organization that can recognize and develop under-drafted talent, fairly assess their higher value and greater potential, and then cut bait on the higher-paid and under-performing 2nd round pick, without giving a rats ass about what it "looks like" to the armchair experts.

 

[Urgent]

Su'a Cravens and how it fell apart in Washington

In-depth article on Cravens' experience with Washington.
"General weirdness" is pretty unfair. "Lingering post-concussion symptoms" is much more accurate.
This is a person whose personality dramatically shifted after a bad concussion - issues with anxiety and paranoia that he recognized, but could not overcome. A lack of clear communication and understanding between the player and the team on whether he was coming back from a 30-day leave due to the post-concussion diagnosis. As a hybrid safety/LB, he was a smaller player filling a larger-player's role, and got pretty beat up - concussion, elbow, knee.
You listen to some of the stories of the anguish some of these players face from rehab, and the challenge of overcoming the personality symptoms from concussions, and there are definitely similarities.
Physically talented player, apparently dealing with significant family issues while suffering from mood changes from the brain damage.
Summarizing this story as "general weirdness" in a tweet is pretty catty.

 

[203Pat]

Su'a Cravens and how it fell apart in Washington

In-depth article on Cravens' experience with Washington.
"General weirdness" is pretty unfair. "Lingering post-concussion symptoms" is much more accurate.
This is a person whose personality dramatically shifted after a bad concussion - issues with anxiety and paranoia that he recognized, but could not overcome. A lack of clear communication and understanding between the player and the team on whether he was coming back from a 30-day leave due to the post-concussion diagnosis. As a hybrid safety/LB, he was a smaller player filling a larger-player's role, and got pretty beat up - concussion, elbow, knee.
You listen to some of the stories of the anguish some of these players face from rehab, and the challenge of overcoming the personality symptoms from concussions, and there are definitely similarities.
Physically talented player, apparently dealing with significant family issues while suffering from mood changes from the brain damage.
Summarizing this story as "general weirdness" in a tweet is pretty catty.

Probably a term given by someone in the Washington organization. One of the most dysfunctional there is.

 

[Angelpats]

Please tell me what players took away Webster's roster spot just because they were drafted ahead ?

Generally, I feel like you are turning the causality around. I don't think many (if any at all) players have ever been kept because of where they were drafted but because of traits that made BB draft them at that place. Now you can disagree with the evaluation of said traits or projected development but saying someone was kept just because of where he was drafted does a disservice to how the team usually does things.

I just have a feeling Webster is going to be like Moore if the colts. In his case it’s not because of draft position but roster spot. One of those lineman we brought in will likely fail and cost us the traded pick and maybe a potential starter, not just Webster, but maybe crossen. I know we need a lineman but it’s discouraging to see our castoffs turn into good starters, such as le blank in philly.

As for players kept just because of draft position: jake bequette. All teams do that, patriots no exception.